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41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
08-10-2016, 03:09 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2016 04:08 AM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #21
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-09-2016 07:33 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Sylvain, are you sure you don't have other HP-IL devices in the loop? Try with the plotter alone.

Done
Result: same error

(08-09-2016 07:33 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  There is a "well-known" bug of the Plotter module that can cause this effect, see the addendum in the manual on TOS for instance.

I have read the addendum, the plotter is the only device in the loop and did a "1 SELECT"
Result: same error

I am doing a diff on the source code ...

Sylvain

Edit: LINH related, preliminary bugs found, not tested yet, too late for plotter test, wife will kill me Wink
Code:
=== ====================================== ======================================
bug current                                correction
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
    LBL "X*"                               LBL "X*"
    ...                                    ...
--> RDN - R^   CHS  E +                    RDN - R^ / CHS  E + 
    FIX 1 CLA "DATEN " ARCL X AVIEW        FIX 1 CLA "DATEN " ARCL X AVIEW 
--> INT  E3 /  E + STO 00 STO 30           INT  E3 *  E + STO 00 STO 30 
    RTN                                    RTN
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
    LBL "Y*"                               LBL "Y*"
    ...                                    ...
--> "Y-DIF?" PROMPT STO 34                 "Y-DIF?" PROMPT STO 44
    RTN                                    RTN 
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
--> LBL "H"                                LBL "Q" 
    SF 17 GTO 43                           SF 17 GTO 43 
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
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08-10-2016, 05:15 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2016 05:17 AM by Ángel Martin.)
Post: #22
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-10-2016 03:09 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  I am doing a diff on the source code ...

Edit: LINH related, preliminary bugs found, not tested yet, too late for plotter test, wife will kill me Wink
Code:
=== ====================================== ======================================
bug current                                correction
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
    LBL "X*"                               LBL "X*"
    ...                                    ...
--> RDN - R^   CHS  E +                    RDN - R^ / CHS  E + 
    FIX 1 CLA "DATEN " ARCL X AVIEW        FIX 1 CLA "DATEN " ARCL X AVIEW 
--> INT  E3 /  E + STO 00 STO 30           INT  E3 *  E + STO 00 STO 30 
    RTN                                    RTN
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
    LBL "Y*"                               LBL "Y*"
    ...                                    ...
--> "Y-DIF?" PROMPT STO 34                 "Y-DIF?" PROMPT STO 44
    RTN                                    RTN 
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
--> LBL "H"                                LBL "Q" 
    SF 17 GTO 43                           SF 17 GTO 43 
--- -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------

Well, looks there's some obvious differences that suggests errors in the code... will correct them and send you the image back (or can you do that on your end as well using the Excel sheet I sent you? The compile macro is on it as well...)

Both LBL "*X" and LBL "*Y" are shared by different programs, I guess the similarities were not identical in the registers used :-(
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08-10-2016, 07:37 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2016 07:40 AM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #23
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-10-2016 05:15 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Well, looks there's some obvious differences that suggests errors in the code... will correct them and send you the image back

It would seem prudent to wait after I have made some tests.
I have copied the programs from ROM to main RAM, made the modifications to them and are ready to be tested later today.

(08-10-2016 05:15 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  (or can you do that on your end as well using the Excel sheet I sent you? The compile macro is on it as well...)

I have throw out Microsoft from my world more than 10 years ago with the exception of one VM running a plain version of Windows 7 32 bits for HP stuff applications
and one installation of Microsoft Office 2011 for Mac (equivalent to Microsoft Office 2010 for Windows) to open legacy documents, everything else runs on macOS, Linux and BSD's.
Microsoft Office 2011 for Mac does support VBA applications, so may be it will work ...

I just tried to run the CreateRom macro and I get several errors.
I have replaced Set SaveAsDialog = Application.FileDialog(msoFileDialogSaveAs) by SaveAsDialog = Application.Dialogs(xlDialogSaveAs).Show
because the FileDialog does not exist in the macOS implementation of Excel but I still get other errors, it's late (3:24), I will give it a second look after a couple hours of sleep.

