Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
12-28-2020, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 12-28-2020 10:08 PM by Steve Simpkin.)
Post: #21
 Steve Simpkin Senior Member Posts: 603 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-28-2020 09:25 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(12-28-2020 06:54 PM)bkg2018 Wrote:  That HP choose a 12 segs display for a high-end machine at the same time Sharp choose the beautiful dot-matrix display for its low-end PC-1211 is still unexplainable 40 years later. But it wouldn't be the 41 without it, and as unbelievable as it seems, I'm somehow happy to find these ugly characters on the DM41X display bottom lines.

Those segments actually were 14.

I suspect HP looked at dot matrix displays while they were developing the HP-41C as their first LCD calculator around 1978 or so. They may have found the contrast to be too low on the ones they evaluated or perhaps some other technical or availability issue but I'm sure they chose the 14 segment over a dot matrix LCD for a good reason at the time. Even 11 years later the HP-48SX had poor contrast on its dot matrix LCD.
12-28-2020, 10:38 PM
Post: #22
 bkg2018 Junior Member Posts: 2 Joined: Dec 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-28-2020 09:59 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:
(12-28-2020 09:25 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Those segments actually were 14.

I suspect HP looked at dot matrix displays while they were developing the HP-41C as their first LCD calculator around 1978 or so. They may have found the contrast to be too low on the ones they evaluated or perhaps some other technical or availability issue but I'm sure they chose the 14 segment over a dot matrix LCD for a good reason at the time. Even 11 years later the HP-48SX had poor contrast on its dot matrix LCD.

Yes, Or maybe they didn't like that ugly yellow :-)

As of the 14 segments of course you're right, I had 12 in mind and can't think why.

Maybe autonomy was an issue too.
12-29-2020, 11:09 AM
Post: #23
 Chr Yoko Member Posts: 58 Joined: May 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
I believe the 28C was the first HP with a dot matrix LCD.... and it was pretty hard to read if you are not at the exact requested viewing angle.
12-29-2020, 01:09 PM
Post: #24
 Steve Simpkin Senior Member Posts: 603 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-29-2020 11:09 AM)Chr Yoko Wrote:  I believe the 28C was the first HP with a dot matrix LCD.... and it was pretty hard to read if you are not at the exact requested viewing angle.
Yes the HP-28C (1987) was the first HP "scientific" calculator to use a dot matrix LCD. The financial model HP-18C introduced a year earlier (1986) used the same hardware and LCD. HP also had previously used a dot matrix LCD in the HP-75C (1982) and HP-71B (1984) handheld computers. The HP-71B was the first handheld to use the Saturn processor used in later calculator models.

The HP-28C was such a groundbreaking model that brought symbolic math and early CAS to handheld calculators. It's interesting that HP created the processor (Saturn), created their own computer language (system RPL) and wrote all of their own code used in the HP-28C. When TI decided to make their first symbolic calculator (the TI-92) eight years later, they used an off the shelf processor (Motorola 68000) and acquired a company (the Soft Warehouse) with an existing CAS (Derive) to help implement it. The specs on the TI-92 are very similar to the first Apple Macintosh (and Lisa).
12-31-2020, 12:51 PM
Post: #25
 Hlib Member Posts: 238 Joined: Jan 2015
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-28-2020 06:54 PM)bkg2018 Wrote:  I feel you're missing the point in DM41X. It's not about having a better calculator than the TI-85 - which I find difficult to think of as a dream machine anyway - it's about getting a perfect HP-41. The 41 has been and still is mythical, you cannot avoid the fact that the TI-85 never will ...
... All in all I think the DM41 is very close to what a perfect HP-41 could have been, which certainly was what to achieve at Swiss Micros.
Thank you for this nice description. I really overlooked the fact that the DM-41X is more of a tribute to the legendary calculator. First of all, this is a great gift to the collection for fans of the HP-41. "Anniversary" and "Limited Edition" calculators are all very well if youre mainly interested in collecting such things, and it should hardly be considered as a modern serious tool for computing.
If we assume the situation that the DM-41X calculator could become the main tool for some amateurs, then it is indispensably to have at least two of them. The more important the results of work, the more reliable the duplication of the means of work should be. To purchase of a spare copy at the current price can afford very few amateurs. I would refer the DM-41X calculator to a group of luxury goods.
12-31-2020, 04:17 PM
Post: #26
 ijabbott Senior Member Posts: 1,024 Joined: Jul 2015
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-31-2020 12:51 PM)Hlib Wrote:  If we assume the situation that the DM-41X calculator could become the main tool for some amateurs, then it is indispensably to have at least two of them. The more important the results of work, the more reliable the duplication of the means of work should be. To purchase of a spare copy at the current price can afford very few amateurs. I would refer the DM-41X calculator to a group of luxury goods.

