HP Forum Archive 13

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49g+ first impressions... Message #1 Posted by harryb on 7 Nov 2003, 5:26 a.m. I picked up the 49g+ from the local uni bookshop today, and after paying them I opened the box on their counter (in the event something was wrong with the unit and I could just get my money back there and then - it was a special order so its not like they could replace it). Firtsly I examined the unit: top left hand corner rubber foot was partially disintegrated; hp badge on front was stuck slightly askew; unit felt very light, less dense to what I am accustomed to with the 48GX and 49g at home. After inserting the batteries, I ran the diagnostics and everything checked out. The display initially felt somewhat convex even though it's totally flat and flush with the surface plane. Ran through some calculations and operations to get a feel for the response and was pleasantly surprised. It felt very snappy, considerably faster than the 48gx and the 49g. The keyboard was fine, although it does require above average pressure to get the tactile feedback. Once you get used to it its fine. I noticed the intermittent flickering on the bottom 2 pixel rows of the screen. This can be distracting as it occurs with the frequency of a hearbeat. Its something else one has to accustom themselves to, but it is not as bad as it sounds. The case was a surprise. It looks rather upmarket. The manuals seem to get sadder with each incarnation - how much could it cost - across each unit sold to hire a writer for a couple of months to jazz up the manuals? I finally took the unit and left the bookshop, heading for the cafeteria for some more investigation. In case you're wondering, I was not particularly fazed about the rubber foot and from reading this newsgroup I gather that a ROM upgrade is going to correct the "hearbeat". My overall impression is that the calculator division at HP rushed this product out unashamedly. The flickering is simply unacceptable for a product of this generation. The skewed orientation of the logo is an ironic testimony of the evolution of hp philosophy since Carly took the reins. Perhaps Fred (Valdez) is to blame. Whatever the case is, people like myself with a long history of ownership of hp computing products (and I'm talking hp67 here) have a preconception that I suspect cannot be fulfilled any longer. Would I recommend you buy it? Certainly! Compared to what's out there it's a great computing device that is superior to its predecessors. The quality control is not what one would expect from hp or any other company of that nature, however.

It's all about RESPECT Message #2 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 7 Nov 2003, 6:05 a.m., in response to message #1 by harryb harryb posted: "People like myself with a long history of ownership of hp computing products (and I'm talking hp67 here) have a preconception that I suspect cannot be fulfilled any longer." [harryb, please notice this reply does not address you *personally*, but all of us people interested in HP calcs] Oh yes it can. It's only many such people are sadly missing the target: instead of wasting your hard-earned money in such Chinese-junk, defective products, released by a company that no longer shows the slightest trace of RESPECT for their long-time loyal, professional, knowledgeable customers, you'd rather be advised to instead shift your targets to the really truly excellent vintage machines of the past, such as classic HPs and SHARPs, among others, which despite 20+ years having elapsed, still can run rings in quality and usability around any abortion KinHPo throws down on us. Some would argue that modern models are much more powerful than vintage ones. First of all, that's absolutely debatable, as it fully depends on the intended uses and how well does the particular machine fit those uses. Me, I have no use for CAS on a calculator at all, whatsoever. Secondly, there's the vital 'enjoyment' factor. We used to fully ENJOY former HP machines when they were released, and we did ANYTHING, including selling the former one or fasting on water and bread for several months [hello, Tapani] in order to get the cash to buy the new machine, because we KNEW that it would be a wonderful achievement, state-of-the-art handheld computing device. There was always the 'I want more RAM' or 'I want more speed', but everyone was delighted with the HP-65, the HP-25, the HP-67, the HP-15C, the HP-41. No sacrifice was too big as we KNEW it was well worth it, absolutely. We were DELIGHTED, with capitals, for lack of a better word. Those of you who, like me, have been through the 25, 67, 41, fully know the experience and can relate to that heart-and-mind enthralling FEELING. Now, can any of you say the same about any of the new KinHPo offerings ? Are you DELIGHTED with them ? Do they raise goose bumps ? Do you feel ecstatic ? Do you feel you've got a truly quality item that you're proud to own and to show everyone, no matter the cost ? Or on the contrary, are you trying hard to get used to that dreaded keyboard, and inventing excuses to justify it doesn't work as reliably and ergonomically as it should ? And that nasty flicker ? That 'hollow' feeling ? The manuals ? The umpteenth ROM upgrade which cures a bunch of bugs and introduces yet anothers ? Can you trust the results ? Can you enumerate the nasty bugs the HP-67 had ? And those of the HP-15C ? Would you consider the HP-41C bugs (which opened the door to synthetic programming) to be nasty ? What about the HP-41C Owner's Handbook ? And the 4-colour, spiral HP-67 Owner's Handbook ? What about the HP-15C's keyboard ? What about ENJOYMENT and PRIDE, when users where considered outstanding professionals and valued customers, and RESPECTED like such ? Me, I'll take disrespect from NOBODY, and much less pay for it. Can you say the same ? What new excuse will you come up with ? Best regards from V.

