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Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #1 Posted by Borja on 31 Aug 2011, 3:19 a.m.

I've just checked the Samson Cables page. They list the HP-15C special edition, this time at $129.

The photo they show is a photoshopped image of a 15C, but with "special edition" written below the HP logo.

      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #2 Posted by Ethan Conner on 31 Aug 2011, 4:50 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Borja

It's still cheaper than what's on TAS. Decided to place another order anyway. Need a backup. :)

      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #3 Posted by hpnut on 31 Aug 2011, 7:24 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Borja

I pre-ordered in July, as these details:

(1) HP 15C Scientific Calculator PreOrder $94.99

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sub Total: $94.99 Shipping & Handling (USPS Priority Mail): $18.00 UT State Sales Tax: $0.00 Total: $112.99 (Pay Via: CreditCard)

I wonder if they will honor that price.

hpnut in Malaysia

            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #4 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 31 Aug 2011, 1:12 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by hpnut

Quote:
I wonder if they will honor that price.
They probably won't. I was told I get the chance to cancel my preorder if the price changes. However, the status page still lists my order at the initial price.
      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #5 Posted by Namir on 31 Aug 2011, 10:31 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Borja

Does that mean that HP has officially launched the HP-15 LE?

Namir

            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #6 Posted by Nick R on 31 Aug 2011, 10:43 a.m.,
in response to message #5 by Namir

Or is it still just an imaginary calculator that will handle imaginary numbers?

                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #7 Posted by Borja on 31 Aug 2011, 10:49 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Nick R

Quote:
Or is it still just an imaginary calculator that will handle imaginary numbers?
That's a complex question that might get partial answers at best!
      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #8 Posted by Tim Wessman on 31 Aug 2011, 10:50 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Borja

Not at that price I wouldn't. . .

TW

            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #9 Posted by Namir on 31 Aug 2011, 12:58 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by Tim Wessman

I guess SC is pushing things to whatever limit they feel works.

Namir

                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #10 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 31 Aug 2011, 1:15 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Namir

I think they're just trying to sell it for the expected MSRP, instead of a discount, because they figure their competition will do the same, since the supply will be too limited to meet demand. If and when this happens, I do expect massive price gouging on the secondary market, such as TAS. I realize those of you not residing in the USA have limited options, but please don't let someone like SC insert a phallus up your derrieres.

                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #11 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 31 Aug 2011, 1:21 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Namir

That was the suggested retail price, iirc. Due to the limited stock, it wouldn't make sense to give any discount. The 15C LE will soon be sold out and reappear on TAS at 200% afterwards.

                        
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #12 Posted by gene wright on 31 Aug 2011, 1:27 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Thomas Radtke

that sounds like a great idea to me! ;-)

                              
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #13 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 31 Aug 2011, 1:38 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by gene wright

Sorry Gene - already ordered 10,000 units ;-).

                                    
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #14 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 31 Aug 2011, 2:10 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Thomas Radtke

Timeline for releasing the HP-15C LE:

October 1, 2011 - HP makes official launch announcement

October 2, 2011 - All distributors announce that it is sold out

October 3, 2011 - Multiple listings appear on TAS for $500+

Edited: 31 Aug 2011, 2:10 p.m.

                                          
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #15 Posted by Tim Wessman on 31 Aug 2011, 2:19 p.m.,
in response to message #14 by Michael de Estrada

And any business would then do this and the hoarders would be SOL.

Oct 4: Order for next batch to be produced placed.

TW

                                                
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #16 Posted by Howard Owen on 31 Aug 2011, 2:30 p.m.,
in response to message #15 by Tim Wessman

Yes, but they wouldn't have that cool "Limited Edition" badge. :)

For a 15C fan, the only thing better than HP bringing back the 15C would be if it were a hit and found a permanent place in the HP printer line. :) Collectors might not agree, however.

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #17 Posted by gene wright on 31 Aug 2011, 3:00 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Howard Owen

Sure they would, Howard!

That 2nd batch might read

"Official Limited Edition not sold by a stinking hoarder!"