(08-10-2016 05:15 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Both LBL "*X" and LBL "*Y" are shared by different programs, I guess the similarities were not identical in the registers used :-(

May be or may be not, I have not looked at the other programs yet, but if you say so, I take your word.

Sylvain
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08-10-2016, 04:20 PM
Post: #24
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
Hello Angel,

When I ran the page 33 test this morning I got the same error.

Here is my small investigation ...

I launched the sniffer to look at what was going on on the wire.
Code:
UNL     RFC     
AAU     RFC     
AAD  2  LAD 01  RFC     
DAB 49  DAB 50  DAB 20  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 31 DAB 30  DAB 38  DAB 30  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 37  DAB 36  DAB 30 DAB 30  DAB 0D  DAB 0A  DAB 4F  DAB 45  DAB 3B  UNL     RFC     
TAD 01  RFC     
DAB 33  DAB 0D  DAB 0A  NRD     ETO     UNT     RFC     
AAU     RFC     
AAD  2  TAD 01  RFC     
DAB 60  ETO     LAD 01  RFC     
UNL     RFC

Translation
Code:
- loop management
- set plotter as listener
- send data to the plotter -> IP 0,0,10800,7600[CR][LF]
- plotter signify an error -> OE; -> Output Error
- set plotter as talker
- get error (part 1) from the plotter -> 0x33 [CR][LF] -> Code 3 = Out-of-range parameters
- get error (part 2) from the plotter -> 0x60 -> ??? do not known what it mean,  I will investigate later
- loop management

The error is related to the HP-GL IP command sent by the 82184A LIMIT function.
The parameters at LBL 50 are 0 270 0 190
Some math: 10800 / 270 = 40 and 7600 / 190 = 40 -> ok, my scale is 40
I then opened the HP-7470A manual for page limits at page 2-2 -> US = 191 x 257 mm & A4 = 191 x 272 mm
Aha! my plotter was set to US so the maximum was 191x40=7640 by 257x40=10280 and the LIMIT is sending 10800
I then changed the switch to A4, power down/up the plotter to make it read the switch change,
find A4 paper sheets which is pretty rare in North-America, rerun the example and voila my updated RAM version works.

My next steps is to do a diff on all the source code and run the examples as I finish sections.
I will keep you posted as I progress.

Best regards,

Sylvain
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08-10-2016, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2016 11:58 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #25
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-10-2016 07:37 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  
(08-10-2016 05:15 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  (or can you do that on your end as well using the Excel sheet I sent you? The compile macro is on it as well...)

I have throw out Microsoft from my world more than 10 years ago with the exception of one VM running a plain version of Windows 7 32 bits for HP stuff applications
and one installation of Microsoft Office 2011 for Mac (equivalent to Microsoft Office 2010 for Windows) to open legacy documents, everything else runs on macOS, Linux and BSD's.
Microsoft Office 2011 for Mac does support VBA applications, so may be it will work ...

I just tried to run the CreateRom macro and I get several errors.
I have replaced Set SaveAsDialog = Application.FileDialog(msoFileDialogSaveAs) by SaveAsDialog = Application.Dialogs(xlDialogSaveAs).Show
because the FileDialog does not exist in the macOS implementation of Excel but I still get other errors, it's late (3:24), I will give it a second look after a couple hours of sleep.

I had to simplify the script because the file dialog is a pain to use and mostly broken on macOS.

I have hard coded the filename as a quick and dirty fix (for now)
Code:
Sub CreateRom()
   ...
    Dim CreateFileName As String
   ...
    SheetNumber = Worksheets(1).Cells(6, 1).Value
    CreateFileName = "FDD240G:Users:sycote:grafik-" & SheetNumber & ".rom"
    Open CreateFileName For Binary As #1
   ...
End Sub

With this fix the CreateRom function generate ROM files identical to the ones you gave me.
Now I can correct the code and safely assume that the generated code will work.

Sylvain

edit: typos
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08-11-2016, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 08-11-2016 02:40 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #26
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
Hello Mike,

I have recreated the US paper selection error but with a sniffer before and after the plotter to capture the entire communication exchange.
Doing this setup it become clear that the mysterious 0x60 was actually the plotter accessory id and was not part of the error message.

