41CL Self-Update
10-29-2017, 02:21 PM (This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 02:22 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #41
 Sylvain Cote Senior Member Posts: 887 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
Hello Jurgen,

(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:  As far as I did understand you, Sylvain, the Manual will do exactly that.
That is the intent, now it may take several revisions before reaching that goal, but I will do my best to be near it on the first version.
Just be clear, the manual will cover the complete solution, calculator & computer, but its focus will be on the computer side of the equation.
Monte has created a great and detailed manual for the update ROM that cover the calculator side of the equation.

(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:  But then again, Sylvain, I do not understand why you are writing a Manual at all if this is not necessary ... I must admit, I'm a litte bit lost on this here
The rule of thumb is, if you publish a software without documentation, it does not exists because nobody but the writer is able to use it, so it is needed.
The manual should have been available for HHC 2017, but I could not make this append and I am really sorry for that.
In the meantime, all the information is there to do it, yes it may be cumbersome and time consuming, but at least its there.

(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:  Sylvain, my last input was just to say "thank you".
Please, take into account that I'm not a native Speaker and as such I'm always struggling to find the right words.
But, be sure there is no offense or something intended. By no means ...
Thank you too for your interest in willing to update your 41CL.
There is double translation happening here, French-to/from-English-to/from-German with open space for misunderstanding and we are both struggling with English.
No offence was taken and it was not my intent to be offensive or rude, I was just trying to reset the expectations of what is or will be available.

Kind regards,

Sylvain
10-29-2017, 03:45 PM
Post: #42
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:
(10-28-2017 11:45 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Hello Jurgen,
I must say that I am a little lost here.
What you are seeing in this thread is the automated update process.
From the calculator side, you only do open, scan, update, close.
From the computer side, you only run the clupdate program with the needed parameters.
IMHO it cannot be more automated than that with what we currently have.
The only tedious part is the transfer of the update ROM and this is only because it was not part of the Flash space before now.
For sure, the manual will show several update technique, but the basic part will be very similar to the content of this thread.
I am sorry if what you are seeing here is not what you were expecting, I really am, but it is, what it is, and what will be available, at least from me.
Best regards,
Sylvain

Thank you all very much for your replies, hints and recommendations that I truly do appreciate!

However, I do know the documents cited, which are great! And, yes, I did read them Also, I did watch the HHC update documentation Video of Sylvain, which is awesome. As well as it is the step-by-step instruction of Sylvain in this thread. It is comprehensive (as I said) and I did understand that in fact it constitutes the whole update process.

But then agian, my hope in context with a Manual is to have a nice printable document that sit next to me while I'm updating my machine. The docment, that's what I would wish, should explain not only the process of updating itself but also what is needed on the Computer to get Sylvains' Software running. And, are there glitches with the Installation of the SW (if any) and if so, how to sort out possible Problems.
I know that all the Information and data for a succesful update is there. And I do understand that. But it is so much Information spreaded out here in the Forum and elsewhere (at Montes' page, at HHC) that my feel is, it would be a good idea to have a clean document, stripped down to what is really necessary and comprehensive enough, to give answers if problems occur. I thought that this is the actual idea of the Manual. As far as I did understand you, Sylvain, the Manual will do exactly that. That is the only reason why I'd like to be patient and to have a to-get-to-the-point document rather than a variety of single (however brilliant) documents and media with different contents. If I'm wrong here, I'm sorry. But then again, Sylvain, I do not understand why you are writing a Manual at all if this is not necessary ... I must admit, I'm a litte bit lost on this here

I am aware that all the present documents are brilliant documents of ist own, no question. But I still hope to have this stripped_down_bring_it_all_together_and_leaving_out_not_necessarily_needed Information document sometime.

Sylvain, my last input was just to say "thank you". Please, take into account that I'm not a native Speaker and as such I'm always struggling to find the right words. But, be sure there is no offense or something intended. By no means ...