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #18 Posted by Howard Owen on 31 Aug 2011, 5:37 p.m.,
in response to message #17 by gene wright

Oooh - inside info! :)

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #19 Posted by gene wright on 31 Aug 2011, 5:41 p.m.,
in response to message #18 by Howard Owen

No no, Howard!

This would be printed on the OUTSIDE!

ha!

                                          
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #20 Posted by Nick R on 31 Aug 2011, 2:37 p.m.,
in response to message #14 by Michael de Estrada

I've never quite understood why the possible resurrection of this calculator should create such a feeding frenzy. It was a great model when it originally appeared, but the single line display is restrictive.

                                                
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #21 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 31 Aug 2011, 2:48 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Nick R

Sir, you clearly don't understand fanaticism.

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #22 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 31 Aug 2011, 3:01 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Michael de Estrada

Maybe it's about using something that just works? Something you don't feel about as being a beta tester? And maybe the limited display is no issue, but TAS prices for old hardware are? I hardly find any fanboys here.

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #23 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 31 Aug 2011, 4:44 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Thomas Radtke

You don't have to convince me, Thomas. I am one of those consumate fanatics. You are preaching to the choir. ;)

BTW, Today I just received an immaculate HP 32S in the mail. It's in like new condition with all the original packaging, even the protective cardboard insert for the slip case. And it's got the old style spiral bound manual. Oh, joyous day !

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #24 Posted by Nick R on 31 Aug 2011, 4:21 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Michael de Estrada

It just seems that buying this device sight-unseen is much like going on a blind date: both actions could possibly end in a miscalculation.

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #25 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 31 Aug 2011, 4:49 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Nick R

What's the miscalculation ? It's a known quantity. The only possible downside is that the physical quality is somewhat lower, but even that should be no worse than the current production of the 12C.

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #26 Posted by Nick R on 31 Aug 2011, 6:32 p.m.,
in response to message #25 by Michael de Estrada

I was speculating that the keyboard might not of the same quality as the original, leading to missed keystrokes.

                                                                        
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #27 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 31 Aug 2011, 8:58 p.m.,
in response to message #26 by Nick R

I won't be the same as the original, for sure, which had gold plated contacts. However, they are still making the original 12C in China, and AFAIK the keyboards are OK. The 15C LE no doubt uses the same keyboard as the 12C.

                                                
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #28 Posted by Jake Schwartz on 31 Aug 2011, 2:49 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Nick R

Quote:
but the single line display is restrictive.

Agreed 100%. The form factor is great, but imagine if they kept the physical case and keys but inserted a two-line full dot-matrix display. With the Atmel CPU/platform of the "12C+", it could handle 12-digit mantissa/3-digit exponent numerics, it would have the capability to support soft-key menus and Walter, Pauli and Marcus would have a field day :-)

Jake

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #29 Posted by Walter B on 31 Aug 2011, 4:08 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Jake Schwartz

d:-) ... and I will dig in my files and find some very old drafts. Oh yeah, such a 15CX would be really great :-) Else it's just the ancestor of the 42S :-/

Walter

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #30 Posted by Howard Owen on 31 Aug 2011, 5:40 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Jake Schwartz

Imagine a cell phone with a calculator keyboard overlay covering some percentage of the screen. The keys could have good tactile feed back, and the phone could provide an enhanced display.

But what if it rings in the middle of a complicated problem? :)

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #31 Posted by uhmgawa on 31 Aug 2011, 7:26 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Jake Schwartz

Quote:
Agreed 100%. The form factor is great, but imagine if they kept the physical case and keys but inserted a two-line full dot-matrix display. With the Atmel CPU/platform of the "12C+"..

The sam7 can't natively drive an LCD matrix of such density so an external controller would be required. This may detract from utility of the sam7 but even dismissing that I haven't found much to compete with it in this application space.

Quote:
it could handle 12-digit mantissa/3-digit exponent numerics, it would have the capability to support soft-key menus..

I believe the attraction of the 15c in part follows from the unmodified firmware proven over 30 years in the field.