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #3 Posted by Gene on 7 Nov 2003, 7:40 a.m., in response to message #2 by Valentin Albillo Hi Valentin. Couple of thoughts: 1) "Can you trust the results?" Gene: Certainly, especially for all non-CAS functions. Since you say you have no need for a CAS, you would have no concerns at all about what the calculator returns. 2) DIsplay flicker? Gene: My guess is this has to do with powering down the ARM processor into some sort of rest state. It happens about 1.5 seconds after you press ENTER for example. Someone has posted a fix (Pressing ON uparrow) that makes this go away. I just can't believe people are so fixed on this. Who would have ever guessed a slight flicker primarily on the bottom row of the display would be such a show-stopper indicating HP would never again make anything worth owning! 3) Hollow feeling? Gene: Well, as industry gets more and more advanced, functions can be put into smaller and smaller spaces. I guess HP could have put some lead into parts of the case. That would have stopped these complaints, but that would make no sense. 4) Rom upgrades? Gene: The 49G+ is probably 50X more complex (or more) than the 41c. The 41c had BAD rom bugs the first time it was out too. Remember not saving X to LASTX when doing a SIGMA+ operation? Technology allows these to be fixed without having to send the machine back to the factory. I consider it a good compromise...more functionality/complexity carries a risk. If I dont' want any bugs, I can go back and use a much less complex machine, I guess. 5) Delighted with the kinpo offering? Gene: The people to whom I have shown my 49G+ and 48GII HAVE in fact thought they looked great. They are amazed at what these machines can do...things one cannot do with an HP67, HP34C or HP41c. 6) Keyboard? Gene: It certainly appears that early machines have keyboard problems. It ALSO appears (Harryb stated this specifically) that his keyboard does NOT have these problems. The problem appears to have been corrected. People who bought very early who have keyboard complaints have a remedy too. Summary? Are there things I wish HP would improve? Sure, of course. I wish the manuals were at the 99% complete level. I wish they had fewer mistakes, grammar and otherwise. I do not see things with the doom and gloom you present. I see the glass as almost full. Some see it not quite full and feel ripped off. Cordially, Gene :-)

HP49G+ is a JOKE Message #4 Posted by Linda on 7 Nov 2003, 12:11 p.m., in response to message #3 by Gene Gene: I can only support Valentin, he is COMPLETELY right! A graphing calculator is ABSOLUTELY NONSENSE ! It is for pupils (maybe students, but only because the do not have any money to spend) that make their first steps in analysis and algebra, it is not for engineers, not for professionals. For example you cannot see any details of a functional curve on such a coarse and small LCD display. There are even no numbers at the axes. Imagine a 3D plot! That is a JOKE ! It is like a text editor on a cell phone (with 10 number keys), absolutely ridiculous. It is a TOY only ! Not a serious instrument ! Not only graphics, also algebra/analytical calculus: Such a HP49G+ is only a toy if compared to MATHEMATICA, MAPLE, MATLAB. If you once have used Mathematica or Matlab (high complexity but indeed easy to use!), you can only laugh on toys like HP49G+. And HP49G+ speed is 1000 times slower than Mathematica and Matlab on my 1.2 GHz subnotebook (imagine if you had a 3 GHz notebook!). I would say the HP49G+ is only the afterglow of an ending history, the history of the technical calculator. They will die out very soon and be replaced by strong software packets that can be installed on a handheld multimedia device as will be the PDA of the next generation. Such an item will have all the office software, mp3 music tank, personal photo galery, built-in digital camera, built-in cell phone, built-in internet via wireless LAN, built-in GPS with maps, and much more. Maybe having these different options like plug-in modules (remember the HP-41 plug-in concept with user flexibility). Such a PDA will have calc emulators that you want to have AND IT CAN HAVE SOFTWARE LIKE MATHEMATICA/MATLAB. As HP49G+ is not a serious, a professional instrument but only a toy to play with, better take the HP-41CX to play with. It is much more FUN! Valentin is completely right here! Linda Edited: 7 Nov 2003, 12:11 p.m.

Re: HP49G+ is a JOKE Message #5 Posted by Tom Scott on 7 Nov 2003, 12:46 p.m., in response to message #4 by Linda You may be right that the 49G+ is mostly a "toy" but for me, that's what all my calculators are. As you say, with modern scientific/math software, complex problems can be more easily solved and displayed graphically with a computer. However, even though I enjoy the quality feel of my HP=67s, HP42s, etc., I still enjoy "playing" with the 49G+ because it has so many more features. Of course many of these features could be programed into the earlier models but often it's nice to have them at your fingertips (so to speak). I find my biggest use of calculators is using them as I read various technical journals to double check certain numbers and answer questions of my own. For this purpose, the 49G+ with it's built-in constants library, etc. is very handy. Tom Scott

Graphing Calculators Message #6 Posted by Tom Sherman on 7 Nov 2003, 2:49 p.m., in response to message #4 by Linda Not to say that the small screen on a graphing calculator is as nice as a full-size computer monitor, nor that the functionality approaches that of Mathematica, but: 1) Details of any part of the graph can be examined by use of the Zoom feature. 2) The coordinates of any point on the graph can be seen by using the Trace mode. 3) Many interesting studies can be made. For example, it is illuminating for a student (or a retired college professor) to see how closely a Taylor series approximates a function such as the sine curve as the number of terms in the polynomial is increased. A web plot of a non-linear system approaching chaos can be made. The exponential flux of materials through a multi-compartment system can be investigated. Etc. etc. It doesn't have to be a toy unless that is what you want it to be. This is a separate issue from whether or not anyone should consider that calculators made by Kinpo, such as the 49G+, have any relation to the HP represented in this Museum. HP calculators could be becoming like designer jeans: somebody else makes them, HP just puts its logo on them, sometimes getting them crooked at that. Tom