All the Best,
Juergen
My father when I was a child told me with admiration how the manuals for US army radiotransmitters were written so that anyone (not necessarily a technician or a radio operator) could use them in emergency situation: even the blacksmith or the pharmacist had to be in emergency able to use or even repair the equipment... That's what maybe we expect from a manual... that someone who had solved the problem for us should bring us by the hand...but it's not always possible and I know how it's hard
we must follow the main path and make "own" what us is given
I've now indeed began my first upgrade and beeps remind me that work is in progress
thank-you to Sylvain and Monte and expecially thanks to this last hint
10-29-2017, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 05:01 PM by aurelio.)
Post: #43
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
is up to your experience a new fresh alkaline pack sufficient for upgrading a couple of CL (procedure time 3h about each one) or it's better to plug a new fresh pack each time?
10-29-2017, 06:10 PM
Post: #44
 JurgenRo Member Posts: 92 Joined: Jul 2015
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 01:17 AM)Geoff Quickfall Wrote:  Firstly, Sulvain, you are a necromancer of the first order, I bow to you :-)

Secondly the only truly automated system is to send the CL out for update and have it returned :-)

Thirdly, your system is perfect and my version2 will be attempted once I am back to the HP free time mode.

Very busy upgrading my pilot skills to left seat 777 and the 41cl beta version is at my side .

Beta regards to all ;-)

Geoff

Agreed, Geoff! An update service would absolutely great. Being located in Germany, a Support base somewhere in Europe (EU) would be wishful in terms of shipping time and costs ...
10-29-2017, 06:22 PM
Post: #45
 JurgenRo Member Posts: 92 Joined: Jul 2015
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 02:21 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Hello Jurgen,

(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:  As far as I did understand you, Sylvain, the Manual will do exactly that.
That is the intent, now it may take several revisions before reaching that goal, but I will do my best to be near it on the first version.
Just be clear, the manual will cover the complete solution, calculator & computer, but its focus will be on the computer side of the equation.
Monte has created a great and detailed manual for the update ROM that cover the calculator side of the equation.

(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:  But then again, Sylvain, I do not understand why you are writing a Manual at all if this is not necessary ... I must admit, I'm a litte bit lost on this here
The rule of thumb is, if you publish a software without documentation, it does not exists because nobody but the writer is able to use it, so it is needed.
The manual should have been available for HHC 2017, but I could not make this append and I am really sorry for that.
In the meantime, all the information is there to do it, yes it may be cumbersome and time consuming, but at least its there.

(10-29-2017 11:43 AM)JurgenRo Wrote:  Sylvain, my last input was just to say "thank you".
Please, take into account that I'm not a native Speaker and as such I'm always struggling to find the right words.
But, be sure there is no offense or something intended. By no means ...
Thank you too for your interest in willing to update your 41CL.
There is double translation happening here, French-to/from-English-to/from-German with open space for misunderstanding and we are both struggling with English.
No offence was taken and it was not my intent to be offensive or rude, I was just trying to reset the expectations of what is or will be available.

Kind regards,

Sylvain

Hi Sylvain, thank you very much for clarifying this and, of course, for all your effort in the 41CL Project
All the Best from Germany,
Juergen
10-29-2017, 07:41 PM
Post: #46
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 2,832 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 04:50 PM)aurelio Wrote:  is up to your experience a new fresh alkaline pack sufficient for upgrading a couple of CL (procedure time 3h about each one) or it's better to plug a new fresh pack each time?

Of course this will depend on how many ROM images need to be updated in each machine, however you can definitely get at least 2-3 complete updates, even for CL units from very early on.

I have done several update cylces with >200 ROM images to be updated on a single set of batteries, and then used it often for weeks after that, all on one set of batteries.

I keep a new set of 4xN batteries ready nearby my work area, but I would not expect to need them for just upgrading 2 machines.

--Bob Prosperi
10-29-2017, 08:06 PM
Post: #47
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 07:41 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(10-29-2017 04:50 PM)aurelio Wrote:  is up to your experience a new fresh alkaline pack sufficient for upgrading a couple of CL (procedure time 3h about each one) or it's better to plug a new fresh pack each time?

Of course this will depend on how many ROM images need to be updated in each machine, however you can definitely get at least 2-3 complete updates, even for CL units from very early on.

I have done several update cylces with >200 ROM images to be updated on a single set of batteries, and then used it often for weeks after that, all on one set of batteries.