However I hazard what you're really after is one of these HP-42C.

Yes I'm looking for one too.

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #32 Posted by Egan Ford on 31 Aug 2011, 7:56 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Jake Schwartz

Quote:
Agreed 100%. The form factor is great, but imagine if they kept the physical case and keys but inserted a two-line full dot-matrix display. With the Atmel CPU/platform of the "12C+", it could handle 12-digit mantissa/3-digit exponent numerics, it would have the capability to support soft-key menus ...
New software, new bugs.
                                                
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #33 Posted by Mike Morrow on 31 Aug 2011, 5:41 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Nick R

Quote:
I've never quite understood why the possible resurrection of this calculator should create such a feeding frenzy.

I can't understand the bizarre enthusiasm either. It is without any logical basis. Assuming a new HP-15C becomes available, speed would be the only advantage over the original. What good is that?

The original HP-15C is slow, but who ever did work on an HP-15C that would be enhanced by doing it faster? It has no output device (not even a BEEP) except the very limited display. It has no input device except the keyboard. Faster speed is not likely to have substantive value at all to any HP-15C application.

I'd rather have an original HP-15C. At least the battery life and the quality of construction will be vastly superior to any Chinese re-incarnation. The good old HP traditional quality is still there in 30-year-old originals.

The appearance of the HP 42S in 1988 showed that HP once could produce a small RPN calculator that is an order of magnitude better than the HP-15C. The HP 15C LE is a sign of failure in innovation at even 1988 levels!

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #34 Posted by Howard Owen on 31 Aug 2011, 6:23 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Mike Morrow

And yet the 12C still sells well after 30 years. Perhaps that machine is just good enough to do the jobs demanded of it. Maybe it fits into pockets and workflows that include far more powerful and sophisticated computing devices.

The 15C is a lot more powerful than the 12C for mathematics. It's also more complicated. So I wonder if it will find a similar niche out there. I consider that an open question, though.

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #35 Posted by uhmgawa on 31 Aug 2011, 7:06 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Mike Morrow

Quote:
Faster speed is not likely to have substantive value at all to any HP-15C application.

Speed counts for something to some folks, and the original NUTs are quite slow for anything beyond on-the-fly interactive calculations and limited programming. So a sam7 ARM version does offer value relative to the original.

I would however expect an encore 15c to add bidirectional i/o of some sort. The sam7 can certainly support it and running the firmware in emulation makes it quite straightforward. But AFAIK no one has seen the new 15c yet so it may best to hold off on that evaluation.

Quote:
I'd rather have an original HP-15C. At least the battery life and the quality of construction will be vastly superior to any Chinese re-incarnation. The good old HP traditional quality is still there in 30-year-old originals.

From the perspective of mechanical construction, LCD contrast, and quiescent current draw I'd have to agree with you there.

Quote:
The appearance of the HP 42S in 1988 showed that HP once could produce a small RPN calculator that is an order of magnitude better than the HP-15C. The HP 15C LE is a sign of failure in innovation at even 1988 levels!

Wow, tough audience. But the 42s has detractions as well considering the carbon pill key switch construction and the "service hostile" enclosure design. The LCD contrast is far inferior to the low multiplex rate segment display of the 15C (but admittedly may have been average for graphic LCDs of that era). Paradoxically we get a piezo beeper but no IR receiver in the 42s such that a user could have a means to get code into the box which doesn't involve human digits.

But quite honestly either machine offers an interesting platform to build upon.

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #36 Posted by Egan Ford on 31 Aug 2011, 8:14 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Mike Morrow

Quote:
I can't understand the bizarre enthusiasm either. It is without any logical basis. Assuming a new HP-15C becomes available, speed would be the only advantage over the original. What good is that?
The 15C is a gorgeous and capable work of art! Granted the 42S is far more capable, but it's also butt-ugly. :-)

I hope HP makes a zillion 15Cs since it is the only gift I am going to give anymore--wedding presents, baby showers, get-well-soon, sorry-for-your-loss, etc...

Retro is in!

(Whatever Walter says), the 16C! Please?