Re: HP49G+ is a JOKE Message #7 Posted by HrastProgrammer on 8 Nov 2003, 1:37 a.m., in response to message #4 by Linda A graphing calculator is ABSOLUTELY NONSENSE ! It is for pupils (maybe students, but only because the do not have any money to spend) that make their first steps in analysis and algebra, it is not for engineers, not for professionals. Sorry to say this, but if you don't know how to use a graphing calculator then don't use it, but don't make negative comments about it. They are built for the real professionals who know how to use and program them. I am sick of people who are constantly praising their old calculators because they are so simple and intuitive to use. For me, HP-48GX is the best calculator HP ever made. And it is simple to use as HP-41C. I also love old calculators, like HP-41C, HP-42S and HP-71B, very much. I fact, I love all of them so much that I emulated HP-41C/CV/CX/42S/71B on my new and extremly powerful HP-48GX. And I still don't know which of them is the best because each of them is the best for some particular thing. And, believe me, I know what I am talking about. I love HP-49G a little less because of the poor keyboard and display but not because it is a graphing calculator. So, Linda and all the others, stop shitting about HP-48S/SX/G/G+/GX and HP-49G/G+ if you are not capable to understand them and use them properly. Just return to your old toys (perhaps you can find one on eBay for >500 USD). Or use Mathematica because there is nothing wrong about it. I agree that HP-49G+ has some flaws but this is due to a quality control and some bad design desicions ... not because it is a graphing calculator.

Could not let it pass... (brief appearance so far) Message #8 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 8 Nov 2003, 10:45 p.m., in response to message #7 by HrastProgrammer Hi, Hrast; good reading your posts again. After about ten days without reading the MoHPC messages (shame on me...), I read some late posts and I found myself nostalgic: where have they gone, those tech chats we used to find here at tons? Well, maybe it's a sign of the times: new calcs, new subjects. For these days I'm in a rush teaching Linux (basic), IBM-PC based architecture and connectivity and Interface Design, and spare time is something I'm begging for... I can't help myself, Hrast: I must agree with you in many aspects. If "ancient" technology prevails, no tech development is required, no design engineers are needed, and we would simply see the old stuff being sold as new, and the only new achievement would be the brand new "coat". I think that we should not close our eyes to the new and simply keep the past technology, because both new and old technology can coexist. Any of us that have already dealt with vacuum tubes know what I'm talking about. Some weeks ago, I saw an announcement where an IBM-PC compatible mainboard was shown with a built-in sound system where a vacuum tube is used as the output stage. I saw it in a flash, but that announcement made me remember that some of the most expensive, professional CD players used to have vacuum-tube based analog circuits. What to say? The fact is that we do not see this sort of "course of action" in some companies, that are only in search for profit, profit and profit. In these companies (would HP be elected this way?), R&D dept. is a waste of money, what matters is sales, no matter what to sale. If one can sale the same product all the time, that's profit. If the existing product needs improvement and redesign, that's waste. Anyway, I'd not throw away my solid-state, digitally controlled sound system (with home-built output stage and sound boxes) for a vacuum-tube based sound system, even if vinyl players are included. I like the way CD's "sound". In time: no low-quality, 128K MP3, please. I developed many stuff with the help of RPL-based machines. I program them as well (user RPL only, no SYS RPL neither machine coded SW), as I also plot small graphs so I can have an idea of what's going on in some situations. The only thing I have not done yet is extensively using a computer-based math SW. I tried MathLab at the university because the teacher suggested it was useful for neural net applications. I felt it somehow boring and I asked the teacher if I could implement all neural net applications (learning database) in an HP49G. He simply told me: "If you can do so..." And I did it. With small routines. The complete listings were about half a "letter-size" page, Helvetica 10 font. The routines were slow, but worked perfectly fine. And I neither used a computer, nor an specific SW; instead, a US$190 graphing calculator. Oh, yes: I still have the "Electronics International", where the HP41CV is announced at 325 bux! (June 2 1981 issue, p.231) Just to add my points of view. Best regards. Luiz (Brazil) Edited: 9 Nov 2003, 12:19 a.m.

Re: Could not let it pass... (brief appearance so far) Message #9 Posted by HrastProgrammer on 9 Nov 2003, 2:05 a.m., in response to message #8 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Hello Luiz ... How are you? Nice to hear from you after a long time, my friend. I missed your posts which were always excellent and full of information ... I hope you will be more active in the future :-)

Implementing AI routines ... Message #10 Posted by Artur on 10 Nov 2003, 7:06 p.m., in response to message #8 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Hi, Luiz, interesting: I'm also a Brazilian and took the same reaction when was asked to implement the BackPropagation algorithim (I don't know how to write this in English). I just implemented it in my HPGX ! Lets talk about AI and calculators -my passion! Artur

Re: Implementing AI routines ... and message to all Message #11 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 14 Nov 2003, 9:46 p.m., in response to message #10 by Artur Hi, Artur; I sent you an e-mail. Please, folks, forgive me. I'm taking all measures in order to get back soon, and I'm sometimes reading posts in a 6- do 10-day checking basis. I'm setting up some stuff, and after I'm up to go, I'll post about some stuff I've promised. which includes: - Tandberg TCD 300 maintenance data; - Load Flow program for the HP42S and some former HP41's listings; - Collecting data, Data acquisition, Linux and HP calculators (Hey, Tony Duell; I think I need some guidance here about the best way to collect data (HW) and show it graphically in Linux. Have you done something like this? GTK, TK/Tcl, C-routines, whatever... Anyone else with related data or interest?). - if applicable, AI and Neural Network with RPL-based calculators (is there an easy, low memory consuming way to do this in an RPN-based calculator?), after Artur's call. I'm feeling I'm getting back "home" (here) soon... Cheers, to all. Luiz (Brazil) Edited: 15 Nov 2003, 10:41 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

Re: ... and message to all Message #12 Posted by james (UK) on 15 Nov 2003, 4:10 a.m., in response to message #11 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Hi Luiz Hurry back. Looking forward to hearing about your exploits. Best, James

