HP Forum Archive 13

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Help!!! Message #1 Posted by BSCobb on 16 Sept 2003, 11:21 a.m. Help!!! I will be taking the Professional Engineer Exam in April 2004. We have recently been informed that calculators with either infrared communication or text capability will not be allowed. I am an electrical engineer, specializing in power systems, so I need to perform many calculations in polar, and flip them back to rectangular easily. In fact, I bought my 48G+ specifically because of the way in handles complex number calculations. Any ideas on a suitable replacement??? I just spoke to HP Technical Support and a 32SII replacement is due out this fall, but if it has IR it won't do me any good.

Re: Help!!! Message #2 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 16 Sept 2003, 12:24 p.m., in response to message #1 by BSCobb The HP-15C is the obvious and best choice. It's got no text capabilities nor any other feature which would ban it from exams, yet it has the most comprehensive, integrated, and allegedly better handling of complex numbers in any HP calculator bar none, via its unique complex, parallel, full RPN-stack. It's also got matrices (including linear systems of up to 7 equations, or complex systems up to 4 equations), hyperbolics, factorial and gamma, combinations, permutations, linear regression and statistics, numerical solve and integrate, etc, etc. If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate to get one ASAP. A decent working unit, somewhat cosmetically challenged, would be reasonably priced even in eBay. Best regards from V.

Hey Valentin...email me Message #3 Posted by Gene on 18 Sept 2003, 7:33 a.m., in response to message #2 by Valentin Albillo I believe you have my work email address...if not, the hotmail address above would work. Gene Wright

Done ! Did you get my e-mail ? [No text] Message #4 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 18 Sept 2003, 11:31 a.m., in response to message #3 by Gene .. Edited: 19 Sept 2003, 5:21 a.m.

Not yet Message #5 Posted by Gene on 19 Sept 2003, 7:57 a.m., in response to message #4 by Valentin Albillo Unless you sent in after I left work yesterday...or did you use the hotmail account?

Re: Help!!! Message #6 Posted by CME750 on 16 Sept 2003, 12:44 p.m., in response to message #1 by BSCobb The 32SII replacement is the 33S. Unofficial prerelease specs are available at http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49gplus.php and http://www.hpcalc.org/images/datasheet33s.pdf. Warning: you may want to put on eye protection before viewing this calculator; it's ugly. The 32SII didn't have IR, and it doesn't appear that the 33S will have it either. It is likely that the 33S will be deemed acceptable for the EIT/PE exams (but this depends on NCEES, so no guarantees). Suggested retail price = $66. The 32SII supports complex number operations, but not as elegantly as the HP48. Complex numbers are entered using two levels of the stack. Thus, the 4-level stack becomes a 2-level stack for use with complex numbers. Complex math is performed by hitting the "CMPLX" key before the operator. The 33S will likely be similar. The 32SII had good programming capabilities, but had very little memory (384 bytes). The 33S is supposed to have 32K of memory. It should be possible to streamline complex operations through programming. The 33S may turn out to be the most powerful calculator model that is acceptable for the EIT/PE exams under the new rules. Virtually all high-end "graphing" calculators from HP, TI, Casio or Sharp have text capability, and are presumably banned. There don't seem to be many keystroke-programmable scientific calculators on the market today; the 33S may have the market to itself. An alternative would be older discontinued HP models, such as the 42S or 15C, which had better support for complex numbers. These can be bought used, but they tend to be quite expensive. The 42S may not meet the NCEES criteria for text capability.

(deleted post) Message #7 Posted by deleted on 16 Sept 2003, 1:15 p.m., in response to message #1 by BSCobb This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted.

Re: Help!!! Message #8 Posted by Chan Tran on 16 Sept 2003, 1:27 p.m., in response to message #7 by deleted Can you ask them if you can use the 48 with the IR port tapped up?

Re: Help!!! Message #9 Posted by CME750 on 16 Sept 2003, 2:16 p.m., in response to message #8 by Chan Tran No good. Even graphing calcs with *no* IR port (like the TI83, TI89, or the original HP49) have been banned. NCEES doesn't want any calcs with "text editing" capability, which includes virtually all modern graphing calculators, including the HP48 and HP49. They claim that a skilled typist can rapidly copy the exam questions, even on non-QWERTY calculator keyboards. Some non-graphing calcs, like the HP32SII, HP41, HP42S, and forthcoming HP33S, have some primitive text handling features. But so far, NCEES doesn't seem to be concerned about such models. My PE plans (Civil) were also upset by the ban on the 48. As an alternative, I plan to use the 32SII. I may also get a 33S for backup and for programming certain functions. It's so ugly that I can't imagine using it as my primary calculator, but perhaps it's something you can get used to. An old 42S would be great, but they're too expensive. In the unlikely event that the 32SII and 33S are banned, then I will turn to my old 11C.