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #37 Posted by Katie Wasserman on 31 Aug 2011, 8:42 p.m.,
in response to message #36 by Egan Ford

Quote:
I hope HP makes a zillion 15Cs since it is the only gift I am going to give anymore--wedding presents, baby showers, get-well-soon, sorry-for-your-loss, etc...

Did I mention that I'm engaged, pregnant, sick, and have just lost an uncle?

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #38 Posted by hpnut on 31 Aug 2011, 10:49 p.m.,
in response to message #37 by Katie Wasserman

Quote:

Did I mention that I'm engaged, pregnant, sick, and have just lost an uncle?


Katie,

Generous philanthrophist Mr Egan Ford owes you at least four units HP 15LE s given your condition ;-)

hpnut in Malaysia

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #39 Posted by Tim Wessman on 1 Sept 2011, 12:55 a.m.,
in response to message #37 by Katie Wasserman

Me too!

TW

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #40 Posted by Mike Morrow on 1 Sept 2011, 2:16 a.m.,
in response to message #36 by Egan Ford

Quote:
The 15C is a gorgeous and capable work of art! Granted the 42S is far more capable, but it's also butt-ugly. :-)

I can't disagree with any part of that. The HP-15C is visually far more attractive than any later HP. I also think it's much better looking than the HP-41 series.

I don't know what happened to HP in 1986, after which all those left-coast "artsy" low contrast goober-head ugly color schemes were adopted. The HP 28, 48S and G, 38G, and all Pioneers have absolutely terrible color schemes. Even my dear HP 42S...ugly orange on even uglier brown...what drugs were those HP folks on?

At least today's 50g and 30b, and...even the unfortunate 35S, show a lot of practical "visual" sense has returned to HP since the demise of the Pioneers and the 48G series.

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #41 Posted by Howard Owen on 1 Sept 2011, 2:48 a.m.,
in response to message #40 by Mike Morrow

Quote:

..what drugs were those HP folks on?


Not LSD, you can bet. :)

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #42 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 1 Sept 2011, 12:45 p.m.,
in response to message #40 by Mike Morrow

Quote:
[...] all Pioneers have absolutely terrible color schemes.
What's wrong with the 20S' cyan/gold legends?
                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #43 Posted by NateB on 31 Aug 2011, 10:55 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Mike Morrow

Quote:
I can't understand the bizarre enthusiasm either. It is without any logical basis.

For those who do not have a 15c, the Limited Edition release is an opportunity to purchase a new unit for considerably less than the price of a used 15c.

For those that have a 15c (and use it), the Limited Edition release is an opportunity to be able to purchase a new backup with printed manual and emulator for considerably less than the price of a used 15c.

For those who collect, the Limited Edition release is another shiny object to hoard.

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #44 Posted by Lincoln R. on 1 Sept 2011, 12:03 a.m.,
in response to message #43 by NateB

I don't consider myself a "collector" per se. Collector makes me think of some guy with his display case stuffed full of red dot HP35s and a pallet of NIB 16cs that never actually get used. I own several HPs, but use almost all of them (including my non red dot, version 3 HP-35 that I actually used on my last exam as an undergrad at college... in May, 2011). It started when I bought a 48g after my TI-89 Titanium got stolen... I picked up a few other models, decided I wanted a 32S because the 48G was bulky and I really didn't use the graphing feature that often, so I managed to buy one that had the keyboard contact problem on TAS for $15 and fixed it. I'll probably buy one of the new 15Cs, but I intend to use it, not flip it on TAS or hide it in the bottom drawer of my desk for the next 50 years.

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #45 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 1 Sept 2011, 12:30 a.m.,
in response to message #44 by Lincoln R.

It's nice to see a young person show interest in these old designs and appreciate them. I too have an HP-35, V3, except that I bought mine new in 1973 when I got my first engineering job. It replaced my trusty K&E slide rule, and speeded up my work to the degree that I would annoy my boss by asking for more work because I would finish long before quitting time. I still have the HP-35, and it still works great. I'm sure you will enjoy the HP-15C.