Linda...... Message #13 Posted by Norm on 8 Nov 2003, 3:36 a.m., in response to message #4 by Linda Linda..... Eloquent words about the 49G+ I couldn't agree more. How about a date ? :o)

Classic HP is like a good old bottle of wine Message #14 Posted by Linda on 8 Nov 2003, 7:01 a.m., in response to message #13 by Norm ;-) .BTW, the HP-34C is indeed a great machine ... And the HP-41, and the HP-15C (e.g./there are more of course ...) BTW, a good "feeling", a good keyboard CANNOT be emulated by any emulator in the world, neither on PC nor on PDA. So it seems to be a good choice to cover both worlds, to use a complex multimedia machine (small PC or future PDA) - of course also incorporating a good emulator of a great classic HP - and to own and use a great classic calculator that conserves the feeling of real thrill. Valentin wrote: "We were DELIGHTED, with capitals, for lack of a better word. Those of you who, like me, have been through the 25, 67, 41, fully know the experience and can relate to that heart-and-mind enthralling FEELING [...] What about ENJOYMENT and PRIDE [...]" Yes, that's it, Valentin, you've got it! One cannot add any further word to it ...! OK, maybe still one sentence: Life is too short to drink a red win for 1.5 bucks a bottle, and life is too short to spend a huge amount of your valuable spare time to handle a suboptimal*) device ... P.S.: --- LONG P.S. ---- *) a typical example for a very suboptimal device is the HP-49G+: HP (i.e. the new "Compaq-HP-Agilent" shareholder value oriented company") tried to implement an over-complex functionality in a device, in order to become the "calculator of the calculators". But "HP" failed. "HP" had to fail. Because such a complexity (submenus over submenus) is on the one hand no longer efficiently adressable via human interface (only if you spend all your spare time in learning and not forgetting to use it) and on the other hand not meeting professional demands. Will there be any engineer or researcher, writing a long routine for complex calculus on a tipsy 49G-calcy, then downloading it to PC, converting/re-writing the code on a PC, then at last displaying/printing convenient plots with Matlab or Origin ;-) ? I think this is no professional way of working. For solving real mathematical problems all researchers, physicists and engineers I know only use the professional software on a PC or notebook but NEVER an overloaded plastic toy. Sometimes you see an HP-48 or so on their desk but they only use them for "1 enter 1 +" or "sin(pi)". But if they see your HP-15C or your HP-41CX on your desk, their faces brighten and they say ... "oh, you still use such a great old HP calc? ... Yes, they were great ... I am missing them" Edited: 8 Nov 2003, 11:22 a.m.

yeah right on, red wine = red LED's Message #15 Posted by Norm on 8 Nov 2003, 2:31 p.m., in response to message #14 by Linda Linda, I like your posts. They are refreshing. By the way RED LED's can be considered similar to your vintage RED WINE..... either is a prize. They are so crisp and intriguing to look at. In a word, RED LED's are FUN. Know what's pathetic? Any corporation could restart the production of a cool looking display like that. Just the same one from before.... but with modern low-power LED technology so the batteries would last a long time. Hey they could go multi-color, they could do a field of LED pixels. There's all sorts of things they could build that would be inspired and intriguing (grey LCD is boring in comparison to the original red LED's). The reason they don't take a leap is because these are not the inspired and visionary innovators who built the originals. These are corporate rot, parasites and fakers, who are feasting upon the fruits of the original visionaries. The originals are long gone. The fakers remain to feast upon the labors of the original inventors, and that's about all the huge corporation and their excessive take home pay, all created thru the original people with a vision. But they can't build what the original guys built. They just build a bunch of trash until we are tired of them. Finally it takes some other company to proceed in their place (I believe Agilent would be that company, a company that could restart the building of calculators that technical and academic professionals would be proud to use). Other examples would be Boeing Co. (after building somethign so cool as the original 747 in the 70's, complete with 'James Bond' spiral staircase, now they can't be bothered to try anything clever and new, not even so much as that near-sonic cruiser, they just want to knock out more 737's for Southwest Airlines, yawwwn). How about Cessna corporation, building that same old Cessna 172 for beginning aviation..... designed in the 1930's ?!? It sure was. Engine and everything. After 70 years, can't be bothered to innovate, only the original people did that. Everywhere you look, overpaid business/marketeer types carefully eliminate the products we want to buy, and offer us something ghastly instead. Was talking with a gal who agree'd with me and had her own story........ she had been trampling thru all the stores trying to find a ladies LCD wristwatch, an elegant, thin, chrome-type of thing. They were all over the place in the past. Men had bigger watches, ladies had the thin ones. All she can find is "sports" ladies watches, that are big hulking black plastic things. It was an obvious coup of the marketeers, to eliminate what she wanted to buy.......... but she did win out at the end......... the models that were suppressed by the marketeers.... well she found a few on the internet! The internet is the one way that we can try to get around these berzerk marketeers who discontinue what we want.... if you look real real hard, there often is still some supplier somewhere, then you don't patronize these mega-corporations who tried to shut off the flow of good product.