By that standard, you would also have classed the HP-41CX as luxury goods.

— Ian Abbott
12-31-2020, 05:35 PM
Post: #27
 Gene Moderator Posts: 1,187 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
In constant dollars, the HP-41C at $295USD in 1979 would cost$1057USD in 2020.

The DM-41X is magnitudes ahead of any HP-41C, CV, or CX that was ever sold in the 1980s for a host of reasons.

The DM41X is a bargain it seems to me.
12-31-2020, 06:25 PM
Post: #28
 Peet Member Posts: 101 Joined: Oct 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-31-2020 05:35 PM)Gene Wrote:  The DM41X is a bargain it seems to me.

As far as I know this "bargain" is one of the most expensive calculators today. It cost as much than 100 cheap ones. Maybe it's a little bit of luxury.
01-01-2021, 10:22 AM
Post: #29
 Raymond Del Tondo Member Posts: 283 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(12-31-2020 06:25 PM)Peet Wrote:
(12-31-2020 05:35 PM)Gene Wrote:  The DM41X is a bargain it seems to me.
As far as I know this "bargain" is one of the most expensive calculators today. It cost as much than 100 cheap ones. Maybe it's a little bit of luxury.
Luxury? Yes, of course. But it doesn't make much sense comparing apples and oranges;-)

Which of the cheap ones offer RPN, HP-41 compatibility, and hundreds of application pacs already onboard?
None.

A meaningful comparison could be between the DM-41X and the Systemyde 41CL,
which costs about two or three times the price of the DM-41X.

-- Ray
01-01-2021, 12:08 PM
Post: #30
 Peet Member Posts: 101 Joined: Oct 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 10:22 AM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  A meaningful comparison could be between the DM-41X and the Systemyde 41CL,
which costs about two or three times the price of the DM-41X.

This comparison is anything but meaningful. The 41CL is not a typical commercial product, it is a manual work modified HP41.

A meaningful comparison could be the HP Prime which costs about half a DM41X.

On german Amazon (the 41X is not available there) the (cheaper) DM42 is the most expensive calculator listed (against all Sharp, Casio, TI and HP). It costs more than 10 times than some scientific calculators from these companies.

In my opinion, the DM41X is definitely luxury but worth its price due to its compatibility with the HP-41. Unfortunately, the hardware and software do not quite live up to this claim and the price.
01-01-2021, 02:29 PM
Post: #31
 Raymond Del Tondo Member Posts: 283 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 12:08 PM)Peet Wrote:
(01-01-2021 10:22 AM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  A meaningful comparison could be between the DM-41X and the Systemyde 41CL,
which costs about two or three times the price of the DM-41X.
This comparison is anything but meaningful. The 41CL is not a typical commercial product, it is a manual work modified HP41.
The DM-41X was made for fans of the HP-41, who get an HP-41 with some modern features.
The DM-41X may be produced in rather small quantities, maybe a few hundred units only. Like the CL.
Both use modern internal hardware and software to simulate an HP-41.

(01-01-2021 12:08 PM)Peet Wrote:  A meaningful comparison could be the HP Prime which costs about half a DM41X.
Not in my opinion.
Even if the internal hardware of the Prime and the DM-41X may be similar:
The Prime is a totally different beast, and addresses a totally different market.
It has no HP-41 compatibility, and next to no RPN.

Did you read the name "41X" on the DM, did you see the display mimicing the HP-41 rice bean segment display, did you notice the keyboard layout?
Everything cries "HP-41". Not Prime.

-- Ray
01-01-2021, 02:41 PM
Post: #32
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 2,330 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 12:08 PM)Peet Wrote:  Unfortunately, the hardware and software do not quite live up to this claim and the price.

Surely they are not up to the quality of the 30 programs you already shared for the 41X...

Greetings,
Massimo

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01-01-2021, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2021 03:40 PM by Peet.)
Post: #33
 Peet Member Posts: 101 Joined: Oct 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 02:29 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  Did you read the name "41X" on the DM, did you see the display mimicing the HP-41 rice bean segment display, did you notice the keyboard layout?
Everything cries "HP-41". Not Prime.

Did you read my posting to the end?

(01-01-2021 02:41 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Surely they are not up to the quality of the 30 programs you already shared for the 41X...

