HP Forum Archive 16

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Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #1 Posted by Jim Creybohm on 29 Apr 2006, 2:13 p.m. This is not my auction, but it is an interesting thing nonetheless. It claims to be a 25C prototype - who made it? Why was it made? Or is it a hobbyists project? (which is kinda how it appears to me since it uses CR-2032 batteries.) Item # 9719609113

Something to be seen... Amazing! (NT) Message #2 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 29 Apr 2006, 2:26 p.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #3 Posted by Walter B on 29 Apr 2006, 4:27 p.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm If it is a prototype of an LED calc, why should it have an LCD? How can the hen be more advanced than the egg? But a nice device anyway.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #4 Posted by Frank Wales on 29 Apr 2006, 8:55 p.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm Quote: It claims to be a 25C prototype That's not how I read the title of the auction: Quote: Rare and unusual RPN calculator prototype like HP-25C I read this as "RPN calculator prototype" that resembles an HP-25C. Furthermore, the first two lines of the auction description are: Quote: This is a prototype used to create hardware and software for our own RPN calculator. It was not designed or manufactured by Hewlett Packard. (Emphasis added by me.) This is clearly some fairly recent hobbyist or experimental one-off; for example, on the left of the main board is an SD/MMC memory card connector, which dates the machine to the last few years. I'm sure higher-resolution pictures of the insides would yield more clues, for those sufficiently interested in learning more, yet too reticent to just ask the seller how the machine came about. Perhaps this represents an attempt by someone to figure out whether getting into the calculator manufacturing business would be worthwhile, and this auction is their way of recouping the cost of finding out that maybe it isn't. :-)

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #5 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 29 Apr 2006, 9:23 p.m., in response to message #4 by Frank Wales Frank; maybe he'll decide that "getting into the calculator manufacturing business would be worthwhile" when he sees the astronomical winning bid for this little jewel. I'll bet that it tops $800.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #6 Posted by Ron on 30 Apr 2006, 5:59 p.m., in response to message #5 by db (martinez, ca.) $800?? The only way it will ever be worth anything much, is if it actually goes into major production. Otherwise, it's just another run-of-the-mill hobby unit. The challenges of getting anything to production and distribution are not small. On the other hand, if it DOES go into production, it could one day be worth a LOT. But for $800? Quite a gamble if you ask me, unless someone just wants it for the pleasure of owning it.

OT: explanation of bid history Message #7 Posted by Cameron Paine on 30 Apr 2006, 5:04 a.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm I apologise in advance because this is way off topic (for the board, not the thread). I too was interested in the pictures of what looks to be a very professionally finished home-brew calculator. I'm not an ebay user. I saw a link that said something like "bid history" and I was curious to see how much people were considering paying for something like this. Imaging my surprise when I see that one bidder has placed 11 of the 12 bids and in doing so has inflated the price five-fold. WTF is happening here? I think an answer may be of interest to other ebay neophites who pass by this board. If you don't agree, maybe you could clue me up by email. Since I've asked the question I'll summarise the email responses here. TIA for your time. Cameron

Re: OT: explanation of bid history Message #8 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 30 Apr 2006, 5:48 a.m., in response to message #7 by Cameron Paine Hi, ok, this is OT too: The one bidder who set the most bids can simply be considered as newbee;-) It happens very often that eBay members with few experience try to always be the 'current high bidder', regardless of the fact that this doesn't make sense. eBay also encourages bidders to place higher bids, as if it were important to be the high bidder over the complete auction run. This is a gain for the seller and for eBay, of course. What finally counts is that you are the highest bidder when the auction ends, nothing else. So it's always sufficient to place exactly one bid, of the maximum amount you will pay for an item. Regards Raymond

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #9 Posted by Frank Boehm on 30 Apr 2006, 11:15 a.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm Well, it's not too hard to find out about this one: http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/microcode_simulation.pdf It uses nonpareil and has been built by Richard Ottosen.

Congratulations! (NT) Message #10 Posted by Walter B on 30 Apr 2006, 1:14 p.m., in response to message #9 by Frank Boehm NT!

