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Surveying and 400 degree circles.
08-06-2015, 07:12 PM
Post: #1
Surveying and 400 degree circles.
I was surprised that the HP Prime modes for angular measurement are only sexagesimal degrees and radians.

In surveying it is very common to use 400 degree circles. Most calculators with basic functions incorporate this feature... a basic Casio fx 82 had this feature.

Or maybe I did not find how to do it ...
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08-06-2015, 07:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 07:58 PM by Tim Wessman.)
Post: #2
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
It is not supported at the moment.

However, I am curious where you are that it is "very common in surverying". When I did quite a bit of reasearch on this ~8 years ago I did not find a single land surveyor that used gradians anywhere in europe...

The only use I could find was old, historical documents - nothing new.

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
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08-06-2015, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 10:48 PM by Katie Wasserman.)
Post: #3
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
(08-06-2015 07:57 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  It is not supported at the moment.

However, I am curious where you are that it is "very common in surverying". When I did quite a bit of reasearch on this ~8 years ago I did not find a single land surveyor that used gradians anywhere in europe...

The only use I could find was old, historical documents - nothing new.


Here's a discussion about this that you started 5 years ago. It seems to conclude that grads are still used in France (maybe elsewhere in Europe) and in polar aviation at least. It might not be "very common" but it sounds like it should be including in HP's flagship calculator certainly.

-katie

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08-09-2015, 01:12 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2016 11:46 AM by matthiaspaul.)
Post: #4
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
I too would like to suggest to support a GRAD mode (full circle = 400 gon) and corresponding conversion functions. To me, it looks really odd for a high-end calculator to not support it. It certainly has its uses outside of surveying and mining as well, not so much to present end results in gon, but just for quick back-and-forth conversion estimations (for the correspondence of a quadrant (∟) or quarter turn with 100 gon and "percent").

In addition to this, I am an advocate of a forth mode named TURN (full circle = 1), otherwise analogous to the DEG, RAD, GRAD modes. In my experience (I implemented it in a software calculator I wrote a long time ago), this can be very handy in practise, and it might be a nice novel feature in HP calculators. (It is also on my ToDo list for the WP 34s.)

Greetings,

Matthias

EDIT: See also:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-475...l#pid42413
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-542...l#pid48945


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08-09-2015, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2015 10:48 AM by matthiaspaul.)
Post: #5
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
For those curious about a "TURN" mode, see this article for why it would be quite useful to have such a mode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn (geometry)

As a programmer I would also like to see a BRAD (binary radian) mode (with full circle = 256).

Yet another useful addition would be an AMIL (angular mil) mode. Since there are different standards for the latter (full circle = 6000, 6283, 6300, 6400), AMIL would use a user-selectable conversion factor. Perhaps, instead of AMIL one mode with a freely selectable factor would be even better as there are other units of angles as well, so a AUSR mode could catch them all (some examples: full circle = 4 (quad), 6 (Babylonian sextant), 24 (hour angle), 32 (point), 60 (hexacontade), 1/60 radian (diameter part), 600, 4000, 6000, 6283, 6300, 6400, 21600 (minute of arc), 1296000 (second of arc), ...).

Greetings,

Matthias


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08-09-2015, 10:58 AM
Post: #6
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
Without a dedicated Grad or Turn mode you can still work with grads (or gons) or turns as they are available in the Units>Angle menu. May be less convenient than a dedicated mode but possible.
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08-11-2015, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 08-11-2015 12:42 PM by toperos.)
Post: #7
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
(08-06-2015 07:57 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  It is not supported at the moment.

However, I am curious where you are that it is "very common in surverying". When I did quite a bit of reasearch on this ~8 years ago I did not find a single land surveyor that used gradians anywhere in europe...

The only use I could find was old, historical documents - nothing new.

As a spanish civil engineer student I can say in my country it is very common to use gradians in surveying.
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08-11-2015, 04:18 PM
Post: #8
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
(08-06-2015 07:57 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  It is not supported at the moment.