Re: yeah right on, Sorry Norm, I gotta disagree Message #16 Posted by jimc on 8 Nov 2003, 3:46 p.m., in response to message #15 by Norm Norm, usually I agree with you, but this time you went just a little too far. Your aircraft industry analogy was right on, except when you said: "How about Cessna corporation, building that same old Cessna 172 for beginning aviation..... designed in the 1930's ?!? It sure was. Engine and everything. After 70 years, can't be bothered to innovate, only the original people did that." This is one of the reasons we covet the old HP's. The previous incarnations of the HP calc. was diluted in the quest for innovation and "gizmos" to make more money. I think you were referring to the evolution of the product rather than the complete re-designing/re-inventing. While each generation was improved, there came a time when the suits ruled the gears - thats when Kinpo came in to the equation. I suspect that if the mfg of the 172 were cut off tomorrow, you'd find a "172 Museum" where people would be doing what we do here. Bash Boeing, but I think Cessna is sticking with a winner...kind of what I'd like to see HP do. 12345

Re: yeah right on, Message #17 Posted by Norm on 8 Nov 2003, 8:46 p.m., in response to message #16 by jimc Actually I like a lot about the Cessna 172, but it was designed in the 1930's (? at least that's the rumor) and so was the engine. I like the high-wing airplane. The 172 allows you to ride along and see the ground very well, and the wing tends to provide you with shade. It's also nice for doing the walkaround inspection (terrible in a crosswind however, high-wing can tip the whole thing over). Say you like high wing. Even so, it has a mild pitch instability because the mass of the plane is hanging well below the wing. The resulting symptoms are called "pitch cycles". It would be so easy to put in a little electronic system to eliminate the pitch cycles...... and the whole thing could cost about $500 or less, and make it much nicer to fly. But then.... that would require *gasp* innovation! Can't have that !!

Re: yeah right on, Off Topic Message #18 Posted by bill platt on 9 Nov 2003, 3:13 p.m., in response to message #17 by Norm My father owned a Cessna 172 in the 1960's--he sold it around 1970. It was the older fast-back style with the more upright vertical tail. He had tricycle gear, no wheelpants, and got about 25 mpg at something like 90 or 100 knots. I can just barely remember it, but he even flew us to vacation in Canada, and he took some xcontinet trips in it. It cost him USD $10,000. His number was N7500T. I remember because every airplane I ever drew when I was little had that number on it :-) He still has all the cool slide rules, the VOR-TAC stuff, the pee-in-a-bucket set-up etc. Anyway, one day it was blowing really hard, so he went down to Fair____ airfield (now called Balt. Wash Int'l) and there he found his airplane flying itself--a few inches off the ground--against the tie-downs!. He said it was pretty amazing to see!

Re: Linda...... Message #19 Posted by Linda on 9 Nov 2003, 4:28 a.m., in response to message #13 by Norm Norm, proposal accepted. Please advise: where and when? I will be wearing a nice red-led 34c around my neck. 12345

This forum is used for everything, even for dating ... Message #20 Posted by Lonely Man on 9 Nov 2003, 11:49 p.m., in response to message #19 by Linda ... and wine, and Cessnas, ...

Re: Linda...... Message #21 Posted by Norm on 10 Nov 2003, 3:35 a.m., in response to message #19 by Linda Linda..... what state are you in ? I don't mean psychologically, but more like geographical. As to me, I will also bring an HP-34C on this dinner date. Not only is it a match made in heaven, it will be easier for us to do our calculations in that dimly lit restaurant! :o)

Re: Linda...... Message #22 Posted by David Smith on 11 Nov 2003, 3:32 p.m., in response to message #19 by Linda Linda, Stay away from Norm. His real name is Abe Normal. He drools on classic keyboards...

Re: HP49G+ is a JOKE Message #23 Posted by Arnaud Amiel on 8 Nov 2003, 3:38 a.m., in response to message #4 by Linda I am an engineer and I find that using a graphic calc, I usually get a good understanding of my system faster than the time it would take me to go back to my desk or boot my PC. Of course when I want the details I use a PC but in my work I do spend as much time getting a rough understanding of systems behaviours (calc) as getting into the details. Arnaud

Re: HP49G+ is a JOKE Message #24 Posted by JasonG on 8 Nov 2003, 2:41 p.m., in response to message #4 by Linda Hi there Linda wrote: 'A graphing calculator is ABSOLUTELY NONSENSE ! It is for pupils (maybe students, but only because the do not have any money to spend) that make their first steps in analysis and algebra, it is not for engineers, not for professionals.' Well, as an engineer, and a professional, I have to disagree most strongly. I use Matlab, Octave, Mathematica, Mathcad AND a variety of calculators, both graphing and plain scientific, and I really have to say that the calculators most definitely have their place. Mathematica et al are certainly very powerful and good to use (once you learn how!) but they are often far more than is needed. Some calculations often need to be carried out 'in the field' and a laptop is usually just too much hassle. You may think that ~$700 for a laptop and $1200 for Mathematica, $1000 for Matlab (and $0 for Octave, but that's another discussion) or any similar setup is 'peanuts' but _my_ employer (a large UK electronic engineering employer) won't pay that sort of money for something that won't be used to it's full potential. I have to agree with them actually...if I show that using a modern, powerful, graphing calculator can't make the grade then my boss will happily sign the requisition for Mathematica but I doubt if waiting 10 minutes for my shiney new 49g+ would be a good reason. Mind you, I also regularly use a slide rule (I have a few!) and thoroughly enjoy using them. Again, they have their place and used in that situation they excel. Unlike Excel. :-) Don said: 'A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?' And he's right you know. :-) t'ra JasonG

Re: HP49G+ is a JOKE Message #25 Posted by Hugh Wong on 13 Nov 2003, 4:45 p.m., in response to message #4 by Linda You guys complains too much, we all in a panic when we found out HP no longer makes RPN calculators a few month ago. Now HP give us some light and we complain !

You bet you're right! ;^) Message #26 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 14 Nov 2003, 9:23 p.m., in response to message #25 by Hugh Wong I completely support your words, Hugh! Well said! Luiz (Brazil)

Luiz iz back ! Message #27 Posted by Norm on 15 Nov 2003, 2:08 a.m., in response to message #26 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Hey Luiz, hadn't seen you post in awhile. Took time out myself. Did you ever figure out anything more on why the HP Spice calculators are vulnerable to "2 disease" ?? Best wishes to Brazil.

