HP Forum Archive 13

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New HP Calculator Message #1 Posted by Garry on 30 Aug 2003, 11:21 a.m. Looking to purchase new HP engineering, scientific, surveying,etc. calculator. With the current 48gx model being discontinued, do you recommend waiting for the new models or purchase the 48gx now?

Re: New HP Calculator Message #2 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 30 Aug 2003, 12:15 p.m., in response to message #1 by Garry Depends on your needs. If you're used to something like the Pioneer Series, including the HP-48, then you should get a GX while you can. If you don't mind rubber keys, less ergonomic keyboard layout, and eye-blinding color schemes, then you may want either the new 49G+, or the '48GII'. These both have some interesting features, namely the higher speed CPU, the bigger diplay (49G+ only) and the SD card slot (49G+ only...) In fact the '48GII' is more a relabelled 49G. I have to admit that the color schema of the '48GII' is MUCH better than that of the 49G/49G+. Raymond

Re: New HP Calculator Message #3 Posted by phreephly on 30 Aug 2003, 2:33 p.m., in response to message #2 by Raymond Del Tondo Actually, according to the messages on comp.sys.hp48, the keys on the 49G+ (and I assume the 48GII) are plastic and the seem more like the 48GX. Apparently a few folks have gotten their hands on these new calcs and are not under a NDA. Speed tests seem to indicate 3 times better performance than the 49G on average. Check out the newsgroup and thread "HP49G+ is on my hands!!" Now the question is how soon will it be available! Sam

JUST my thoughts, Raymond !! (no text) Message #4 Posted by R Lion (España) on 30 Aug 2003, 4:14 p.m., in response to message #2 by Raymond Del Tondo .

Re: New HP Calculator Message #5 Posted by Joseph on 30 Aug 2003, 10:13 p.m., in response to message #1 by Garry I think you'd have to be nuts not to wait for the new calculators... they seem to have overcome almost every complaint with the HP49G. You have (on the 49G+) Bigger Screen, 48G style plastic keys, SD card slot (128mb of memory or more), 3 times the speed (with the potential for even more) and IrDA and USB What's not to like?

Re: New HP Calculator Message #6 Posted by fwbrown on 31 Aug 2003, 10:18 a.m., in response to message #5 by Joseph Quote: What's not to like? The colors, the ugly face plate, the cursor keys, the tiny [ENTER] key in the wrong place...

Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #7 Posted by Gene on 31 Aug 2003, 4:10 p.m., in response to message #6 by fwbrown The colors are NOT that bad. I think it will look fine along side a 12c with its gold and black color scheme. I think you have just decided not to like the new machine. I think that's sad, because OTHER THAN the smaller out-of-place ENTER key, it looks like HP has addressed many/most of the user community's concerns. I call that progress. And, it's 3-5 times faster too. Stay with the older calculator if you must, but it looks like it will be great! Gene

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #8 Posted by Wayne Brown on 1 Sept 2003, 8:17 a.m., in response to message #7 by Gene Well, I never liked the 12C's color scheme either... and the [ENTER] key issue is enough by itself to keep me from buying a 49G+. I wouldn't buy any HP calculator without the double-size [ENTER] key. As far as making progress goes: HP has screwed up so often for so long that I no longer cut them any slack at all on new products. Either they get everything right, or I'm not interested.

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #9 Posted by Gene on 1 Sept 2003, 10:32 a.m., in response to message #8 by Wayne Brown I know that is how you feel, Wayne. You should probably just resign yourself to living in the past. Don't get me wrong, I too like the double-wide ENTER key, but I don't believe it will come back. If that means you never buy another HP calculator, oh well. The color scheme is a matter of preference or opinions, and I know you have strong ones. However, the majority of observers who see a picture of the 49G vs. the 49G+ like the 49G+ pictures better. And, the 49G+ will look great on MY desk next to my 12c, particularly since 12c calculators are EVERYWHERE within the financial community (normally a very conservative community at that) and no one minds the black and gold color. As I said, to each their own, but I believe HP has a winner on their hands with the new 49G+...particularly since they have solved so many of the user group complaints about the 49G with this new model.