However, I am curious where you are that it is "very common in surverying". When I did quite a bit of reasearch on this ~8 years ago I did not find a single land surveyor that used gradians anywhere in europe...

The only use I could find was old, historical documents - nothing new.


Thanks for your time Tim. I am a Spanish Industrial Engineer

I'm certainly not an expert in topography, and could not say what the current situation. But in the late 80s, early 90s when in college, I can say that the unit of measure we used in the subject of surveying were grads, among other things ease of use, and because most of the equipment measuring had indications only grads.

It is also true that those devices were very old but once in the working world, for our daily work acquired a total station Topcon brand whose indications were also grads and I mean an actual total station with digital display.

In my opinion (only my opinion), the current situation is that modern devices capture measurement data and have the ability to transform them into files able to communicate with CAD software and this way is unusual having to convert the captured data in a cloud of points represented in a coordinate system. But when it is necessary to have captured data written on paper to operate them manually or convert the point cloud it is when we need to have grads in the HP Prime.

I really do not know which is the measuring system of modern equipment, but as toperos confirms, seems has not changed in recent years.

Sorry with my English...
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08-11-2015, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 08-11-2015 05:27 PM by Tim Wessman.)
Post: #9
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
(08-11-2015 04:18 PM)tecnovelez Wrote:  Thanks for your time Tim. I am a Spanish Industrial Engineer

I'm certainly not an expert in topography, and could not say what the current situation. But in the late 80s, early 90s when in college, I can say that the unit of measure we used in the subject of surveying were grads, among other things ease of use, and because most of the equipment measuring had indications only grads.

It is also true that those devices were very old but once in the working world, for our daily work acquired a total station Topcon brand whose indications were also grads and I mean an actual total station with digital display.

In my opinion (only my opinion), the current situation is that modern devices capture measurement data and have the ability to transform them into files able to communicate with CAD software and this way is unusual having to convert the captured data in a cloud of points represented in a coordinate system. But when it is necessary to have captured data written on paper to operate them manually or convert the point cloud it is when we need to have grads in the HP Prime.

I really do not know which is the measuring system of modern equipment, but as toperos confirms, seems has not changed in recent years.

Sorry with my English...

Hello,

Thanks for your comments and everyone else. It is rather interesting because I worked with a company who did research for us on this subject and they came back with the conclusion.

I know there are some newer (~10 years ago or so) surveying instruments that have now dropped support for grads.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do...

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
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08-12-2015, 06:06 AM
Post: #10
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
In addition it is often used at univerity. If only for tests - I would expect a calculator specifically designed for students to have gon support. I was wondering why it is not supported.
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08-12-2015, 03:41 PM
Post: #11
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
(08-12-2015 06:06 AM)leprechaun Wrote:  I was wondering why it is not supported.

The HP code always did. However, the CAS did not.

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
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08-13-2015, 10:51 AM
Post: #12
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
In settings I only have rad and deg. Latest firmware. Hacks or workarounds by using unit conversions is really not useful?
A lot of classwork and tests is done in gon. At least in education gon plays a big role. It is interessting to hear that specialists did not mention that.
But if there is a way to switch to gon yet that is cool! How is it done? Could you elaborate?
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09-29-2015, 02:38 AM (This post was last modified: 09-29-2015 02:38 AM by Brad Barton.)
Post: #13
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
I thought you all might find this interesting. I stumbled across it while reading Joe Horn's column "The Titan File" Jan/Feb 1987, from my recently acquired PPC documents DVD. Lol!


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10-01-2015, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2015 06:22 AM by Joe Horn.)
Post: #14
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
(09-29-2015 02:38 AM)Brad Barton Wrote:  I thought you all might find this interesting. I stumbled across it while reading Joe Horn's column "The Titan File" Jan/Feb 1987, from my recently acquired PPC documents DVD. Lol!

"Japanese angles"! BWAH Hah hah! What goofball wrote that?!?

<0|ɸ|0>
-Joe-
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10-01-2015, 09:09 AM
Post: #15
RE: Surveying and 400 degree circles.
I am a surveyor in Spain, and yes, throughout Europe working with grads
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