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #46 Posted by Nick R on 1 Sept 2011, 7:57 a.m.,
in response to message #43 by NateB

So the 15C LE is going to be supplied with a printed manual?

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #47 Posted by gene wright on 1 Sept 2011, 8:18 a.m.,
in response to message #46 by Nick R

Yes

                                                                        
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #48 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 1 Sept 2011, 8:33 a.m.,
in response to message #47 by gene wright

Now, wouldn't it be something if it were also spiral bound like the original. One can only dream.

                                                                        
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #49 Posted by M. Joury on 1 Sept 2011, 9:18 a.m.,
in response to message #47 by gene wright

Maybe. The listing for both the 15C LE and 12C 30th Anniversary mention manual on CD.

Cheers,

-Marwan

                                                                              
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #50 Posted by Howard Owen on 1 Sept 2011, 10:23 a.m.,
in response to message #49 by M. Joury

Gene is in a position to know. :)

                                                                                    
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #51 Posted by M. Joury on 1 Sept 2011, 10:54 a.m.,
in response to message #50 by Howard Owen

So it appears. I am happy to learn that it will have a paper manual.

                                                
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #52 Posted by uhmgawa on 31 Aug 2011, 6:41 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Nick R

Quote:
I've never quite understood why the possible resurrection of this calculator should create such a feeding frenzy. It was a great model when it originally appeared, but the single line display is restrictive.

Voyagers in general and the 15c in particular certainly have a strong legacy, and honestly that was one motivation for my time sink developing the KINOMI project. But Voyagers are a point product which limits the design to their current feature set, in terms of having practically unmodifiable firmware along with limitations of the existing user interface.

That said I suppose I personally draw a similar analogy between open source and proprietary software. I don't really get excited by software for which source isn't available, in part due to the practical, potential need to adapt such software to my needs and part psychological in that I can modify said software. So in the case of Voyagers and others, having usable firmware (legal restrictions aside) and a documented programming model allow a platform beyond the original product -- a night to day transformation IMHO.

Edited: 1 Sept 2011, 5:04 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

                                                      
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #53 Posted by Neil Hamilton ( Ottawa) on 31 Aug 2011, 10:35 p.m.,
in response to message #52 by uhmgawa

Quote:
... and honestly that was one motivation for my time sink developing the KINOMI project.

Speaking of which, is there any more news on this front? I for one would love to see more of this. I have a few old chassis that I would love repurpose.

                                                            
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #54 Posted by uhmgawa on 2 Sept 2011, 10:55 a.m.,
in response to message #53 by Neil Hamilton ( Ottawa)

Quote:
Speaking of which, is there any more news on this front? I for one would love to see more of this. I have a few old chassis that I would love repurpose.

Fair question and I haven't forgotten about the folks asking for this.

Yes I'd like to release it as an open project, but am still undecided how best to do so. The procedure to actually get a KINOMI module functional in a Voyager is fairly involved such that in its current form I suspect it would have limited appeal. Issues such as nondestructively removing the NUT cpu, building a KINOMI module itself with 0201 footprint and 0.5mm surface mount components, adding the bottom floating conductor standoffs to the module, and manually soldering it to the prepared PCB takes some skill and tooling ideally including a low power microscope.

It would be considerably easier if the Voyager PCB were to be un-staked for the above assembly operation but doing so has its own complications. Still it may be inevitable and this option removes the need for a prospective modification to live within the 14x14.6mm KINOMI footprint. Eg, a complete board replacement is possible which opens up considerably more real estate allowing use of a more powerful SoC, and perhaps within reason additional RWM/svRAM/FLASH, and I/O. I think it is also far more feasible for an end experimenter to replace/restake an upgrade board than spending hours hunched over the family stereo microscope and hot-air rework station constructing a module less than the size of a US dime.

