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Best Simulaton for 41
Message #1 Posted by PeterP on 18 Dec 2005, 5:44 p.m.

Hi, what kind of simulation program do you use and why? I've been looking around and it seems that EMU and V41 look both pretty good. For EMU I have trouble locating the bin files (and don't want to go through the trouble of producing them myself for all the fine mods out there. Any tips?), For V41 it seems that one can only program using the mouse with no re-mapping of the 41-keyboard (like XEQ, x^2, sin, etc) to the PC keyboard, so I don't see a real benefit to using it as compared to using the 41 directly.

Thoughts, advice, suggestions?

Cheers

Peter

      
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #2 Posted by Eric Smith on 18 Dec 2005, 5:55 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by PeterP

Well, I like Nonpareil, but I might be just the slightest bit biased. :-)

I haven't used "EMU"; in fact I haven't even heard of it. But V41 seems quite nice, and is currently more usable than Nonpareil. In my experience V41 uses the keyboard just fine; in fact I've had requests to change the Nonpareil keyboard mapping to match that of V41.

      
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #3 Posted by Howard Owen on 18 Dec 2005, 6:16 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by PeterP

The benefit of an emulator in general is that you can use most of the rare ROM modules without having to pay a fortune for them.

Personally, I use four HP41 emulators in different contexts. I use EMU41 to drive two HPIL boards. One is a real 82973A, and the other is one of Christoph Klug's clones. EMU41 works great with both. I run it under DOSEmu and Linux, so the limitations of DOS aren't bothersome. It's my primary way of exchanging data with my 41s, 75s and 71s. It also is helpful with my 85 and 87, and my 9816. These last three will all write to a 9121 floppy, and a 9114B floppy can read and write the single sided disks, as long as they've been formatted natively. Basic EMU41 is free. A version that speaks to an HPIL card is €20. No source code is available for either version.

The second emulator I use is HP-41X by Hrastprogrammer, on my HP-48GX. In many ways, this is the most successful of all the simulations, because it's implemented on a calculator, not a computer. That means the interface needs less adaptation, and is truer to the original. Add to that the fact that the emulation is good enough to run HEPAX and other advanced 41C modules, and you have a real winner. HP-41X is commercial software, with no source code available.

The third emulator I use is Nonpareil. This is the only one that runs on Linux natively. This is important to me because I like to minimize my use of Microsoft software. The source code is available under the GPL, which means that most questions I have can be answered by looking at the actual implementation in the source. Nonpareil is also unique in its ability to simulate dozens of early HP machines, in addition to the 41C/V/X. It runs on Windows too.

Finally, I have V41 installed on my primary Calc/Windows gateway machine. It's simulation is also very good. I don't use it much because the others fill in most places I want a emulator. But I've been looking at SDK41, which is also by Warren Furlow. It's a suite of mcode development software that runs on DOS. It includes a 41C emulator that is probably a predecessor to V41. The interesting thing about that is it claims to be able to use the HPIL ISA card to communicate with a real 41. It's got me wondering if V41 will do that too. The source code is available under the GPL, so I can find out, whenever my idle curiosity turns into action. 8)

Hope this helps,
Howard

      
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #4 Posted by Thomas Okken on 18 Dec 2005, 6:42 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by PeterP

There's also P41CX for PalmOS. It simulates the 41CX, ROMs, and printer.

- Thomas

            
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #5 Posted by Eric Smith on 18 Dec 2005, 9:29 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Thomas Okken

Based on nsim 0.5 (prececessor of Nonpareil) by... me! :-)

The base application is GPL'd, so you can get it for free. It's only the add-ons that you have to pay for. (And I don't receive any of the proceeds.)

Edited: 18 Dec 2005, 9:31 p.m.

      
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #6 Posted by Mike T. on 20 Dec 2005, 5:04 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by PeterP

When running Linux I usually have a copy of Nonpareil running somewhere in the background...

Mike T.