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #10 Posted by Mark Hardman on 1 Sept 2003, 11:22 a.m., in response to message #9 by Gene Quote: I know that is how you feel, Wayne. You should probably just resign yourself to living in the past. Don't get me wrong, I too like the double-wide ENTER key, but I don't believe it will come back. If that means you never buy another HP calculator, oh well. I hate to disagree, but the new HP-19II+ will have the double wide "Input" key and, I assume, a supported RPN mode like the HP-19II. Mark Hardman

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #11 Posted by Gene on 1 Sept 2003, 2:08 p.m., in response to message #10 by Mark Hardman Quite right. Had forgotten about the pre-pics of the 19BII+ or whatever it will be called. I still don't believe a new scientific calc will be made with a double-wide key. The inconsistency seen with the new 19BII+ is something HP should be asked about of course. Thanks for pointing that out, Mark! :-)

HP and double width keys Message #12 Posted by Tom (UK) on 2 Sept 2003, 3:51 a.m., in response to message #11 by Gene There HAS been a recent HP scientific calc with a double width key! The calculator is the HP6(S). Before you shout 'foul' because it's not RPN (or actually an HP design) it DOES show that it IS possible to design a modern calculator with double width key that is economical and aceptable to the buying public. I accept it's not quite in the 'correct' place and is an '=' key rather than 'enter'. So it looks like HP just doesn't want to do this rather than there being a technical or marketing problem. Are they trying to create clear blue water between the new stuff and the RPN only past?

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #13 Posted by bill platt on 1 Sept 2003, 2:53 p.m., in response to message #10 by Mark Hardman I wonder if that "INPUT" key will be just as it says: input. THe equals key has "enter" labelled on it, so I am afraid that RPL enter will be down in the lower right corner, just as with the 49G+ etc. Regards, Bill

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #14 Posted by Mark Hardman on 1 Sept 2003, 3:23 p.m., in response to message #13 by bill platt In most situations on the HP-19BII, the INPUT and = (ENTER) keys are interchangable in RPN mode. Reference: http://www.finseth.com/~fin/hpdata/hp19bii.html Mark Hardman

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #15 Posted by dbrunell on 1 Sept 2003, 6:26 p.m., in response to message #10 by Mark Hardman Any idea what kind of battery door that 19bII+ will have?

being fair to the49G+, BUT Message #16 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 1 Sept 2003, 9:56 p.m., in response to message #9 by Gene Will HP be able to catch up? I was recently scouting a store while the college folk do their shopping- Casio has some really CHEAP and *Good* stuff out there- and TI has gone so far as to offer a real keyboard for the 83/89/etc. Think the 49G+ will make good use of that USB port? Graphing tablet? Keyboard? Sensors? I can't wait, but I'm a bit scared that Carly will shoot down anything that doesn't involve layoffs and personal salary increases at this point.

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #17 Posted by Wayne Brown on 2 Sept 2003, 11:20 a.m., in response to message #9 by Gene Quote: And, the 49G+ will look great on MY desk next to my 12c, particularly since 12c calculators are EVERYWHERE within the financial community (normally a very conservative community at that) and no one minds the black and gold color. I'm not really concerned one way or the other about the 12C, since I have no use for a financial calculator. At least it has the classic Voyager styling going for it, so it's a good-looking machine, although I still think the other Voyagers look better. I might be able to stand the 49G+'s color if it weren't for that stupid curved faceplate and the little round cursor buttons -- and, of course, the [ENTER] key, which as I said before is a deal-breaker for me. It's as much a matter of philosophical differences as of practicality. I still see no sign of remorse or hint of apology from HP for betraying their RPN tradition and those of us who rely on it. If I see signs of a return to the old attitude of "We're different because we're better and we don't want to look like our competition; if you like TI and Casio better, then we don't need you!" then perhaps I'll be willing to give them another chance.

Exclusiveness Message #18 Posted by R Lion on 2 Sept 2003, 1:55 p.m., in response to message #17 by Wayne Brown Quote: "We're different because we're better and we don't want to look like our competition; if you like TI and Casio better, then we don't need you!" Exclusiveness. That was the way. Some days ago somebody posted something about Harley-Davidson (perhaps it was in comp.sys.hp48) Other example? Why to make very expensive mechanical watches, when cheap Quartz Casio's are much more precise? Yes, Wayne, that was the way... Raul

Re: Exclusiveness Message #19 Posted by Wayne Brown on 3 Sept 2003, 7:48 a.m., in response to message #18 by R Lion That's right. What if Ferrari started making cars that look just like Toyotas or Chevrolets? I don't think many Ferrari fans would want one.