That said the existing KINOMI modules versions are certainly viable and I have several running here. For those interested in reviewing the design I'll try to get at least the schematics and PCB gerbers available for download within the next week +/-. Apologies this is taking so long but despite it being some of the most enjoyable leisurely hacking I can recall, no one seems interested to fund my preoccupation with 30 year old calculators. ;)

-john

                                                                  
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #55 Posted by robert rozee on 2 Sept 2011, 2:07 p.m.,
in response to message #54 by uhmgawa

why not just design it as a refit into a modern 12C+ casing? the user could then, at the same time, repaint/silkscreen the keyboard buttons and escutcheon too.

                                                                        
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #56 Posted by Neil Hamilton (Ottawa) on 2 Sept 2011, 2:13 p.m.,
in response to message #55 by robert rozee

Quote:
escutcheon

What a wonderful word! I had to look that one up.

The things one learns at this site...

                                                                              
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #57 Posted by robert rozee on 3 Sept 2011, 1:07 a.m.,
in response to message #56 by Neil Hamilton (Ottawa)

us kiwis (new zealanders) are quite renowned for our exuberant use of a veritable plethora of interesting and thought-provoking words :-)

                                                                        
Re: Darn! 15C preorder relisted at Samson. $129
Message #58 Posted by uhmgawa on 2 Sept 2011, 5:15 p.m.,
in response to message #55 by robert rozee

Quote:
why not just design it as a refit into a modern 12C+ casing? the user could then, at the same time, repaint/silkscreen the keyboard buttons and escutcheon too.

That has been on the mental drawing board ever since I was greeted to a at91sam7l128 COB entombed in a blob of epoxy upon popping open the first 12c+. But assorted pros/cons exist for the sam7l relative to legacy voyager models to consider:

The pcb is sized to the keypad area alone. So for use of this real estate in a new PCB layout, vias must dodge the tactile dome contact lands on the other side of the board. Blind vias are one option ($$) or a dual laminated board can be used as a economical approach to achieve the same (potentially better) result. (Perhaps clearance exists to extend the PCB into the LCD area, I'm looking at disassembly jpegs ATM and can't tell for certain).

The LCD mates to the PCB via carbon ink conductive ribbon, itself joined to the PCB via an anisotropic conductive tape adhesive. Freeing that connection requires care to avoid damaging the carbon ink and new anisotropic adhesive to reestablish the connection to a new board. Moreover controlled heat and pressure via a specialized hot bar tool are typically used to form a reliable seal.

The LCD is a segment configuration using a higher multiplex rate (lower contrast) characteristic. So perhaps we just want to displace it altogether with a matrix display. That decision is the easy part -- finding an off the shelf glass which suitably fits the existing window area will be somewhat of a challenge but arguably worth the effort. Plus a graphic matrix glass will realistically require a separate controller. If we were incredibly lucky we might find a COG or TAB mount glass + controller to suit but I wouldn't expect so.

The heat stake posts (at least for the version I'd disassembled) appear to be hollow and are a total of 9. The hollow core probably will accept a M1.6 or M1.4 screw which dispenses with recementing post heads for reassembly. Doing so may have been planned as a manufacturing option or perhaps the posts were molded hollow reducing mass to ease the staking operation.

The power supply (finally) is supplied by two CR2032 lithium coin cells which roughly provide double the energy of three LR44 button cells. This was likely to accommodate the substantially higher "off" current draw of the 91sam7l, but it is only a plus if we use a SoC with a lower quiescent current. The lower rail voltage (3V0) is directly digestible by contemporary SoCs where the legacy 4V5 supply will require a buck regulator to drop the voltage in operation and a very low quiescent current linear regulator to provide "off" voltage regulation for SRAM retention. I haven't found a suitable linear regulator which could live in a < 1uA budget. Although use of external nvSRAM and external logic may allow the entire core to be powered off while providing true non-volatile storage.

I personally like the tactile feel of the full domes present in the legacy Voyagers which have a more muted inflection. But that's just my preference and there is no reason otherwise why the 12c+ cut/legged domes couldn't be reused.

The 12c+ AFAIK thus far uses surface printed keycap legends which while a concession to manufacturing economy, are a better starting point if we'd like to engrave/fill new legends.

Edited: 2 Sept 2011, 5:25 p.m.


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