      
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #7 Posted by J-F Garnier on 20 Dec 2005, 8:26 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by PeterP

For EMU I have trouble locating the bin files (and don't want to go through the trouble of producing them myself for all the fine mods out there. Any tips?),

I guess that by EMU you mean Emu41.

You could have a look at this thread where I gave some tips for using ROM with Emu41.

I wouldn't say Emu41 is the best, but it suits my needs (I made it for that) and some people seem to like it, too...

J-F

            
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #8 Posted by PeterP on 20 Dec 2005, 9:38 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by J-F Garnier

Thanks a lot guys, that is very helpful!

Cheers

Peter

            
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #9 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 20 Dec 2005, 9:20 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by J-F Garnier

Thank you very much, J-F, that's exactly what I wanted to know but was ashamed to ask! Thanks for Emu41LX too.

Now I have a 41CX with the Advantage ROM up and running on the 200LX. It's going to be be nice to play with while I wait for the real things to arrive (my first 41 ever!).

Best regards,

Gerson.

                  
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #10 Posted by PeterP on 20 Dec 2005, 11:20 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Gerson W. Barbosa

not knowing and asking is the prerogative of me, the newbie ;-) What 41 are you getting?

                        
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #11 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 21 Dec 2005, 8:02 a.m.,
in response to message #10 by PeterP

Hi Peter,

Answering your question, a very nice 41CX and an Advantage PAC. The latter is important because I want it to have the advanced functions the 15C (my first HP calc) has.

Now, my time to ask: what accessories do you think I should get? I don't want to key in long programs and I want to have a back-up of my programs. A card reader and a wand? Or a device to link it to the PC?

Regards,

Gerson.

                              
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #12 Posted by PeterP on 21 Dec 2005, 12:46 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Gerson W. Barbosa

In terms of accessories, here is what I use and love:

1) CCD, as it offers lots of matrix functions (albeit some say inferior to the Advantage), alpha functions as well as direct entry of Synthetic instructions. The latter I use a lot for the synthetic registers M, N, O, a as they work faster than normal storage registers like 00, 01 etc. Raymond Del Todo produced a special soft-mod version called OS/X which is halve the size and offers only the direct entry of synthetic indstructions. It is a perfect complement to the Advantage module I'd say, that you have already. However you will need one of the goodies I mention in section 3) to take advantage of that great piece of work.

2) Storage of programs: Here I'm a bit of a snob and use a CMT 512k ramDrive. It is really small, really fast, really portable, really big capacity. And as they are Hp-IL compatible, you could use it for your 71 as well... They are a bit hard to get though, you might want to try the Classified section here. CardReaders are relativly cheap (just make sure you get a repaired one, the non-repaired ones just produce gluey cards... The Classified section as well as eBay might be a good source here), yet they use lots of battery and it might be a lot of cards to store a long program (they store only 16 register per card per side). The upshot is that I like the feel of the 41 with the attached cardreader in the hand a lot, it's much more solid and balanced than without. But that's just me.

3) There are certain modules out there which only exist in software form, that I think are outstanding and really helpful in programming the 41. For normal purposes and math, the Sandbox (generally usefull functions), SandMath (higher math) and the 41Z (complex number module) from Angel Martin come to mind. For MCODE (which might you might want to tackle later on), David Assembler comes to mind (and naturally HEPAX and to a lesser extend IMHO Zenrom, which are available as hard modules as well as soft-roms). To use all this wonderful things (and the CCD I mentioned earlier), one can use either a Clonix/NoVram module from Diego Diaz (160 Euro I think) or the MLDL from Meindert Kuipers (260 Euro), both of which offer lots of great features to load in all those modules as well as connection to the PC (albeit in a bit of an indirect way).

4) For entering programs that others have written, the best way is to get a Wand, as one can produce barcodes. However, I don't do that a lot. I either program myself (that's why we have them in the first place, right?) or just type in the programs. You should be able to buy on either here or on eBay for about 75 USD.