Hey- casio is great! Message #20 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 3 Sept 2003, 4:56 p.m., in response to message #18 by R Lion Casio makes a lot of watches, but they also have often been at the front of the market for introducing specialty electronics in wrist form. The best wrist PDAs, the only IR remote temperature recording, Intelligent Remotes, data Sync, sat. time sync, GPS- You may think of it as all toys, but I think Casio makes some of the best electronic watches there are. *grin*

Re: Hey- casio is great! Message #21 Posted by R Lion on 3 Sept 2003, 5:39 p.m., in response to message #20 by christof (NoVA US) I don't think Casio's are "toys". What I mean is that some brands like Rolex, Breitling, Omega, IWC, Zenith, etc, etc, etc, etc... are making increidible expensive MECHANICAL watches (less precise than the cheap quartz watches) only because some people prefer an "exclusive" watch in his wrist...Luxury. Those brands are not trying to get more customers neither in schools nor in supermarkets ;-)

OT: Special case Message #22 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 3 Sept 2003, 9:58 p.m., in response to message #21 by R Lion Hi, Rolex is a special case in your list. Other than the other brands, Rolex is a foundation, and thus more independent than the other companies. Moreover, Rolex is nearly the only brand in your list which develops *and* manufactures their own clockworks/calibers, whereas most of the others use ETA (NOT in the Spanish sense!) clock engines or alike. Don't get me wrong, ETA engines are very well, but the 31xx caliber(s) from Rolex are real hardcore, extremely durable, and nearly undestructable. One point which nearly no other clock engine can compare to is the 'Unruh-'bridge. Most automatic watches only have an 'Unruh-' arm. Sorry I don't have the word for 'Unruh' handy here. It's the heart of the watch, and swings back and forth with a spiral feather contracting and de-contracting... Regards, Raymond

Re: OT: Special case Message #23 Posted by R Lion on 4 Sept 2003, 1:57 a.m., in response to message #22 by Raymond Del Tondo Quote: Rolex is nearly the only brand in your list which develops *and* manufactures their own clockworks/calibers... I knew, Raymond. But the idea is that those watches brands are selling "luxury&exclusiveness" and they have their own "brand image". They are not triyng to get thousand of customers... BTW, I have not one of these master pieces. Mine is (a very good "Swiss Made") quartz Kronos. (With an ETA Cal 251.265) Ragards Raul Edited: 4 Sept 2003, 2:19 a.m.

OT: and what about the good german Sinn? ;-) (no text) Message #24 Posted by R Lion on 4 Sept 2003, 3:30 a.m., in response to message #22 by Raymond Del Tondo

Re: OT: and what about the good german Sinn? ;-) (no text) Message #25 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 5 Sept 2003, 6:29 a.m., in response to message #24 by R Lion Right, they had/have some special products. But don't forget A. Lange, and Glashütte/S.A., which are manufacturers of their own clock engines. Way too expensive for me, but very nice and even innovative. Regards, Raymond

Quality (was Re: Exclusiveness) Message #26 Posted by Frank Wales on 3 Sept 2003, 5:45 p.m., in response to message #18 by R Lion Quote: Why to make very expensive mechanical watches, when cheap Quartz Casio's are much more precise? I don't know where you get your expensive mechanical watches, but mine keeps better time than any of my quartz watches. Plus, mechanical watches' sweep second hands look much cooler than jumpy quartz ones.

Re:Quality Message #27 Posted by R Lion on 3 Sept 2003, 6:26 p.m., in response to message #26 by Frank Wales Quote: I don't know where you get your expensive mechanical watches, but mine keeps better time than any of my quartz watches I'm surprised. What bad quartz watches you have! Quoted from Breitling catalogue: Mechanical: 1 minute in a week Quartz: 1 second in a week Regards Raul

Re:Quality Message #28 Posted by Frank Wales on 4 Sept 2003, 9:36 p.m., in response to message #27 by R Lion Maybe Breitling should give Omega a call, then. :-)

Re:Quality... about watches Message #29 Posted by Julián Miranda (Spain) on 5 Sept 2003, 10:07 a.m., in response to message #27 by R Lion If Breitling says that I don't know what to think about my 25 years old mechanical Orient 1 minute in a month.

Re: Quality (was Re: Exclusiveness) Message #30 Posted by Thibaut.be on 5 Sept 2003, 12:54 p.m., in response to message #26 by Frank Wales I have worked for nearly 4 years in a famous watches group, and I've never heard that mechanical watches were more reliable than quartz watches. An expensive coaxial Omega is about 100 times less accurate than the cheapest Swatch. In addition mechanical watches are far more sensitive to their environment such as position, temperature, ... Only a few of them have a sufficiently accurate mechanism that enable them to be "CHRONOMETER" certified. Not to be confused with the Chronograph, that you use for cooking your morning eggs...

That is!! Message #31 Posted by R Lion on 5 Sept 2003, 3:32 p.m., in response to message #30 by Thibaut.be Perhaps the Breitling numbers are exaggerated, perhaps not but as Thibaut.be has said, it all depends on MANY things. Some people choose very carefully the position of the watch in the table for the night: so, the inaccuracy of the day can be compensated in the night. But mechanical watches ARE LESS accurate than quartz watches. Among many other things, a watch with an inaccurate of +6 seconds per day (3 minutes per month) can be oficialy certificated as Swiss Chronometer.(My quartz Kronos: 25 seconds in a year)... And talking about this, we are loosing the point... This was ONLY an example, so please, let's talk about calcs again. Neither about Harley-Davidson nor Breitling... Edited: 5 Sept 2003, 3:55 p.m.

