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What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
03-10-2020, 01:31 PM
Post: #1
What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
Many sources say that the ENTER behavior introduced with the 48 (the key does not push the stack) is "used by later HP calculators", but this (ambiguous) statement isn't quite right: it's used by some later HP calculators (e.g., it's not used in the 35s).

What models use this behavior? Is there a rationale for it (or for introducing it and then not using it in some later models)? Are there any options to enable or disable it on any models (e.g., as on PCalc)?
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03-10-2020, 03:31 PM
Post: #2
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
That's the RPL stack behavior, which applies mainly to the 28, 48, 49, and 50 models.
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03-10-2020, 04:00 PM
Post: #3
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
Any thoughts on the reasons for the switch to that behavior, and then back to the "old" behavior?
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03-10-2020, 04:32 PM
Post: #4
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-10-2020 04:00 PM)Orome Wrote:  Any thoughts on the reasons for the switch to that behavior, and then back to the "old" behavior?

Because the 35S wasn't RPL. Smile It was the old 4-level RPN stack (and ENTER behavior) like the 33S and 32SII it succeeded. The 12C and 17B also stuck with the older RPN, despite still being in production long after the 28 and 48 came out. It's just two different styles with differing levels of complexity in usage, and they both have their target audiences.
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03-10-2020, 04:40 PM
Post: #5
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
Dave Britten Wrote:  Because the 35S wasn't RPL...

I'm wondering more from a UX perspective whether there was a motivation for it

I know some people have strong feelings about it too, so even of the behavior is effectively a side effect of using RPL, it has UX implications as a feature on its own (and presumably could easily have been implemented either way regardless of RPN vs RPL).

Dave Britten Wrote:  It's just two different styles with differing levels of complexity in usage, and they both have their target audiences.

So that's really my question: what were considered the "styles" and "audiences" targeted by each behavior for ENTER.
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03-10-2020, 06:57 PM
Post: #6
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
I don't have an answer to your question but I may have information that can help you answer it.

The "HP-48 style" enter is used on calculators that deal with...
  • A Command Line (Entry Line in Prime's case)
  • The stack deals with many, many different types of objects.
  • Tend to have a large stack.

The "old" behavior, as you call it, is used on calculators that have...
  • 4 or 3 level stacks.
  • Input numbers directly on the stack through the X-register.

I believe these are the main differences that would influence the different ENTER key behaviors. I can't think of any more at the moment.

Keep in mind HP never abandoned either styles and both are used in today's HP calculators.
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03-10-2020, 07:33 PM
Post: #7
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
Perhaps reading a copy of Bill Wickes' HP-28 Insights might yield a good explanation for the birth of RPL "straight from the horse's mouth". Another shorter explanation might be from Bill's August 1987 HP Journal article "An Evolutionary RPN Calculator for Technical Professionals".

Jake
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03-10-2020, 08:56 PM
Post: #8
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
When system gets more complex, consistency is preferred over keystrokes count.

see Paul Dales old posts ...
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-19...l#pid18041
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-19...l#pid18094
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03-10-2020, 10:02 PM
Post: #9
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
Albert Chan Wrote:  When system gets more complex, consistency is preferred over keystrokes count.

It's funny I never saw it as a consistency thing. I was once convinced that the 48-style ENTER made more sense, but now I can't for the life of me recall why I thought that. Now the other way makes more sense to me.

Carsen Wrote:  I don't have an answer to your question but I may have information that can help you answer it.
...
I believe these are the main differences that would influence the different ENTER key behaviors. I can't think of any more at the moment.

That's a big help. I hadn't really thought of it that way before, but that makes a lot of sense from a UX perspective.
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03-10-2020, 11:00 PM
Post: #10
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-10-2020 07:33 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  Perhaps reading a copy of Bill Wickes' HP-28 Insights might yield a good explanation for the birth of RPL "straight from the horse's mouth". Another shorter explanation might be from Bill's August 1987 HP Journal article "An Evolutionary RPN Calculator for Technical Professionals".

Jake

Also, read "HP41 / HP48 Transitions", Chapter 2. from the same horse (Bill Wickes). As this issue was one of the obstacles to many 41 users transitioning to RPL, Bill covers it in good detail and is probably the best coverage on the topic. By coincidence, I was just re-reading this while on vacation last week, the explanation of the subtleties involved is excellent.

Both books are included in the MoHPC document set, here:

https://www.hpmuseum.org/cd/cddesc.htm

As you're new here, I strongly recommend you get this collection. There are more than 1700 documents/manuals/books/guides/etc. and nearly every topic that comes up eventually leads to pointers to docs in the set.

--Bob Prosperi
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03-11-2020, 03:09 PM
Post: #11
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
rprosperi Wrote:  I strongly recommend you get this collection.

Done!
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03-11-2020, 04:44 PM
Post: #12
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-11-2020 03:09 PM)Orome Wrote:  
rprosperi Wrote:  I strongly recommend you get this collection.

Done!