I find your posting insulting as well as hurtful. But even if you want to make fun of other people, please do so in the right forum.

(12-24-2020 07:30 PM)Hlib Wrote:  And the design and technology of the inscriptions on the front panel, it seems, was handled by the sales managers secretary.

Even if I don't share any other statement from your posting, this unfortunately was similar to my first impression. But you missed the point, the DM41X is a calculator for enthusiasts.
01-01-2021, 03:43 PM
Post: #34
 Raymond Del Tondo Member Posts: 283 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 03:09 PM)Peet Wrote:
(01-01-2021 02:29 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  Did you read the name "41X" on the DM, did you see the display mimicing the HP-41 rice bean segment display, did you notice the keyboard layout?
Everything cries "HP-41". Not Prime.
Did you read my posting to the end?
Yes, but at the end of that post, you are again trying to compare the DM-41X with normal modern calcs (hardware,software),
which is legitimate on one side, but does not make much sense on the other side, since the DM-41X is not targetet at the mass market.
And since the production run of the DM-41X may only be some hundred units, the per-unit price is higher. Quite normal. Who cares?

-- Ray
01-01-2021, 03:46 PM
Post: #35
 Raymond Del Tondo Member Posts: 283 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 03:09 PM)Peet Wrote:  [..]the DM41X is a calculator for enthusiasts.
That's the point. Not more, not less.

-- Ray
01-01-2021, 03:53 PM
Post: #36
 Guenter Schink Senior Member Posts: 414 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 03:46 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:
(01-01-2021 03:09 PM)Peet Wrote:  [..]the DM41X is a calculator for enthusiasts.
That's the point. Not more, not less.

And a lot of these enthusiasts are older people now which fortunately can say: "200€? So what, let's get a couple of them" Yes that's pure luxury

Günter
01-01-2021, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2021 04:11 PM by Peet.)
Post: #37
 Peet Member Posts: 101 Joined: Oct 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 03:43 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:  ... you are again trying to compare the DM-41X with normal modern calcs (hardware,software),
which is legitimate on one side,

No I don't. I did the opposite. I explained that the DM41X cannot be compared to any other pocket calculator. It doesn't compete with a TI-85 (like others in this tread seems to belive) any more than it does with a razor or koffemaker. It is for fans of the HP-41 and is almost unrivaled there.

But that doesn't make look over it, that the manufacturing quality isn't what I expect for twice the price of an HP Prime. I feel that criticism on this point is appropriate and constructive.

(01-01-2021 03:53 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  And a lot of these enthusiasts are older people now which fortunately can say: "200€? So what, let's get a couple of them" Yes that's pure luxury

This is one of the reasons why I ordered the DM42 a short time after I received my DM41X.
01-01-2021, 04:35 PM
Post: #38
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 2,330 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 03:09 PM)Peet Wrote:
(01-01-2021 02:41 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Surely they are not up to the quality of the 30 programs you already shared for the 41X...

I find your posting insulting as well as hurtful. But even if you want to make fun of other people, please do so in the right forum.

It's you that started to be disrespectful of other's work. Do you think you could do better than SM on software side? Provide a better response time with bugs?
And you did this here, on this forum, so I am replying here.

Greetings,
Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
01-01-2021, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2021 05:19 PM by Peet.)
Post: #39
 Peet Member Posts: 101 Joined: Oct 2020
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 04:35 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  It's you that started to be disrespectful of other's work. Do you think you could do better than SM on software side? Provide a better response time with bugs?

I accepted the build quality of the DM-Calculators as enthusiast product, but it is not what I expect from a 200 EUR calculator.
I think it's pathetic to attack a person because he criticize an object. There is a difference between founded criticism and insults.

(01-01-2021 04:35 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  And you did this here, on this forum, so I am replying here.

No, I posted a nearly 40 year old collection of HP41CV programs in an other forum. It is hurtful to mock me here because they seem embarrassing from your point of view.
01-01-2021, 05:18 PM
Post: #40
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 2,330 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Review: Swiss Micros DM41X
(01-01-2021 04:50 PM)Peet Wrote:
(01-01-2021 04:35 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  It's you that started to be disrespectful of other's work. Do you think you could do better than SM on software side? Provide a better response time with bugs?
And you did this here, on this forum, so I am replying here.

I accepted the build quality of the DM-Calculators as enthusiast product, but it is not what I expect from a 200 EUR calculator.

I find it pathetic to attack a person because he objectively criticize an object. There is a difference between well-founded criticism and insults.

And exactly were did you find insults, you objective critic?

Greetings,
Massimo

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