Re: Quality (was Re: Exclusiveness) Message #32 Posted by Frank Wales on 7 Sept 2003, 6:56 a.m., in response to message #30 by Thibaut.be Note that I made no claims about mechanical watches versus quartz watches in general; I stated that my mechanical watch keeps better time than my quartz watches, and it does. I set the watch about once a month, at which point I find that it's drifted by about 15-30 seconds from the actual time (usually slow). Both the quartz watches I wear with any regularity drift by more than that in the same time. Of course, as I only have one data point, to me it's the average even if, to those reading the spec, it's highly untypical.

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #33 Posted by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 2 Sept 2003, 7:44 p.m., in response to message #17 by Wayne Brown I take the ENTER key in wrong position any day! Why? Because that's how it is possible to make the cursor keys to work in ALPHA mode, too! Very good when you are programming.

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #34 Posted by Wayne Brown on 3 Sept 2003, 7:44 a.m., in response to message #33 by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen If all that space hadn't been wasted around the cursor keys on the 49G+, there would be plenty of room for a larger [ENTER] key and still let the cursor keys work in ALPHA mode. Besides, I don't mind the way the cursor keys work on my 48GX because I rarely program on it, since I don't like RPL very much. When I want to program I reach for my 41CX.

Re: Not being fair to the 49G+ Message #35 Posted by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 3 Sept 2003, 12:32 p.m., in response to message #34 by Wayne Brown You're right, B. Wayne: Two more keys could be easily squeezed in leaving just enough room for a bigger ENTER and the [ / ] key would slide back where it belongs when the small ENTER is removed from the lower right corner, but noooo...not HP way anymore. So you're the only "old-school" (41-era) person not buying an ARM based super-49?

I DON'T want to be unfair to the 49G+... Message #36 Posted by R Lion (España) on 1 Sept 2003, 9:34 a.m., in response to message #7 by Gene ...and I think that this will be a great calculator. But I've preferred to buy a spare 48GX. Best regards Raul

Re: I DON'T want to be unfair to the 49G+... Message #37 Posted by Gene on 1 Sept 2003, 10:34 a.m., in response to message #36 by R Lion (España) No problem. :-) Just be sure to give the new 49G+ a try, because I know I will. I like what I see and I am encouraged for the first time in years with HP's responsiveness after the 49G problems.

SLIDE RULES! Message #38 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 3 Sept 2003, 5:04 p.m., in response to message #7 by Gene What is with all this newfangled handheld calculator stuff anyway? The only proper keypad for calculating is the kind on a desktop calculator - with real keys in the right place! And LCDs! and *alphanumerics*?? Calculators are supposed to have LED 7 segment displays and that's it. What is this calculator stuff, in fact? The machining on a fine slide rule can't be duplicated- and they never run out of power, and they don't even have keys! HP won't be on top of things until they drop all this electronics stuff and get back to real mathematical tools. (humor. yes, humor. I prefer a big enter key, too- but I won't say that that one thing alone will make me buy a TI)

Missing the point? Message #39 Posted by Tom (UK) on 1 Sept 2003, 8:28 a.m., in response to message #1 by Garry If you have used a HP48 or HP28 before then wait as the new hardware looks good (speed, display, memory) and OK (keyboard, battery use?). HOWEVER if you have not used a HP28 or HP48 then it all depends on the manual available for the new machines. The manual for the HP49G is very very poor and a newbie to the HP49G (even if they know how to use a keystroke RPN like the 32 or 42) won't be able to use more than 10% of it. I know because I tried and had to buy a HP48 in the end - the HP48's manual is very good and there is an advanced user manual too. HP's recent support in the way of manuals has been poor so don't be suprised if the new ones are bad. P.S. Has anyone seen the manuals that go with the HP48GII or HP49G+?

49G+ manuals Message #40 Posted by Gene on 1 Sept 2003, 10:37 a.m., in response to message #39 by Tom (UK) I think hpcalc.org has some sample pages. Rumors indicate a 180 or so page paper manual and a second advanced manual with around 750 pages. There is confusion as to whether this will be available from HP in printed form or just as an electronic copy. We'll have to wait and see. However, I'm encouraged by the attempt to put together a manual that size. That's an improvement! Some have so soured on HP that nothing will please them except the re-release of the HP-41c. From what I see, I believe that we are on the road back in the right direction.

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