HP Forum Archive 16

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Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #1 Posted by . on 19 July 2006, 4:37 a.m. Hi, Am I the only person here who thinks the HP50g looks ugly, compared to the HP49g plus? I know the build quality is horrible but I liked the gold colour scheme. The black makes it look like an ugly 50's lab instrument in my opinion. .

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #2 Posted by Arnaud Amiel on 19 July 2006, 5:49 a.m., in response to message #1 by . The gold is fine with me as long as it stays on the calc. One of my g+ seem to be corroded... Hard to believe on a plastic calculator. At least it seems they are using black plastic so this will no happen. Arnaud

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #3 Posted by Anna Sidyr on 19 July 2006, 8:05 a.m., in response to message #2 by Arnaud Amiel See the photos: [url:http://www.hp-network.com/hp50g/ ]

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #4 Posted by Dia C. Tran on 19 July 2006, 8:17 a.m., in response to message #3 by Anna Sidyr I think it looks about the same as the 49G+ which is not good but not too bad.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #5 Posted by Tim Wessman on 19 July 2006, 8:28 a.m., in response to message #1 by . Well from my experience things never look the same in pictures as they do in person. I would wait till you see/hold one before passing judgement. TW

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #6 Posted by Gene Wright on 19 July 2006, 9:30 a.m., in response to message #1 by . The gold color scheme with it's red and green shift colors was not a good choice. Many men are color blind toward red and green, and that tends to make it a very bad choice. The contrast of the new colors looks very good.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #7 Posted by Arnaud Amiel on 19 July 2006, 9:54 a.m., in response to message #6 by Gene Wright I don't look at the colours, just check right or left. I could not tell you which colour is left and which is right but I know right is bottom. Even if there was no colour it would not chaneg anything for me. I believe people worry too much about colours. Arnaud

Color choices and Douglas Adams Message #8 Posted by Gene Wright on 19 July 2006, 10:46 a.m., in response to message #7 by Arnaud Amiel Well, there is a minimum amount of contrast needed or else you can't tell the shift function from the background color. :-) There's a quote from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams that's helpful. The heroes of the story are aboard a spaceship and they find that the computer is difficult to operate: “ ‘It’s the wild color scheme that freaks me,’ said Zaphod... ‘Every time you try to operate one of these weird black controls that are labeled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up black to let you know you've done it. What is this? Some kind of galactic hyperhearse?’ ‘Perhaps whoever designed it had eyes that responded to different wavelengths?’ offered Trillian. ‘Or didn't have much imagination,’ muttered Arthur. ‘Perhaps,’ said Marvin, ‘he was feeling very depressed.’

Re: Color choices and Douglas Adams Message #9 Posted by Bill - Smithville, NJ on 19 July 2006, 11:24 a.m., in response to message #8 by Gene Wright Hi Gene, I'd forgotten about the "Black on Black" story from the Hitchhikers Guide. Great description of today's designers. You've hit upon my major problem with most consumer goods today - No thought is put into the color sheme other than what looks good from an artistic view - not from a usability view. I have equipment that has raised white lettering on white plastic - impossible to read unless it's tilted in the light so that the raised lettering stands out. A lot of my equipment has light green or gray lettering on dark gray or black background. My Pioneer receiver is that way. Almost impossible to operate from the front of the unit - thank goodness it has a decent remote. For the younger crowd with great eyesight, these poor color schemes are not a great problem and I'm sure they wonder why we keep complaining about them. In time I'm sure they will learn to appreciate what we are complaining about :) Bill

Re: Color choices Message #10 Posted by Vassilis Prevelakis on 19 July 2006, 2:58 p.m., in response to message #9 by Bill - Smithville, NJ Bill - Smithville, NJ wrote: > Great description of today's designers. Well not only today's designers. Sir Clive Sinclair [1] when asked why most of his products were black, said that they were aware of it and have tried to come up with a non-black product, but when they look at the pre-production units, the black ones always look better. **vp [1] Sinclair is the guy who went for the bottom of the LED-watch/calculator/home computer markets. In the 70s he produced cheap LED watches, cheap calculators, and in the early 80s cheap computers (ZX-80, ZX-81, Spectrum, etc.) All were based on the assumption that the device has to be dirt cheap and last till the owner is bored with it and throws it away or stores it in the attic/basement/bottom drawer. The exact antithesis (hey, I am Greek :-) of the HP way (at the time).