Yeap! I'm doing my best to...(was: Luiz iz back !) Message #28 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 15 Nov 2003, 10:46 p.m., in response to message #27 by Norm Hey, Norm! Thanks for mentioning! (my regards to Captain Zener, please) So far, not much from what I've been reading about. The last news were from one other contributor asking about the "2 disease" and your supporting reply. Have you read this post of mine? I'm a lot interested on going "in deep"! As many subjects as possible, "2 disease" included. Any tips, tricks and valuable ideas? Don't you have any schematics? Best regards, Norm. Be well! Luiz (Brazil)

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #29 Posted by Angel Martin on 7 Nov 2003, 3:14 p.m., in response to message #2 by Valentin Albillo Valentin, Kudos to your posting. I may not have expressed it with such vehement clarity but I do suscribe to the spirit of your text. I don't know, perhaps it's got something to do with generational changes, and shifting of percieved and/or real value. Whatever reasons we had to react how we did are well gone these days. Not saying it was better, just that it was. But whatever is is, I still regard our way (as weird as it could feel to others) as the most pleasurable of all:- Unfortunately it's bound to make us feel the new fads as disrespect! Best wishes, AM.

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #30 Posted by harryb on 8 Nov 2003, 12:31 a.m., in response to message #2 by Valentin Albillo Indeed. You have encapsulated what I feel on a bad day. When I zoom out and see what products out there, aside from calculators, have maintained a high standard of quality I am reminded that very few have. I look at my wrist and see a faithful Rolex Sea Dweller that I purchased 20 years ago still ticking perfectly, but everywhere else I look I see the irrevocable law of economics that has supplanted the leadership of so many companies out there - make as much profit as possible by delivering the least possible. Why should Carly, and I say Carly because no other leader at HP has so fundamentally changed the culture at HP, invest in this product line when there are far more viable income streams associated with production and sales of paper and other consumables. Why make a fine calculator key that costs $1 when you can make one for $0.20 that does a reasonable job? The key (pardon the unintended pun) is in the spread of profit. Old dinosaurs like us (I'm 38) who once had the romantic affair with HP products must realize that HP does not exist anymore, nor likely will it ever exist again. The economic models simply will prevent it. We must bite the bullet and either purchase a product that makes our stomach churn or head towards TI. Unfortunately, my love for RPN has always been a factor in not heading TI's way. If you desire the sort of timeless quality of product that the old HP had I suggest you look towards other companies like B&O, Rolex, etc. They do not make calculators, but they do make products that "meet real needs and provide lasting value". Their business model will ensure that quality will never be comromised for market share (I have never seen an economy Rolex). The old HP is dead. It will never return. That we must accept. It does not prevent us from dreaming, however: a scaled down port of Mathematica running on a PDA device would solve (pardon the pun) our problems. Most of them anyhow. Unlikely that Mr Wolfram would be interested despite the obvious new markets that such a port would create. Perhaps if we all beseeched him he would consider it. Who knows how the mind of a mathematical genius works? Thus we must await for the suitable hardware that will make Mathematica physically portable in the sense that a calculator is portable. I suspect a high end tablet device with a small form factor designed by Apple (the PC company that has demonstrated the most commitment to innovation and integrity - here, here Mr Jobs!) running the excellent OSX OS and Mathematica would be the computing device that we could comfortably migrate to. Think of writing equations on the screen and manipulating OpenGL graphics! Let HP turn into some GE clone and totally ignore their products. Except for the paper for the HP Laserprinter of course...

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #31 Posted by Ernie Malaga on 8 Nov 2003, 1:20 a.m., in response to message #30 by harryb Quote: running the excellent OSX OS Excellent? Certainly not. After fiddling with OS X since its release, I got so sick of it that downgraded to 9.2.1. OS X (10.2.6) gave me nothing but trouble and was full of bugs. For example, I used to get the same file listed two or even three times in Finder windows. That and crashes and freezes (so much for protected memory and preemptive multitasking). Since I went back to OS 9, the problems have ALL gone away. "Excellent" is hardly the word I'd use to describe X. Not only is it bloatware, but it turns my 350 MHz G4 into a slug, crawling oh-so-slowly instead of flying. Really. -Ernie

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #32 Posted by harryb on 8 Nov 2003, 1:52 a.m., in response to message #31 by Ernie Malaga Without this morphing from nostalgic and sometimes hopeless rants on a once faultless company that made legendary products to a discussion on the merits of Apple's OS X, I must say that since OS X.2 and particularly X.3 the OS is excellent. And I say this with the experience of having been involved in virtually every aspect of PC/workstation use from Win 3 to XP, from Finder 4 to X.3 and from Irix 2.4 to 6.5. The OS is now very stable and very fast. Truly, the first incarnation of OS X was really a beta version and suitable only for hardcore enthusiasts (should not have been for sale). But since then it has matured beautifully and performs head and shoulders above all other OS's in performance, security and stability. My G4 workstation has not crashed for over 8 months (of daily use including testing all sorts of downloaded apps) and has never been virally infected (never had to use any anti-viral tools).