5) Link to PC is as of yet not particularily straight forward IMHO. Christoph Klug has build a great PC board (160 Euro I think), which howerver is only ISA, so you'll need an old PC and the HP-IL module. The connection from the MLDL is via USB, so quite easy, yet by no means offers the same functionality as Christophs board (it basically allows you to use the PC as a RamDisk. it also provides the connectivity to the simulaters around. So you can program on your PC in a simulater, test out your programs using their programming environment and then load them onto your 41 for on the go.

6) There is a great amount of literature out there that is fantastic in learning about your 41. Here are my favorites a) Extend your HP 41, from Mier-Jedrejowicz. It is also called the "the red bible". When you are through with this book and its exercises, you've propelled yourself to the top quintile of HP 41 users around the world I'd say. b) Keith Jarrets "Synthetic Programming Made Easy", the best introduction into the Synthetic Programming world, which - as a great side-benefit - will teach you a great deal on how the 41 works internally c) MCODE for Beginners, from Ken Emery, the only book I know that was written on MCODE for the 41, for if and when you want to go into MCODE programming.

So what's the bottom line? if you were to get only one thing to your current outfit, I'd get the NoVram from Diego. It will give you access to virtually all available modules, including all the ones I mentioned to use on your HP on a daily basis. And a cardreader for storing programs. The total cost of this is about 200-225 Euro. The other option would be to try to get a MLDL from Meindert (260 Euro if you solder it together, 360 if he does), which will give you far more storage space and a fast connection to the PC to store your PGMS as well (with a little, easy trick), however at a bigger form-factor (it has the size of the CardReader vs NoVram is just a plug in Module. And then get the red bible from Mier-Jedrejowicz and you're set for quite a while...

But that's just me, and close to what I did to get me started on the HP 41. Lets hear the suggestions from others!

Cheers

Peter

Edited: 21 Dec 2005, 5:42 p.m.

                                    
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #13 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 21 Dec 2005, 7:01 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by PeterP

Thanks for your comprehensive suggestions. I had already been advised to get Diego Diaz's CLONIX, but since I was just interested in only one PAC I chose to get that first. I may go for this and other peripherals later, as I need them.

Thanks also for the book recommendations. They'll be needed when I finish reading all manuals. Anyway, I don't want to be any 41 guru. I missed that boat 25 years ago... :-)

Cheers,

Gerson.

                                    
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #14 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 22 Dec 2005, 2:41 a.m.,
in response to message #12 by PeterP

Peter,

Quote:
The other option would be to try to get a MLDL from Meindert [...], which will give you far more storage space and a fast connection to the PC to store your PGMS as well (with a little, easy trick), [...]

Can explain the trick in some more detail? Are you talking about the Hepax file system?

                                          
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #15 Posted by PeterP on 22 Dec 2005, 10:39 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

I did it using the WW Rambox OS (comes with the V41 emulator in the /mod subdirectory. Just use the extraction tool from Warren to get it in rom form).

Enable a page in the MLDL, without write protection. "INITPG" it with something like "-My41PGMS" (I think it needs 6+ chars to show up in Cat 2). Then save your programs to that page. After you are done, you can "download" that rom in the MLDL Gui on the PC and save it for later use.

Same stuff can be done with a 4k MCODE block. You either program in the MLDL directly (not sure if that works, have not tried yet) or do a "COPYBLCK" operation from the place where you have it into the MLDL (I've transfered my WW Zenprom programing OS that way from a RAMBOX to my PC). Clearly, if you have already a full block in say a Clonix or Rambox filled with programs, the above "COPYROM" procedure works just as fine to save your whole block of user-programs to the MLDL and from there to the PC.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Peter

                                                
Re: Best Simulaton for 41
Message #16 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 23 Dec 2005, 4:57 a.m.,
in response to message #15 by PeterP

Thanks for the info. I'll check the WW module when I've time.


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