Sylvain

Hardware & Software Setup
HP-41C + QUAD + 82160A + 82184A
PIL-Box + IL-PIL-Box + IL-Scope
HP-7470A opt 003
PIL-Box + IL-PIL-Box + IL-Scope

Loop connection
HP-41 -> PIL-Box -> HP-7470A -> PIL-Box -> HP-41

LIMIT command before plotter -> PIL-Box + IL-PIL-Box + IL-Scope
Code:
01 : IDY 00
02 : AAU     RFC     
03 : AAD 01  
04 : TAD 01  RFC     
05 : SAI     DAB 60  
06 : LAD 01  RFC     
07 : DAB 49  DAB 50  DAB 20  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 31  DAB 30  DAB 38  DAB 30  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 37  DAB 36  DAB 30  DAB 30  DAB 0D  DAB 0A  
08 : DAB 4F  DAB 45  DAB 3B  
09 : UNL     RFC     
10 : TAD 01  RFC     
11 : SDA     DAB 33  DAB 0D  NRD     DAB 0A  
12 : UNT     RFC     
13 : IDY 00  
14 : AAU     RFC     
15 : AAD 01  
16 : TAD 01  RFC     
17 : SAI     DAB 60  
18 : UNT     RFC

LIMIT command after plotter -> PIL-Box + IL-PIL-Box + IL-Scope
Code:
01 : IDY 00
02 : AAU     RFC     
03 : AAD 02  
04 : TAD 01  RFC     
05 : DAB 60  ETO     
06 : LAD 01  RFC     
07 : DAB 49  DAB 50  DAB 20  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 31  DAB 30  DAB 38  DAB 30  DAB 30  DAB 2C  DAB 37  DAB 36  DAB 30  DAB 30  DAB 0D  DAB 0A  
08 : DAB 4F  DAB 45  DAB 3B  
09 : UNL     RFC     
10 : TAD 01  RFC     
11 : DAB 33  DAB 0D  DAB 0A  NRD     ETO     
12 : UNT     RFC     
13 : IDY 00  
14 : AAU     RFC     
15 : AAD 02  
16 : TAD 01  RFC     
17 : DAB 60  ETO     
18 : UNT     RFC

Analysis of LIMIT exchange
Code:
01 : is device on the loop need servicing ?
02 : loop addressing request
03 : plotter increment the address counter
04 : set plotter as talker
05 : plotter receive an accessory id request and send it (0x60)
06 : set plotter as listener
07 : send data to the plotter -> IP 0,0,10800,7600[CR][LF]
08 : plotter signify an error -> OE; -> Output Error
09 : plotter no longer a listener
10 : set plotter as talker
11 : plotter send it's error code -> 0x33 [CR][LF] -> Code 3 = Out-of-range parameters AND the HP-41 send that it is no longer ready to receive data
12 : plotter no longer a talker
13 : is device on the loop need servicing ?
14 : loop addressing request
15 : plotter increment the address counter
16 : set plotter as talker
17 : plotter receive an accessory id request and send it (0x60)
18 : plotter no longer a talker

edit: typos
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08-11-2016, 10:06 PM
Post: #27
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-11-2016 02:30 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  I have recreated the US paper selection error but with a sniffer before and after the plotter to capture the entire communication exchange.
Doing this setup it become clear that the mysterious 0x60 was actually the plotter accessory id and was not part of the error message.
...
[snip]

Nice work. Probably the best line-by-line analysis of HP-IL traffic I've seen, at least in many, many years. A nice little tutorial on how HP-IL works at the plumbing level.

Thanks for sharing that.

--Bob Prosperi
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08-14-2016, 04:51 PM
Post: #28
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-10-2016 11:56 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  With this fix the CreateRom function generate ROM files identical to the ones you gave me.
Now I can correct the code and safely assume that the generated code will work.

Hi Sylvain, so what's the final word on the errors in the FOCAL code? Let me know if you want me to recompile the ROM image, and what should be changed of course.