I keep a new set of 4xN batteries ready nearby my work area, but I would not expect to need them for just upgrading 2 machines.
Thankyou Bob, I have to update 76 ROMs for each one and just started the second
in the first attempt left one ROM outdated:

17:52:41 File CFLDB.ROM saved
17:52:41 Report Outdated ROM images [boardGeneration: SECOND]
17:52:41 Report YFNZ-4F.ROM [Page:0x007 ID:YFNZ Rev:2017-06-19 YCRC:0x 50EF10]
17:52:41 Report Summary: 1 outdated of 512 ROM images
17:53:05 Sent CLOSE_CHANNEL_RESPONSE(0x58)
17:53:09 Serial COM1 closed.
10-29-2017, 08:14 PM
Post: #48
 JurgenRo Member Posts: 92 Joined: Jul 2015
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 07:41 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(10-29-2017 04:50 PM)aurelio Wrote:  is up to your experience a new fresh alkaline pack sufficient for upgrading a couple of CL (procedure time 3h about each one) or it's better to plug a new fresh pack each time?

Of course this will depend on how many ROM images need to be updated in each machine, however you can definitely get at least 2-3 complete updates, even for CL units from very early on.

I have done several update cylces with >200 ROM images to be updated on a single set of batteries, and then used it often for weeks after that, all on one set of batteries.

I keep a new set of 4xN batteries ready nearby my work area, but I would not expect to need them for just upgrading 2 machines.

You might even want to hook up your 41CL via a USB power module to a permanent power source during update. The idea is by Diego Diaz. Find the schematics to build one here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...722#183722 You will need a doner HP-module for it.
Juergen
10-29-2017, 08:17 PM
Post: #49
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 1,533 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 08:14 PM)JurgenRo Wrote:  You might even want to hook up your 41CL via a USB power module to a permanent power source during update. The idea is by Diego Diaz. Find the schematics to build one here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...722#183722 You will need a doner HP-module for it.
Juergen

That's what I always keep hooked on my CL.

Greetings,
Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
10-29-2017, 09:41 PM
Post: #50
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 08:14 PM)JurgenRo Wrote:
(10-29-2017 07:41 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Of course this will depend on how many ROM images need to be updated in each machine, however you can definitely get at least 2-3 complete updates, even for CL units from very early on.

I have done several update cylces with >200 ROM images to be updated on a single set of batteries, and then used it often for weeks after that, all on one set of batteries.

I keep a new set of 4xN batteries ready nearby my work area, but I would not expect to need them for just upgrading 2 machines.

You might even want to hook up your 41CL via a USB power module to a permanent power source during update. The idea is by Diego Diaz. Find the schematics to build one here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...722#183722 You will need a doner HP-module for it.
Juergen
thankyou Jurgen, I did not yet read it
10-29-2017, 11:47 PM
Post: #51
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 2,832 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 08:06 PM)aurelio Wrote:  Thankyou Bob, I have to update 76 ROMs for each one and just started the second
in the first attempt left one ROM outdated:

17:52:41 File CFLDB.ROM saved
17:52:41 Report Outdated ROM images [boardGeneration: SECOND]
17:52:41 Report YFNZ-4F.ROM [Page:0x007 ID:YFNZ Rev:2017-06-19 YCRC:0x 50EF10]
17:52:41 Report Summary: 1 outdated of 512 ROM images
17:53:05 Sent CLOSE_CHANNEL_RESPONSE(0x58)
17:53:09 Serial COM1 closed.

Great news, 1 down, 1 to go. Please add comments here when done to confirm the process is simple and safe; hopefully with a few more success stories, other users will jump in too.

I've no idea why that image was not updated, I'll leave it to Monte or Sylvain to comment on that. Though it appears the one you have installed is quite recent anyhow, so it's unlikely this is any kind of problem.

--Bob Prosperi
10-30-2017, 12:21 AM (This post was last modified: 10-30-2017 12:22 AM by Mark Hardman.)
Post: #52
 Mark Hardman Senior Member Posts: 462 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 11:47 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(10-29-2017 08:06 PM)aurelio Wrote:  Thankyou Bob, I have to update 76 ROMs for each one and just started the second
in the first attempt left one ROM outdated:

17:52:41 File CFLDB.ROM saved
17:52:41 Report Outdated ROM images [boardGeneration: SECOND]
17:52:41 Report YFNZ-4F.ROM [Page:0x007 ID:YFNZ Rev:2017-06-19 YCRC:0x 50EF10]
17:52:41 Report Summary: 1 outdated of 512 ROM images
17:53:05 Sent CLOSE_CHANNEL_RESPONSE(0x58)
17:53:09 Serial COM1 closed.