Decisive, quick, wise, and clear evidence of HP addiction.

You'll fit in here, so welcome!

--Bob Prosperi
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03-11-2020, 05:06 PM
Post: #13
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-10-2020 11:00 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  By coincidence, I was just re-reading this while on vacation last week, the explanation of the subtleties involved is excellent.
Wow, that's my kind of vacations, not sure my wife would agree though. Wink
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03-12-2020, 02:10 AM
Post: #14
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-11-2020 05:06 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  
(03-10-2020 11:00 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  By coincidence, I was just re-reading this while on vacation last week, the explanation of the subtleties involved is excellent.
Wow, that's my kind of vacations, not sure my wife would agree though. Wink

She got the massage and spa treatment, I got to read Wickes 41/48 Transitions and another book about the development history of the Lockheed XF-90 Fighter. Each of us believes we got the better part of the deal. Been a long time since I've had such a great vacation. Oh, we got to see Cancun, Mexico too.

--Bob Prosperi
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03-12-2020, 12:55 PM
Post: #15
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
rprosperi Wrote:  ... "HP41 / HP48 Transitions" ... included in the MoHPC ...

Any idea where a print version might be available? It seems to be unavailable from the usual general book places.
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03-12-2020, 01:56 PM
Post: #16
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-12-2020 12:55 PM)Orome Wrote:  
rprosperi Wrote:  ... "HP41 / HP48 Transitions" ... included in the MoHPC ...

Any idea where a print version might be available? It seems to be unavailable from the usual general book places.
   
Here it is, right from my bookshelf. :)
NFS, sorry.

Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
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03-12-2020, 04:38 PM
Post: #17
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-12-2020 01:56 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Here it is, right from my bookshelf. Smile
Show off! Big Grin ... more HP-48 books here
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03-12-2020, 11:44 PM
Post: #18
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-12-2020 12:55 PM)Orome Wrote:  Any idea where a print version might be available? It seems to be unavailable from the usual general book places.

It took me many years to get my copy, finally got it middle of last year. It's pretty rare and usually expensive, I've seen it listed for over $200, but if you're willing to wait a while, you can probably still get it for under $100. You're more likely to get a better deal on eBay believe it or not, on ABE/Amazon it will almost certainly be much higher.

But I know there is a copy in Milan, that.... Oh wait. Sorry, no... never mind...

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03-13-2020, 08:15 AM
Post: #19
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-12-2020 11:44 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  
(03-12-2020 12:55 PM)Orome Wrote:  Any idea where a print version might be available? It seems to be unavailable from the usual general book places.

It took me many years to get my copy, finally got it middle of last year. It's pretty rare and usually expensive, I've seen it listed for over $200, but if you're willing to wait a while, you can probably still get it for under $100. You're more likely to get a better deal on eBay believe it or not, on ABE/Amazon it will almost certainly be much higher.

Yes, I concur: I've got mine from eBay for well under $100, but that was several years ago.

(03-12-2020 11:44 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  But I know there is a copy in Milan, that.... Oh wait. Sorry, no... never mind...

Oooops: just coughed on it! Now it's gone 'viral', you know...

Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
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03-13-2020, 07:52 PM
Post: #20
RE: What models use "HP-48 style" enter?
(03-12-2020 04:38 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  
(03-12-2020 01:56 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Here it is, right from my bookshelf. Smile
Show off! Big Grin ... more HP-48 books here

About books, these are the prices that I have paid for the HP-48 books that I have in my collection:

HP-48S/SX English Books:
Code:
Price Paid/Year  HP/ISBN/other  PubDate  Description
---------------  -------------  -------  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 00048-90058    04/1990  HP 48SX Owner's Manual, Volume 1, Hewlett Packard
                 00048-90059    04/1990  HP 48SX Owner's Manual, Volume 2, Hewlett Packard
                 00048-90053    07/1990  HP 48 Programmer's Reference Manual, Hewlett Packard
$19.95 USD/2018  1-879828-00-6  05/1990  The HP 48 Handbook, James Donnelly, Armstrong Publishing
$62.00 USD/2013  0-9625258-2-0  07/1990  HP41/HP48 Transitions, William Wickes, Larken Publications
                 0-931011-31-0  11/1990  An Easy Course in Using the HP-48SX, Dan Coffin, Chris Coffin & John W. Loux, Grapevine Publications
Code:
$74.00 USD/2013  0-9625258-3-9  02/1991  HP 48 Insights Part I: Principles & Programming, William Wickes, Larken Publications
$31.00 USD/2013  0-9625258-4-7  01/1992  HP 48 Insights Part II: Problem-Solving Resources, William Wickes, Larken Publications
$26.50 USD/2014  0-201-56325-8  10/1991  HP48 Programming Examples, D.R. Mackenroth, Addison-Wesley Publishing
$13.40 USD/2013  0-02-340599-6  --/1991  Calculus with the Symbol-Manipulating Calculators HP-28S and HP-48SX, Lynn E. Garner, Dellen Publishing
                 0-931011-33-7  01/1992  HP 48 Graphics, R. Ray Depew, Grapevine Publications
$12.50 USD/2014  0-07-059179-2  --/1992  Discovering Calculus with the HP-28 and the HP-48, Robert T. Smith & Roland B. Minton, McGraw-Hill
$30.00 USD/2012  0-7872-2089-2  --/1994  Mastering the HP 48G/GX, Thomas Adams, Kendall/Hunt Publishing