Re: Color choices and Douglas Adams Message #11 Posted by Bill - Smithville, NJ on 22 July 2006, 9:55 a.m., in response to message #8 by Gene Wright Did you see the B.C. Comic in the papers today. BC Comic You'll want to look at the July 22 one. Bill

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #12 Posted by e.young on 19 July 2006, 10:41 a.m., in response to message #1 by . I have to disagree, but I withold judgement until seeing one in person. I think the color scheme is a step in the right direction because it more closely resembles the older HP's. I don't prefer that just because of nostalgia, but because I think the old color scheme worked well wit good contrast and legibility. To contrast, the green/lavender of late model HP32sii was horrible, and the silver/green/purple of the HP 33s is also bad. I do have reservations regarding the form factor of the 50g. I don't know why they need to have those curved lines on it.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #13 Posted by Dave Johnson on 19 July 2006, 11:12 a.m., in response to message #12 by e.young Wait a minute... isn't this the forum where just about everyone complains about any color scheme or layout varying from the brown/black hp calculators in the past???? Now that HP responds to the complaints and releases a brown / black calculator with no flashy colors there is more whining...... I do not understand.... Please do not complain when HP is simply listening to your market feedback and responding.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #14 Posted by e.young on 19 July 2006, 1:19 p.m., in response to message #13 by Dave Johnson I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you meant to respond to the person who started this thread, and not my response to the same. Clearly, I am not whining about the color scheme of the 50g and am disagreeing with the original poster. I said that the color scheme of the 50g was a step in the right direction.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #15 Posted by Han on 19 July 2006, 2:31 p.m., in response to message #13 by Dave Johnson Quote: Wait a minute... isn't this the forum where just about everyone complains about any color scheme or layout varying from the brown/black hp calculators in the past???? Now that HP responds to the complaints and releases a brown / black calculator with no flashy colors there is more whining...... I do not understand.... Please do not complain when HP is simply listening to your market feedback and responding. There's no pleasing everyone. You will find that when a product works, and works well, very few people will comment about it. And in fact, working products are simply nothing out of the ordinary to the typical user. Only the few who do have problems with a product will voice their opinions. No one remembers the good things we do. But everyone remembers the one mistake we made.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #16 Posted by Garth Wilson on 19 July 2006, 2:33 p.m., in response to message #13 by Dave Johnson Quote: Now that HP responds to the complaints and releases a brown / black calculator with no flashy colors there is more whining...... I do not understand.... Please do not complain when HP is simply listening to your market feedback and responding My complaint is about the shape, and they continue the ridiculous swirls and swoops that make it look like it's aimed at a junior-high cheerleader instead of the scientific/engineering community. Styling hit its peak around 1980, and it's been going downhill in the last 20 years, whether it's calculators, cars, stereo equipment, or whatever. Obviously I have to say that's just my opinion and not provable scientific fact, but I feel so strongly about it that it's very hard for me to get past that and give the calc a fair chance in what it can do.

1980's styling: ("Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly?") Message #17 Posted by Karl Schneider on 20 July 2006, 1:32 a.m., in response to message #16 by Garth Wilson Quote: My complaint is about the shape, and they continue the ridiculous swirls and swoops that make it look like it's aimed at a junior-high cheerleader instead of the scientific/engineering community. Styling hit its peak around 1980, and it's been going downhill in the last 20 years, whether it's calculators, cars, stereo equipment, or whatever. Amen, brother Garth! I keep two 1980's German cars, a 1981 Seiko wristwatch, and of course my collection of 1980's-designed HP calc's. I'll replace none of them with modern ones unless I really have to. That atrocious modern "stylization" of consumer produts is a key factor. In the US (and probably around much of the developed world), consumer products were very sensibly styled in the 1980's. I believe that may have been, in part, a reaction against the psychedelic 1960's and the funky 1970's. So, what happened since then? The rapid advance of microelectronics and utlization of cheap labor (e.g., Chinese) has led to profound lowering of prices and profit margins. Companies make products for the short term (due to rapid obsolescence), and emphasize flashiness over substance in order to get market share. Car stereo equipment is probably the most horrid example of this. For automobiles, advanced Computer-assisted Design and Drafting (CADD) has made it very easy to create new designs without constraints of sensibility. -- KS

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #18 Posted by Ángel Martin on 21 July 2006, 5:09 a.m., in response to message #16 by Garth Wilson Same here, if they could get rid of those curved corners and semi-beveled edges that make the whole thing so anti-ergonomic and displeasing to look at... but maybe we're just showing our age, after all taste is a matter of what you're used to seeing and have seen since you had the ability to notice things. Best, ÁM