Best,
'AM
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08-14-2016, 08:07 PM
Post: #29
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(08-14-2016 04:51 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Hi Sylvain, so what's the final word on the errors in the FOCAL code? Let me know if you want me to recompile the ROM image, and what should be changed of course.

Hello Angel,

The last days has been gobble up by family matters so nothing has really progressed. I should be able to resume tomorrow, sorry about that.

Best regards,

Sylvain
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08-15-2016, 05:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-15-2016 05:17 AM by Ángel Martin.)
Post: #30
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
Not a problem, this is not urgent by any stretch of the imagination so take your time and do the important things first...
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08-27-2016, 11:58 AM
Post: #31
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
I've corrected the big you found in the "X*" routine, see if the attached solves the issue..

'AM


Attached File(s)
.zip  GRAFIKS1.zip (Size: 3.3 KB / Downloads: 6)
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09-12-2016, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2016 01:07 PM by aurelio.)
Post: #32
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
excuse me for the intrusion... Smile (and for to have not yet read entirely the thread..)

....but, may I interface the 41 with a 7440a plotter as well?
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09-12-2016, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2016 05:56 PM by aurelio.)
Post: #33
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(09-12-2016 02:39 PM)Mike (Stgt) Wrote:  
(09-12-2016 01:06 PM)aurelio Wrote:  ....but, may I interface the 41 with a 7440a plotter as well?

A real HP41? Smile Yes, of cause using the HP-IL module.
I do not know about a virtual HP41 that may take the role of controller in a virtual IL loop so far.

Ciao.....Mike
yes, a real HP41....

I think that that plotter has a rs232 interface (I have still to find out, I ask to a a friend of mine), but I remember that it had a RS232 large connector interface (or a centronics?). I used it 20-25 years ago for printing ANDO OTDR optical measures and really I don't remember now if it was directly connected to the instrument or through a PC connection.

Now, to connect it to the 41 needs a HP-IL module and what else?
how I can get the loop?
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09-12-2016, 06:53 PM
Post: #34
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(09-12-2016 05:53 PM)aurelio Wrote:  yes, a real HP41....

I think that that plotter has a rs232 interface (I have still to find out, I ask to a a friend of mine), but I remember that it had a RS232 large connector interface (or a centronics?). I used it 20-25 years ago for printing ANDO OTDR optical measures and really I don't remember now if it was directly connected to the instrument or through a PC connection.

Now, to connect it to the 41 needs a HP-IL module and what else?
how I can get the loop?

HP-41 Calculator
- HP-41CX (or a HP-41CV with a HP-82180A X-Functions/Memory module)
- HP-82160A HP-IL module (basic HP-IL control)
- HP-82184A Plotter module (designed for HP-7470A but should work with this one as well)
- HP-82183A Extended-I/O (advanced HP-IL control, optional but may be needed if GPIO is used)

HP-IL Peripherals
- HP-82164A HP-IL/RS-232C interface (if the plotter is RS-232)
- HP-82165A HP-IL/GPIO interface (GPIO can be adapted to talk Centronics with a custom cable, owner manual P.30)
- HP-82166A HP-IL/GPIO interface (can also be used but with a little more effort)

Sylvain
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09-12-2016, 07:08 PM
Post: #35
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(09-12-2016 06:53 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  
(09-12-2016 05:53 PM)aurelio Wrote:  yes, a real HP41....

I think that that plotter has a rs232 interface (I have still to find out, I ask to a a friend of mine), but I remember that it had a RS232 large connector interface (or a centronics?). I used it 20-25 years ago for printing ANDO OTDR optical measures and really I don't remember now if it was directly connected to the instrument or through a PC connection.

Now, to connect it to the 41 needs a HP-IL module and what else?
how I can get the loop?