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #11 Posted by Eric Smith on 30 Apr 2006, 11:22 p.m., in response to message #9 by Frank Boehm The calculator prototype in question doesn't actually run Nonpareil per se, though it is in a sense related. The prototype runs unnamed simulation software I've written in assembly language, with a lot of hardware support code by Richard Ottosen, who built the hardware. Richard also did a lot of the debugging of the simulation code. This was our second-generation hardware, though the first that was completed to the stage of being a fully-functional calculator. Since we now have improved third-generation hardware, we no longer need the second-generation hardware.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #12 Posted by Eric Smith on 30 Apr 2006, 11:27 p.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm Quote: Or is it a hobbyists project? (which is kinda how it appears to me since it uses CR-2032 batteries.) Why does the use of CR2032 lithium coin cells suggest that it is a "hobbyists project"? Many commercial products use CR2032 cells. The people involved in developing this prototype consider themselves to be professionals, though not previously in the calculator industry. That the prototype does not look like a finished commercial product is only indicative of it being an early-stage prototype, before any custom industrial design work for the casing and other mechanical issues.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #13 Posted by Jim Creybohm on 3 May 2006, 12:11 p.m., in response to message #12 by Eric Smith Thanks for your note Eric. My use of the term hobbyist was not to imply a lack of professionalism in the construct of the box. I was merely "carbon dating" the construction of the unit based upon the two images and about 3 lines of text. Since it was obviously manufactured to use these batteries and an LCD, I expected that it was made after the 15 series came out. Given the recent discussions here about how difficult it is to manufacture and market a calculator I found it interesting that some one would take the time to build this - and to be honest I was hopeful that there might be more for sale. The term hobbyist was meant to imply a construction of a device based upon love of the project, which this obviously is.

Jim; You aren't the only one> Message #14 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 4 May 2006, 12:24 a.m., in response to message #13 by Jim Creybohm >that hopes "there might be more for sale". I hope and promise to buy one.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #15 Posted by Eric Smith on 4 May 2006, 12:39 a.m., in response to message #13 by Jim Creybohm Quote: Given the recent discussions here about how difficult it is to manufacture and market a calculator I found it interesting that some one would take the time to build this It's entirely possible that the people involved are complete lunatics.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #16 Posted by Richard Ottosen on 2 May 2006, 1:05 p.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm The CR2032 lithium coin cells were chosen for several reasons: They are small, light and readily available yet are able topower the calculator for many months. They are thin so that the case can be thin. Cylindrical cells such as the alkline AAA cell have much greater capacity but add a lot to the case thickness. Larger diameter cells force a wedge-shaped case. This is why all of the early HP calculators are that shape. It was easier for me to make a case that is not wedge shaped. The cells can be mounted on the printed circuit board. This allowed me to create a calculator that has only one piece of electronics. There are no battery connectors on dangling wires. -- Richard

Congrats! Message #17 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 4 May 2006, 1:24 a.m., in response to message #16 by Richard Ottosen Hello, Richard; based on your followup, one concludes you are the designer and creator of this beauty. So... Are there any notes, diagrams, 'blueprints', listings and the like, that could be shared? I mean, as many others that are barely believing on what they are seeing, I would like to have a look (and study, of course) at the data related to this prototype. I see that closer to the main processor there is a connector, probably to program it. This connector resembles some mobile (celular phones) connectors, for battery charging and other purposes; is that so? I would not dare even dreaming of compete with some regular production line, I'd only try leading my own designs based on yours, and later share with the others as well. Maybe a guideline is the starting point. Thanks and congratulations. Luiz (Brazil)

Re: Congrats! Message #18 Posted by Richard Ottosen on 4 May 2006, 11:27 a.m., in response to message #17 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Luiz: Mostly, I did the hardware and Eric Smith did the software. The only information available is a paper Eric presented at the 2004 HP HHC conference. Other information may or may not be available in the future. There are two connectors. The small one is for RS-232 serial communication and was used to debug software. It has no other use in the calculator. The other connector is for an MMC/SD flash memory card. The MMC/SD has never worked and is not functional in this prototype. There is no battery charging since the calculator uses disposable lithium coin cells. We are a long ways away from a production line as well. -- Richard

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #19 Posted by gifron on 4 May 2006, 2:46 a.m., in response to message #16 by Richard Ottosen So cool, Richard and Eric!! When do you expect to be in WalMart? Do you have more models planned, and if so, will they be based on other HPs (as this is basically a 25C), or can we look forward to something like a 42SII (or whatever)? Edited: 4 May 2006, 9:21 a.m.

Re: Can anyone id this weird 25C box? Message #20 Posted by Richard Ottosen on 7 May 2006, 7:34 p.m., in response to message #1 by Jim Creybohm I have restarted the eBay auction after it was canceled due to a mistake I made. This is the new link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9723524082&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:31 Thanks again for your interest and time. -- Richard Ottosen

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