Mac OS X is trash Message #33 Posted by Ernie Malaga on 8 Nov 2003, 3:41 a.m., in response to message #32 by harryb Quote: I must say that since OS X.2 and particularly X.3 the OS is excellent Anyone can call anything "excellent," but that just doesn't make it so. OS X has gone the way of the bloatware. When installing it on a Mac, you are never given a choice as to which components you want to install -- it's either all or nothing (unlike versions <= 9). And since I have absolutely no use for iPhoto and iMovie and other iNonsense, I have to delete useful stuff from the disk only so I can update the OS that contains useless junk. Then I have to go through the installed products and delete those I don't need, and restore the good files I had to delete beforehand in order to make room. The problem of bloatware isn't particular to the Mac. It's a trend in which all software manufacturers participate. In fact, Microsoft was probably the first bloatware developer. Quote: And I say this with the experience of having been involved in virtually every aspect of PC/workstation use from Win 3 to XP, from Finder 4 to X.3 and from Irix 2.4 to 6.5. Most participants in this forum probably have similar qualifications, so I'm not impressed. Quote: But since then it has matured beautifully and performs head and shoulders above all other OS's in performance, security and stability. I call that wishful thinking. My personal experience is diametrally opposite. OS X performance is about 40% of OS 9. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have just downgraded from 10.2.6 to 9.2.1, and have noticed a _sharp_ increase in performance. As far as the so-called "stability", I wish I had jotted down the dates and times my Mac crashed under X. I'm positive it would make an impressively long list. Quote: My G4 workstation has not crashed for over 8 months (of daily use including testing all sorts of downloaded apps) and has never been virally infected (never had to use any anti-viral tools). Your claim has no merit unless you describe your system. Mine is a 350 MHz G4 with 256 MB RAM and it crashed under X almost every day. Since I went to 9.2.1 (about three weeks ago) it hasn't crashed even once. I must stand by my comments. -Ernie

OT: Mac OS X is trash Message #34 Posted by John Limpert on 8 Nov 2003, 4:13 p.m., in response to message #33 by Ernie Malaga Funny, my Mac running Mac OS X hasn't crashed for many months. It used to crash almost every day with Mac OS 9.X. It's a PowerMac G4 450 MHz DP with 768 MB of RAM. It crashed a few times with Mac OS X 10.0. Subsequent releases of Mac OS X have been rock solid. I like the installer. I want it to just shut up and install everything. You might check your system for bad RAM. One of Apple's faults is their refusal to support parity-checked or ECC RAM. A flakey DIMM can look like buggy software.

Mac OS X is _NOT_ trash Message #35 Posted by harryb on 8 Nov 2003, 5:55 p.m., in response to message #33 by Ernie Malaga Wow Ernie... I guess you must have had some bad experiences... With the Mac OS. Incidentally, have you considered using the option feature of the installer where you can choose which OS components are installed (from printer drivers to language support, from BSD subsystems to additional applications)? It's easy to miss I guess.. As for my experience, I only wanted to contextualise - not to impress. I do realize what type of person would have owned and loved a HP. And I do realize that I am in the company of some esteemed enthusiasts. However, I do USE these OS's daily for professional reasons and can comment with the confidence and conviction of someone who has had to deal with many frustrating crashes and who will not resort to the accomplished IT manager (who just prefers to reformat, reinstall OS and reload back-up) until many a post-midnight hour has passed. I have NEVER had to do this on an OS X machine. When I use the term "excellent" it is with no exaggeration, I assure you, it is with gratitude. The G4 that I'm speaking of is a 2 year old second generation 800Mhz with 1Gb RAM. In your records have you been able to note what was the cause most often in the crashes?

Re: Mac OS X is _NOT_ trash Message #36 Posted by Ernie Malaga on 9 Nov 2003, 1:29 a.m., in response to message #35 by harryb Quote: Wow Ernie... I guess you must have had some bad experiences... With the Mac OS. I guess you could say that. As far as I'm concerned, things started going downhill with System 7.6 which, IMHO, was the buggiest and least stable of them all. OS 8 was much better, but then it started slipping again. Quote: Incidentally, have you considered using the option feature of the installer where you can choose which OS components are installed (from printer drivers to language support, from BSD subsystems to additional applications)? It's easy to miss I guess.. It must be. I've never seen it, and I have installed OS X several times on the same machine during my attempts to fix the unstability problem. Quote: The G4 that I'm speaking of is a 2 year old second generation 800Mhz with 1Gb RAM. Both you and John have better CPUs than mine. I suppose OS X shouldn't be recommended on weakling Macs like mine, in spite of Apple's blessing of all G4s for OS X usage. Quote: In your records have you been able to note what was the cause most often in the crashes? There's no pattern, except that in all cases it was OS X in the background. I thought about the RAM chips possibility, but that wouldn't explain why now that I have 9.2.1 the crashes have stopped. It can't be a virus either -- I've reformatted the hard disk at least twice, reinstalling things after that. It would be better to stop this off-topic thread before the first ripe tomato hits us on the face. If you want to continue it in email, my address is "kajzero AT earthlink DOT net". -Ernie

Re: Mac OS X is _NOT_ trash Message #37 Posted by Mark Ordal on 9 Nov 2003, 3:22 p.m., in response to message #36 by Ernie Malaga I have to disagree with Ernie Malaga's comment: "I suppose OS X shouldn't be recommended on weakling Macs like mine, in spite of Apple's blessing of all G4s for OS X usage." I've been running OSX (10.0, 10.1, & 10.2.8) on a lowly Revision A iBook---the first generation iBook, with 300 MHz G3 and 288 M of memory. OSX works great! No crashes or lockups since the "second public beta" (aka 10.0). Note that I don't have the original hard drive in it: as soon as my one year warranty was up, I replaced the original 3.1 G drive with a 30 G Toshiba.