HP-41 Calculator
- HP-41CX (or a HP-41CV with a HP-82180A X-Functions/Memory module)
- HP-82160A HP-IL module (basic HP-IL control)
- HP-82184A Plotter module (designed for HP-7470A but should work with this one as well)
- HP-82183A Extended-I/O (advanced HP-IL control, optional but may be needed if GPIO is used)

HP-IL Peripherals
- HP-82164A HP-IL/RS-232C interface (if the plotter is RS-232)
- HP-82165A HP-IL/GPIO interface (GPIO can be adapted to talk Centronics with a custom cable, owner manual P.30)
- HP-82166A HP-IL/GPIO interface (can also be used but with a little more effort)

Sylvain

thank-you Sylvain, thank-you for the help

How many things needed, really.
I will wait for the plotter to check if is still in a workin' order....
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09-12-2016, 10:41 PM
Post: #36
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(09-12-2016 07:08 PM)aurelio Wrote:  thank-you Sylvain, thank-you for the help

How many things needed, really.
I will wait for the plotter to check if is still in a workin' order....

You are welcome.

There is also another path that you could take.
You could buy a 41CL board and with a Full-Nut version of a HP-41C, CV or CX you could then swap the original board with the 41CL one.
The 41CL comes with ~500 modules in it and have all the advanced feature of that new board, like 50x the speed of the original board.
41CL home site

To give you an idea of the speed difference look at the two videos I have made a year ago featuring a HP-7470A (HP-IB version), a HP-82169A HP-IB interface and two HP-41.
1) HP-41CX with a HP-82184A plotter module
2) 41CL with a virtually mapped HP-82184A plotter ROM image
As you can see, using a plotter with the HP-41 really make sense only when you are using a 41CL, the original HP-41 a way too slow for that usage.

Best regards,

Sylvain
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09-12-2016, 11:00 PM
Post: #37
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
I have a 7470 Option 003 (HP-IL) which has been stored for years. I am sure the pens have dried up but expect it should work fine otherwise. Anyone interested can contact me via email, bpwalsh at gmail.

Brian Walsh
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09-12-2016, 11:09 PM
Post: #38
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
For the plotter (future) users ...
DraftingSteals still sells fiber tips plotter pens for the HP plotters.
The fiber tips pens are made by Koh-I-Noor and last like the original HP pens of the time.
Sylvain
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09-13-2016, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 09-13-2016 09:12 AM by aurelio.)
Post: #39
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(09-12-2016 10:41 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  
(09-12-2016 07:08 PM)aurelio Wrote:  thank-you Sylvain, thank-you for the help

How many things needed, really.
I will wait for the plotter to check if is still in a workin' order....

You are welcome.

There is also another path that you could take.
You could buy a 41CL board and with a Full-Nut version of a HP-41C, CV or CX you could then swap the original board with the 41CL one.
The 41CL comes with ~500 modules in it and have all the advanced feature of that new board, like 50x the speed of the original board.
41CL home site

To give you an idea of the speed difference look at the two videos I have made a year ago featuring a HP-7470A (HP-IB version), a HP-82169A HP-IB interface and two HP-41.
1) HP-41CX with a HP-82184A plotter module
2) 41CL with a virtually mapped HP-82184A plotter ROM image
As you can see, using a plotter with the HP-41 really make sense only when you are using a 41CL, the original HP-41 a way too slow for that usage.

Best regards,

Sylvain

Sylvain you are full of resources, really, thanks again Smile

I can get the module through the CL or through the Diego's clonix.....but the difference with the 50x turbo speed is impressive..... so completely agree with your thoughts "really make sense only when you are using a 41CL"

the problem with the 7040A should that needs also the HP-82169A HP-IL/HP-IB Interface and not just the HP-82160A HP-IL interface, 'cause the interface was not HP-IL, such a device was not used, as I can remember, in our company at that time.
third problem: the pens are really very expensive and dry very easily!!!
I shoud be agree with Mike Smile
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09-13-2016, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 09-13-2016 09:26 AM by aurelio.)
Post: #40
RE: 41 Programs for 7470 Plotter - Why so few?
(09-12-2016 11:09 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  For the plotter (future) users ...
DraftingSteals still sells fiber tips plotter pens for the HP plotters.
The fiber tips pens are made by Koh-I-Noor and last like the original HP pens of the time.
Sylvain

Thank-you, that friend was wondering where buying fresh pens and you showed me the place, but.... they were and they seem still quite expensive Smile
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