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #19 Posted by CalcKidd on 19 July 2006, 11:35 a.m., in response to message #1 by . I like the new look :-) I'd like the enter key to be bigger and the keys to "feel" like the ones on the 15C. A USB port would be good to exchange programs/update the ROM. Add the clearest LCD they can manage - most pixels - and maybe add DayGlo or LED lighting to aid in dark surroundings. Add enough memory (the damned stuff is cheap as dirt). fyi

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #20 Posted by Egan Ford on 19 July 2006, 11:44 a.m., in response to message #1 by . I think anything without a large enter key is ugly. IMHO older HPs had equal emphasis on form, function, and quality. Lately it appears that function is given more weight. However I do like the newer colors. I will get the 50G, it will become the first new HP I have purchased since the 48GX.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #21 Posted by Will on 19 July 2006, 1:18 p.m., in response to message #20 by Egan Ford I like the new looks....i just ask about the "new" keyboard...will be OK???, something like the older ones?....

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #22 Posted by Mike T. on 19 July 2006, 1:09 p.m., in response to message #1 by . Proabably not - but I think it looks alright. Mike T.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #23 Posted by Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) on 19 July 2006, 1:21 p.m., in response to message #1 by . Who knows? Anyhow comparing a 40gs (which holds almost the same color scheme of the 50g) side by side with a 49g+ you can easily appreciate the greater contrast. Pseudo-metallic surfaces aren't the best choice to paint on key functions in my opinion (especially when using pale, non contrasting, tones). Greetings, Massimo

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #24 Posted by ECL on 19 July 2006, 6:56 p.m., in response to message #23 by Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) The phrase FORM follows FUNCTION, or other forms (hahaa) such as FORM > FUNCTION is certainly appreciated by engineers. An interesting insight I offer is this: Engineers' OBSERVE something to function well, and subsequently appreciate its FORM. That is to say, we associate a supreme aesthetic with functionality. I have often found myself coveting the appearance of one of my creations primarily because of its ability to surpass (in functionality) another competing design. Perhaps this explains why I find it compelling to ridicule the looks of something that fails to do its job?? ECL

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #25 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 19 July 2006, 9:29 p.m., in response to message #1 by . Some time ago the calculator industry decided that curves were nice. One example is the hp 33s with chevron keys. Another is the TI-89 where the TI graphic calculators from the TI-80 through the TI-85 had nice, god-fearing rectangular cases with rectangular keys but the TI-89 has curves with keys positioned in a sort-of chevron fashion. Place pictures of an HP-50 and a TI-89 side by side and note the similarity in the form factor of the cases. I don't have an Hp-50 but measurements from your picture and from ny TI-89 say that the aspect ratios are very close -- 2.26 for the TI-89 and 2.16 for the HP-50 !

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #26 Posted by Geir Isene on 20 July 2006, 3:42 a.m., in response to message #1 by . The good: Black, good color contrast. The bad: RPL and a small Enter key in wrong place! The ugly: "Fancy" shape. Edited: 20 July 2006, 3:46 a.m.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #27 Posted by Jim Creybohm on 20 July 2006, 2:47 p.m., in response to message #1 by . I seem to remember an article in one of the HP magazines that gave the rationale for colour selection of the calculators. Specifically, the discussion was for the (beloved) 41 and the reason that black was chosen was because "it did not show the dirt as bad". HP appreciated the fact that people used their units in all conditions. The gold colour scheme to me appears to be "bling", while the black appears stately and understated. The gold function key gives excellent contrast. With the exception of black, I don't think that there is really good contrast on a gold background. Mind you, my eyes are definitely getting older...

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #28 Posted by Crawl on 21 July 2006, 12:46 a.m., in response to message #1 by . I have no idea how the HP50G is supposed to compete with TI's new calculator. I thought the TI89 and HP49G+ were fairly evenly matched, with one having strengths or weaknesses the other didn't (to name just a few examples, the 49G+, inexplicably, can't do complex numerical integration, or complex Taylor series. On the other hand, RPL makes it easy to program any process you could manually do on the calculator. On the TI, that's not necessarily easy, and in some cases I'm not even sure if it's possible. The 49G+ usually gives real complex Taylor series faster; the TI89 usually is faster at numerical integration. I like the 49g+'s soft menus. But the 49G+ can't evaluate sin(pi/5) with surds... or it often doesn't even reduce squareroot(9) to 3, for some reason. And so on). But the next TI is supposed to be such a huge step up: 6 times faster, 16 times the computing memory, about ten times the storage memory (could make up for not having SD card support), 5 times the visual resolution (and gray scale)... The 50G, on the other hand, seems like just a minor improvement over the 49G+, and so looks to be left way behind. At the very least, the photos of its screen look to be the same resolution as the 49G+. And I haven't heard any news about substantial increases in memory or speed. Or an updated CAS.