I've no idea why that image was not updated, I'll leave it to Monte or Sylvain to comment on that. Though it appears the one you have installed is quite recent anyhow, so it's unlikely this is any kind of problem.

Page 0x007 is in the OS sector. Aurelio, you will need to set OSUPDT mode to allow the update process to write to that page (see page 37 of the 41CL Update Functions manual). As noted above, writing the OS sector takes longer than normal. This is discussed earlier in this thread.

Mark Hardman

Ceci n'est pas une signature.
10-30-2017, 12:35 AM
Post: #53
 Sylvain Cote Senior Member Posts: 887 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 04:50 PM)aurelio Wrote:  is up to your experience a new fresh alkaline pack sufficient for upgrading a couple of CL (procedure time 3h about each one) or it's better to plug a new fresh pack each time?
I only use rechargeable 1.2V 500MAH NIMH N CELL x 4 kits on my 41CL machines
I have done more than 50 upgrade and downgrade in the past 18 months with these batteries without any issue.
I have done several update on the same set of battery with the same charge, also without issue.
I intentionally started an update when the batteries were weak to validate how the update ROM was handling the BAT indicator.
As soon as the BAT indicator lighted up, the ROM shut down the calculator and did update the ALPHA register correctly.
After putting back charged batteries, I was able to continue the update right were it stopped.
10-30-2017, 12:35 AM
Post: #54
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 2,832 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-30-2017 12:21 AM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  Page 0x007 is in the OS sector. Aurelio, you will need to set OSUPDT mode to allow the update process to write to that page (see page 37 of the 41CL Update Functions manual). As noted above, writing the OS sector takes longer than normal. This is discussed earlier in this thread.

Mark Hardman

Nice catch Mark, I missed that. And I looked only a few words away too....

--Bob Prosperi
10-30-2017, 01:25 AM
Post: #55
 Sylvain Cote Senior Member Posts: 887 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-30-2017 12:21 AM)Mark Hardman Wrote:
(10-29-2017 11:47 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I've no idea why that image was not updated, I'll leave it to Monte or Sylvain to comment on that.
Page 0x007 is in the OS sector. Aurelio, you will need to set OSUPDT mode to allow the update process to write to that page (see page 37 of the 41CL Update Functions manual). As noted above, writing the OS sector takes longer than normal. This is discussed earlier in this thread.

I run all my updates with the OS sector protection active.
I deactivate the protection only when an infrequent OS sector update is needed and reactivate the protection right after the update.

Normal update process ...
Code:
CMOPEN      /// open up the communication link "*"         /// select all Flash space FLCHK?      /// scan Flash space for outdated ROM images "*"         /// select all Flash space FLUPD       /// update outdated ROM images CDBEXP      /// export CFLDB database to see the outdated ROM report

Now, if the outdated ROM report contains OS sector ROM to update, then I do the following:
WARNING: be sure to have enough energy left in your batteries before doing this part.
Code:
OSUPDT      /// deactivate OS protection "*"         /// select all Flash space FLUPD       /// update outdated ROM left OSPROT      /// reactivate OS protection CDBEXP      /// export CFLDB database to see the outdated ROM report

Terminate the update
Code:
CMCLOSE     /// close down the communication link
10-30-2017, 05:21 AM
Post: #56
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-29-2017 11:47 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(10-29-2017 08:06 PM)aurelio Wrote:  Thankyou Bob, I have to update 76 ROMs for each one and just started the second
in the first attempt left one ROM outdated:

17:52:41 File CFLDB.ROM saved
17:52:41 Report Outdated ROM images [boardGeneration: SECOND]
17:52:41 Report YFNZ-4F.ROM [Page:0x007 ID:YFNZ Rev:2017-06-19 YCRC:0x 50EF10]
17:52:41 Report Summary: 1 outdated of 512 ROM images
17:53:05 Sent CLOSE_CHANNEL_RESPONSE(0x58)
17:53:09 Serial COM1 closed.