Re: Mac OS X is trash Message #38 Posted by David Ramsey on 9 Nov 2003, 1:49 p.m., in response to message #33 by Ernie Malaga Quote: Anyone can call anything "excellent," but that just doesn't make it so. OS X has gone the way of the bloatware. When installing it on a Mac, you are never given a choice as to which components you want to install -- it's either all or nothing (unlike versions <= 9). And since I have absolutely no use for iPhoto and iMovie and other iNonsense, I have to delete useful stuff from the disk only so I can update the OS that contains useless junk. Then I have to go through the installed products and delete those I don't need, and restore the good files I had to delete beforehand in order to make room. Actually, with the "Customize" button, you can indeed elect not to install large portions of the system-- although admittedly the iApps are not listed as options. The cumulative size of all the latest iApps (iDVD, iPhoto, iMovie, and iTunes-- is well under two gigabytes. A complete all-options OS X install _with_ the developer tools is < 5 gigabytes. Are you really so hard up for hard disk space that this is a significant issue? I confess I don't understand the nostalgic attachment people have to OS 9 and earlier versions. I've worked with Macs since the day they were introduced. OS X doesn't crash like OS 9. OS X doesn't lock up the whole computer while I hold a menu down. With OS X, I can actually use the computer to do something else while a long compile or download is going on (you could under OS 9, technically, but the response would be so sluggish I generally wouldn't bother). I can carp about things I don't like in OS X, either, but I'd never go back.

Re: Mac OS X is trash Message #39 Posted by Ernie Malaga on 9 Nov 2003, 10:04 p.m., in response to message #38 by David Ramsey Quote: I confess I don't understand the nostalgic attachment people have to OS 9 and earlier versions. I suppose it's for the same reason some people get nostalgic about an old neighborhood, an old car... or an old HP calculator. In my case, however, it's not nostalgia, but practicality. OS X gave me grief while OS 9 didn't. Just that. -Ernie

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #40 Posted by Frank Wales on 8 Nov 2003, 5:35 p.m., in response to message #30 by harryb Quote: If you desire the sort of timeless quality of product that the old HP had I suggest you look towards other companies like B&O, Rolex, etc. Although I agree with the thrust of your comments, I wouldn't have chosen Bang & Olufsen or Rolex as comparable to the HP quality of old. To me, they're both "lifestyle" brands that command a significant premium price for the quality of the product that you get, and neither represents the best in their respective markets, IMHO. They also seem to attract disdain from at least some quarters in a way that I never encountered for the classic HP machines. Quote: (I have never seen an economy Rolex) I believe they're called 'Tudor'. While I've found some companies that I think make pretty good products that offer lasting value (Eton shirts, Canon cameras, Leatherman knives), the only ones whose products gave me the HP-of-old feeling are Mercedes-Benz and Loewe. Oddly enough, both German companies. Unless I'm mistaken, Germany was HP's second-biggest market for calculators; probably just coincidence, though.

Re: It's all about RESPECT Message #41 Posted by Steven Kutoroff on 9 Nov 2003, 10:47 a.m., in response to message #30 by harryb I bought a Rolex in 1976 for over $1000. It needed $400 repair and cleaning 10 years later and 5 years ago it stopped working due to a problem with the crown. Estimate to repair and clean $585. Thank you very much, but the quality escapes me, but timelessness it has a plenty. However, the idea was to tell the time with a little style. Lots of style, not much time. On the topic of HP calculators, my HP-35 bought in 1973 still works, no repair, and has only need two new batteries over its life. Not bad.

Re: HP returning to making quality calculators (LONG) Message #42 Posted by Frank Travis on 7 Nov 2003, 3:57 p.m., in response to message #1 by harryb I have seen messages from other persons stating that they would pay 30% (or even more) to get the HP keyboard, etc. quality of old. I bought my first HP 48SX in July 1992 from the now defunct Educalc (no relation to current Educalc.net) from $274 and some cents. It lasted for nearly six years before it finally stopped working (one of the very few HP calculators I have purchased that ever went bad). But there was no problem with the keyboard. A couple of weeks before my HP 48SX died (in February on 1998) I purchased an HP 48GX from the now defunct Calculating Edge for about $200. It is still working fine to this day. When I found that some of the plug-in application cards (mainly Sparcom/DaVinci) designed for the HP 48SX did not totally work properly on the HP 48GX I tried to find out where I could get a working HP 48 SX. I purchased a working HP 48SX calculator for $100 from Don O'Rourke of International Calculator in Orlando, Florida website www.internationalcalculator.com I have since gotten two more working HP 48SX calculators (and copies of the old HP 48SX manuals, both two piece spiral bound and one-piece square shaped) from Ebay auctions, for a similar amount. A high school or college student can not afford the prices that a working professional (scientist, surveyor, computer programmer, engineer, etc.) can. HP might want to have reasonabley priced calculators for the education market and higher priced models for working professionals. I saw a message from a surveyor a few months ago that he could not wait to purchase an HP 49G+ when it became available. Dedicated surveying devices such as the Allegro, SMI Titan, and TDS Ranger are $2,000 and up. See websites www.smi.com and www.tdsway.com Some persons feel that general purpose use PDAs will replace calculators. To me PDAs will be the dominant handheld that is used. However, calculators will still have a niche market. Also, some PDAs cost up to $800. No calculator sold new in the last 25 years (including HP 41C/CV/CX, HP 28C and HP 28S--not calculators sold as collectors items/antiques) cost that much. HP needs to know what persons want in future HP calculators. I have been sending them e-mail which is being forwarded to their Product Development persons. To meet the automobile competition from Europe (mainly Germany) and Asia (mainly Japan), U.S. manufacturers GM, Ford, and Chrysler (now Daimler-Chrysler) increased product quality. HP can do the same. But HP needs feedback from a lot of calculator users.

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