HP-48G/GX English Books:
Code:
Price Paid/Year  HP/ISBN/other  PubDate  Description
---------------  -------------  -------  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 00048-90104    05/1993  HP 48G Series User's Guide, Hewlett Packard
                 00048-90105    04/1993  HP 48G Series Quick Start Guide, Hewlett Packard
                 00048-90136    07/1993  HP 48G Series Advanced User's Reference Manual, Hewlett Packard
$22.00 USD/2014  00048-90142    11/1994  HP 48G Series Message Booklet, Hewlett Packard
$15.00 USD/2013  1-879828-05-7  06/1993  The HP 48 Pocket Book, James Donnelly, Armstrong Publishing
$28.00 USD/2013  1-879828-04-9  06/1993  The HP 48 Handbook, James Donnelly, Armstrong Publishing
Code:
$56.00 USD/2013  0-9625258-5-5  09/1993  HP 48 Insights Part I: Principles & Programming, HP 48G/GX Edition, William Wickes, Larken Publications
                 0-931011-41-8  10/1993  An Easy Course in Using and Programming the HP 48G/GX, Chris Coffin, Grapevine Publications
$42.00 USD/2013  0-931011-42-6  10/1993  Graphics on the HP 48G/GX, R. Ray Depew, Grapevine Publications
$42.00 USD/2013  0-931011-44-2  09/1995  Calculus on the HP 48G/GX, Dan Coffin, Grapevine Publications
                 0-931011-43-4  11/1995  Algebra and Pre-Calculus on the HP 48G/GX, Dan Coffin, Grapevine Publications
 $8.50 USD/2014  1-881018-18-0  --/1996  Jump Start the HP-48G/GX, Thomas Adams and Merle C. Potter, Great Lakes Press
                 X0008ERNEP     --/2006  The Definitive User's Guide to the HP 48g/49g/50g Calculators, Thomas B. Barber, Samson Cables

HP-48S/SX French Books:
Code:
Price Paid/Year  HP/ISBN/other  PubDate  Description
---------------  -------------  -------  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 20.00 EUR/2014  2-908791-02-1  --/1990  La Maîtrise de la HP-48SX - Tome 1: Programmation et Exercices, Jean-Michel Ferrard, D3I Diffusion
 13.21 EUR/2014  2-908791-06-4  --/1990  La Maîtrise de la HP-48SX - Tome 2: Programmation et Applications, Jean-Michel Ferrard, D3I Diffusion
 20.00 EUR/2014  2-87892-003-1  --/1991  Voyage au Centre de la HP 48, Paul Courbis & Sébastien Lalande, Angkor
  5.00 EUR/2014  2-909737-14-4  --/1996  Assembleur sur HP 48 - Aspects pratiques & Programmation, Guy Toublanc & Christophe Nguyen, Éditions Pole

HP-48G/GX French Books:
Code:
Price Paid/Year  HP/ISBN/other  PubDate  Description
---------------  -------------  -------  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  7.70 EUR/2014  2-908791-10-2  09/1993  Les Secrets de la HP 48G/GX - Tome 1 - 6000 Bonnes Adresses, Jean-Michel Ferrard, D3I Diffusion
 10.00 EUR/2014  2-908791-11-0  09/1993  Les Secrets de la HP 48G/GX - Tome 2 - Externals et Assembleur, Jean-Michel Ferrard, D3I Diffusion
  5.00 EUR/2014  2-909737-14-4  --/1996  Assembleur sur HP 48 - Aspects pratiques & Programmation, Guy Toublanc & Christophe Nguyen, Éditions Pole
 12.00 EUR/2014  2-908791-12-9  09/1994  Assembleur sur HP48 - Initiation, programmation, et électronique, P. Kezirian, D3I Diffusion
 15.00 EUR/2014  2-10-002358-6  --/1995  HP 48 faites vox jeux en assembleur, Loïc Fieux, Dunod
Code:
 10.00 EUR/2014  2-10-003037-X  --/1996  HP 48 Le livre du programmeur en RPL et RPL-système - Initiation et références, Loïc Fieux, Dunod
                 2-909737-12-8  --/1996  Graphisme sur HP 48G/GX, Jean-Michel Ferrard, Éditions Pole
                 2-909737-16-0  --/1998  Jeux & Problèmes en Chaîne sur HP 48G/GX/G+, Robert Pulluard, Éditions Pole
                 2-909737-33-0  --/1999  Calcul Formel sur HP 48 GX et G+ avec Erable 3, Benoît Darcy & Bernard Parisse, Éditions Pole
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