HP's R&D Options (was: Everyone but me loves the HP50g's colour) Message #29 Posted by . on 21 July 2006, 2:27 a.m., in response to message #28 by Crawl From an engineering viewpoint, HP is in an interesting situation. How many people really understand how the HP50g works? It is fairly complicated. We have an ARM processor running an emulator for a CPU that very few people have experience with. The emulated code is written in a mixture of assembly and a language that almost no-one knows. How can HP improve it? And is the HP48 codebase a dead end? I wonder how expensive it would be for HP to hire programmers and train them in system-RPL and Saturn asm. Als, as long as the software is emulated there will be a very big speed hit. All it takes is for TI's new machine to run native code on a fast CPU and the HP50g will be left in the dust. TI were smart enough to use a standard language which can be recompiled to a speedy chip. HP on the other hand were short-sighted and rewrote code in assembly for the HP49g. Personally I'd rather HP throw away the bulk of the HP48 code and make a fresh start. I just don't see how major improvements to the existing code are feasible. Does anyone have any ideas?

Re: HP's R&D Options (was: Everyone but me loves the HP50g's colour) Message #30 Posted by Geir Isene on 21 July 2006, 3:26 a.m., in response to message #29 by . Quote: Personally I'd rather HP throw away the bulk of the HP48 code and make a fresh start. I just don't see how major improvements to the existing code are feasible. Does anyone have any ideas? Throw away RPL, implement in a new device JOY or FORTH.

Re: HP's R&D Options (was: Everyone but me loves the HP50g's colour) Message #31 Posted by Eric Smith on 22 July 2006, 2:20 p.m., in response to message #30 by Geir Isene There would be no point to throwing away RPL and using FORTH. RPL is already a more powerful threaded interpretive language than FORTH. FORTH has no real concept of objects; it's stack is viewed as an arbitrary pile of bytes, which may be interpreted as characters, integers, floating point numbers, etc. based solely on which "word" is trying to use them. That is even more error-prone than "system RPL". What they need to throw away isn't RPL, but the big pile of Saturn assembly language code that has replaced much of the original RPL code in the interest of performance. Early RPL implementations had relatively little assembly code, and could have been relatively easily ported to a non-Saturn architecture (such as ARM).

Re: HP's R&D Options (was: Everyone but me loves the HP50g's colour) Message #32 Posted by Paul Brogger on 21 July 2006, 10:39 a.m., in response to message #29 by . I'm not sure many calculator buyers (especially at the high end) choose between HP and TI (and Casio and Sharp and ???) on the basis of speed. The emulation layer's overhead is, I think, far less significant than what you suggest is HP's difficulty in enhancing the core functionality of its HP48 code. (Interesting observation, that!) on FORTH: I read and agreed/agree with John Dvorak's sound dismissal of FORTH as a systems development language, written WAY back in the days of the Coleco "Adam" debacle (remember?) (I admit, however, I have no current experience or knowledge.) In today's environment, if H-P is to enhance its position there is no sense in replacing one proprietary environment with an arcane alternative utterly lacking an industry-wide presence. With regard to the 50G's "ugliness": it just looks like an old TI-89. Edited: 21 July 2006, 10:50 a.m.

Re: HP's R&D Options (was: Everyone but me loves the HP50g's colour) Message #33 Posted by Garth Wilson on 21 July 2006, 4:41 p.m., in response to message #32 by Paul Brogger Quote: on FORTH: I read and agreed/agree with John Dvorak's sound dismissal of FORTH as a systems development language, written WAY back in the days of the Coleco "Adam" debacle (remember?) (I admit, however, I have no current experience or knowledge.) In today's environment, if H-P is to enhance its position there is no sense in replacing one proprietary environment with an arcane alternative utterly lacking an industry-wide presence. Forth's only problem for this kind of application is that it doesn't protect the user from himself, which is rather necessary for casual calculator users who should not be given so much control that they can run themselves off a cliff. Forth really is a rather timeless philosophy of programming though, and is not limited to the methods of 20 years ago. Note that NASA continues to be a big Forth user for complex new systems. Edited: 21 July 2006, 4:44 p.m.

Re: Am I the only one who thinks the HP50g looks ugly? Message #34 Posted by e.young on 21 July 2006, 3:34 p.m., in response to message #28 by Crawl This is off topic, but all of the talk about the new HP 50g makes me hope that HP has a successor to the HP 33s in the near future.

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