Re: Help!!! Message #10 Posted by Chan Tran on 16 Sept 2003, 2:32 p.m., in response to message #9 by CME750 May be some of us would offer a Rent-a-Calc service?

Re: Help!!! Message #11 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 16 Sept 2003, 9:34 p.m., in response to message #9 by CME750 the 32Sii has test editing? - I mean, it has alpha variable names, but... I haven't seen any real text entry of any form. If NCEES gets their panties wadded about single character varnames, i'll laugh.

Re: Help!!! Message #12 Posted by CME750 on 17 Sept 2003, 1:00 a.m., in response to message #11 by christof (NoVA US) Actually, the 32SII does have some ability to store text messages, if they are entered as an "equation". See p. 12-15 of the manual. But it obviously is not in the same league as a modern graphing calculator as far as text capability goes. NCEES apparently does not perceive the 32SII as a threat to exam security, because it is on their recently-posted list of "approved" calculators.

Re: Help!!! Message #13 Posted by Pierre Brial on 17 Sept 2003, 11:52 p.m., in response to message #12 by CME750 Is the NCEES list available online ? Cheers Pierre

Re: Help!!! Message #14 Posted by CME750 on 23 Sept 2003, 11:36 a.m., in response to message #13 by Pierre Brial NCEES has posted info about their calculator ban at: http://www.ncees.org/exams/calculators/8-27-2003_press_release.pdf http://www.ncees.org/exams/calculators/

Re: Help!!! Message #15 Posted by Tom on 17 Sept 2003, 11:09 a.m., in response to message #9 by CME750 I wish I still had MY old 11c.

Re: Help!!! Message #16 Posted by hugh on 16 Sept 2003, 7:33 p.m., in response to message #7 by deleted i agree with these recommendations. for me, i would use the 15c even if there werent any restrictions. however, a point of consideration is that both the 15c and the 42 (and indeed the 32sii) are not cheap to obtain. if you get any of these three, use it. a low-cost alternative is another make (eg casio fx-5500l). ok, its no hp, but then its not as bad as a 9g either. its complex support is weak, but you can evaulate expressions like "2i+sqrt(2+3i)/6" in a freeform way and see both parts onscreen at once. theres no text support.

Re: Help!!! Message #17 Posted by ned on 16 Sept 2003, 4:25 p.m., in response to message #1 by BSCobb the TI-73! no alpha, but does matrix math, with a downloadable software pack: http://education.ti.com/us/product/apps/73/matrices.html Download the guide book. It has a real equasion solver (not just a 'root solver' like the 83). Maybe the old gray model had matrix built in, dunno. As for polar-rec, this can probably be programmed in too. What a shame that only a calc meant for 10 year old kids is allowable. The higher models, 83 and up, might make it only because there is no easy way to type in 'notes' without some notepad software. Otherwise try a casio power graphic series. Again the alpha keys might be allowed, due to lack of notepad function. HP, yeah, the 15C... 49g would be perfect, if only. Let's see if HP makes it back into the education/testing market with the 33s! ha! they make a decent race vehicle tho. -ned

Re: Help!!! Message #18 Posted by Thibaut.be on 16 Sept 2003, 4:46 p.m., in response to message #17 by ned As Valentin quoted, I don't see any better calc than a 15C, that would comply with these rules. With a little more understanding from the examinators, I agree that the 42S would also be totally adequate (and ever more comfortable to use than a 15C) if they accept a IR-output only calc and that even if capable of alpha it has in no way any text editor.

Re: Help!!! Message #19 Posted by CME750 on 16 Sept 2003, 4:58 p.m., in response to message #17 by ned The high-end TIs won't make it. So far, NCEES has explicitly *banned* the TI83, TI89, TI92, and Voyage 2000. NCEES has not explicitly addressed other TI graphing calcs, or any Casio or Sharp graphing calcs. But all of these models have some degree of text-handling capability. Even if there is no built-in "notepad" function, it's probably possible to find a workaround, or even to just download appropriate notepad software from the Internet. It's been unofficially suggested, as a rule of thumb, that any calculator with an "Alpha Lock" mode for the keyboard is probably banned. The only purpose for Alpha Lock is to make it convenient to enter long strings of text. And that's precisely what NCEES doesn't want you to do. So what is the alternative? So far, NCEES has explicitly *approved* the TI30 series, the HP9 series, the HP32SII, and the HP33S. If you want programming capability, the HP33S looks like the way to go.

Re: Help!!! Message #20 Posted by BSCobb on 23 Sept 2003, 4:14 p.m., in response to message #1 by BSCobb Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions concerning a suitable replacement for my 48 G+ to use on the PE exam. I was shocked at how many people responed and how quickly. You have all given me and my co-workers some great advice. Thanks again!

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