Great news, 1 down, 1 to go. Please add comments here when done to confirm the process is simple and safe; hopefully with a few more success stories, other users will jump in too.

I've no idea why that image was not updated, I'll leave it to Monte or Sylvain to comment on that. Though it appears the one you have installed is quite recent anyhow, so it's unlikely this is any kind of problem.

Sure...

Second attempt like the first YFNZ-4F.ROM not updated
today I'll check on the manual trying to understand what I miss
10-30-2017, 05:49 AM
Post: #57
 Monte Dalrymple Member Posts: 142 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-30-2017 05:21 AM)aurelio Wrote:
(10-29-2017 11:47 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Great news, 1 down, 1 to go. Please add comments here when done to confirm the process is simple and safe; hopefully with a few more success stories, other users will jump in too.

I've no idea why that image was not updated, I'll leave it to Monte or Sylvain to comment on that. Though it appears the one you have installed is quite recent anyhow, so it's unlikely this is any kind of problem.

Sure...

Second attempt like the first YFNZ-4F.ROM not updated
today I'll check on the manual trying to understand what I miss

The ONLY change from YFNZ-4E to YFNZ-4F was to make the functions fully
compatible with V5 boards with the larger Flash memory. So if you have -4E
installed there isn't really any need to upgrade this image.
10-30-2017, 07:36 AM
Post: #58
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-30-2017 05:49 AM)Monte Dalrymple Wrote:
(10-30-2017 05:21 AM)aurelio Wrote:  Sure...

Second attempt like the first YFNZ-4F.ROM not updated
today I'll check on the manual trying to understand what I miss

The ONLY change from YFNZ-4E to YFNZ-4F was to make the functions fully
compatible with V5 boards with the larger Flash memory. So if you have -4E
installed there isn't really any need to upgrade this image.
OK thanks
10-30-2017, 12:20 PM
Post: #59
 aurelio Senior Member Posts: 357 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-30-2017 01:25 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:
(10-30-2017 12:21 AM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  Page 0x007 is in the OS sector. Aurelio, you will need to set OSUPDT mode to allow the update process to write to that page (see page 37 of the 41CL Update Functions manual). As noted above, writing the OS sector takes longer than normal. This is discussed earlier in this thread.

I run all my updates with the OS sector protection active.
I deactivate the protection only when an infrequent OS sector update is needed and reactivate the protection right after the update.

Normal update process ...
Code:
CMOPEN      /// open up the communication link "*"         /// select all Flash space FLCHK?      /// scan Flash space for outdated ROM images "*"         /// select all Flash space FLUPD       /// update outdated ROM images CDBEXP      /// export CFLDB database to see the outdated ROM report

Now, if the outdated ROM report contains OS sector ROM to update, then I do the following:
WARNING: be sure to have enough energy left in your batteries before doing this part.
Code:
OSUPDT      /// deactivate OS protection "*"         /// select all Flash space FLUPD       /// update outdated ROM left OSPROT      /// reactivate OS protection CDBEXP      /// export CFLDB database to see the outdated ROM report

Terminate the update
Code:
CMCLOSE     /// close down the communication link
Sorry to have lost the chained previous messages: actually I thought there could be a protection 'cause Monte told about it on this post when I read the message updt done or something like that on the machine..I changed my mind. When I will back home in the evening I will check much better. If I understood the flowchart each time you need to make a updt with this automated procedure you have to perform a complete scan, isn't it?
10-30-2017, 01:59 PM
Post: #60
 Sylvain Cote Senior Member Posts: 887 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: 41CL Self-Update
(10-30-2017 12:20 PM)aurelio Wrote:  Sorry to have lost the chained previous messages: actually I thought there could be a protection
'cause Monte told about it on this post when I read the message updt done or something like that on the machine..I changed my mind.
When I will back home in the evening I will check much better.
If I understood the flowchart each time you need to make a updt with this automated procedure you have to perform a complete scan, isn't it?
Correct, this is the easiest way to do the update but unfortunately also the longest.

Now, if you read the advanced update section of the presentation, you will see that there alternative way to do an update that are very fast, like ~15 minutes.
But you must understand the process intimately because you are doing manually what the FLCHK? function is doing automatically.

Sylvain
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