HP Forum Archive 13

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OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #1 Posted by bill platt on 15 Aug 2003, 11:45 a.m. OK. We have a near conensus regarding what is wrong with the supposed new 33S. (We still don't know if it is even real.) Now, assuming someone from HP *might* be listening, then what is right?

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #2 Posted by Paul Brogger on 15 Aug 2003, 12:54 p.m., in response to message #1 by bill platt Here's my list: 1. New offering with some favorite H-P fundamentals: * native RPN (not RPL) with Enter, Roll Down and Swap keys, * multiple continuous-memory registers, and * storage register arithmetic 2. keystroke-programmable (again, not RPL) 3. plastic keys (presumably better than rubber -- someone was listening!) 4. 32K memory 5. two-line display 6. "4-arrow key" should give direct (unshifted) access to SST, BST and scrolling 7. built upon well-integrated and easy-to-use 32s/sii

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #3 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 15 Aug 2003, 2:20 p.m., in response to message #2 by Paul Brogger Absolutely! Paul's list is very good- there is one and only one thing I don't like about the 33s enoough to really care. And that's the keyboard. in *every* other respect, it seems to be the upgrade to the 32sii that I want*. Pop that puppy in the 10bii case ( kind of ugh, but it's workable) and I'll buy them. -Christof *(which doesn't make it an upgrade to the 42S! but that is a totally different issue.)

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #4 Posted by Les Bell [Sydney] on 16 Aug 2003, 1:00 a.m., in response to message #3 by christof (NoVA US) You know, I can compromise on the keyboard, if two conditions are true: 1. at least it's a decent RPN calc in the other ways described, and 2. the keyboard appeals to new (young?) users, and thereby actually *grows* the RPN community. If 2. holds true, then it's no bad thing. I'd prefer a more plain-vanilla keyboard, but I don't expect to get everything my own way. I'd just like to be able to buy some kind of RPN machine with a consistent interface for my kids to use in school, as opposed to the god-awful half-prefix/half-postfix Casio things they're stuck with now. Best, --- Les [http://www.lesbell.com.au]

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #5 Posted by Mark Hardman (Home of the maillot jaune) on 16 Aug 2003, 12:05 p.m., in response to message #4 by Les Bell [Sydney] Quote: 2. the keyboard appeals to new (young?) users, and thereby actually *grows* the RPN community. Last night my daughter had her boyfriend and three other members of the "nerd patrol" over to watch DVDs. Out of curiosity I showed them a side-by-side image of the HP-33s and the TI 34II with identifying marks backed out. I asked, "If both of these were on the shelf at BestBuy, which one would you choose?" All five teen-geeks emphatically picked the HP-33s. Comments were: "Very cool keyboard." "The silver one looks more modern." "Very, very krunck(??)" "Where can I get one?" "Is there more dip?" On the other hand, none were impressed with the HP-49g+. And a brief discussion of RPN vs. algebraic entry had them all glazed over and chanting "boring." Mark Hardman Edited: 16 Aug 2003, 12:08 p.m.

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #6 Posted by Victor Koechli on 17 Aug 2003, 4:16 p.m., in response to message #5 by Mark Hardman (Home of the maillot jaune) Well, that's as much proof as there can be, isn't it? I'd give up on this if I were you, guys... 'Krunck' phonetically sounds like german 'krank', which means 'sick'. Like Clockwork Orange, maybe, only borrowing german words instead of russian? So Burgess was wrong... Cheers, Victor

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #7 Posted by db (martinez, california) on 17 Aug 2003, 6:06 p.m., in response to message #6 by Victor Koechli "Burgess was wrong..." Maybe so, but lubbywubbing and synthemesc are still popular. The ultraviolent is taken care of by the government though. BTW: I plan to buy a 33 to throw in the glove compartment. I may even use it some. I will not program it extensively. No matter how good it may turn out to be; without mass storage capacity it is just a rat hole. After loosing 6k of programs on a 42 i am not impressed at all by 32k that is not backed up on something permanent.

32k (Long) Message #8 Posted by bill platt on 17 Aug 2003, 6:28 p.m., in response to message #7 by db (martinez, california) Hi db, There is a positive side to the 32k--but you have to see it from the other perspective. Currently, when using the 32sii, it is quite common to have written a whole bunch of tiny little programs, and equations, each of which is relatively trivial and simple on the fly stuff. Now, the crunch comes when you want to "solve" or "integrate" or do some other thing with the machine---and it runs out of memory. 384 bytes is easy to fill up by hand with off the cuff programs---but it is always a shame when you have to chip away half of them just to get "solve" to work. (This just happened to me today--wrote a simple program for figuring 2nd moments of areas---and had to clean out some stuff--and then discovered that I needed my 2nd 32sii to have enough memory for my handy beam formulas. All these formulas are trivial and easy to program in--and the "overhead" isn't really an issue because the good engineer is always re-familiarizing and confirming anyway---and further without writing paper documentation for 32sii programs, the operational I/O is so cryptic that you can never remember easily what something is, anyway. Now, why wasn't I using a spreadsheet? Ah, the great question--I DO use them--even on this job, but when you are designing a complicated structure, there is really no other good way in my opinion than having decent size scaled sketches, and a calculator and grid tablet, and you go through the structure and design it--very fluid, very hands on and tactile--very direct, but I am getting of topic......) So, the 32k will take care of this problem. What remains to be seen is whether or not they have worked through any addressing issues to make it possible to use all of that space---as we have seen, the 12CP is really stuck at 253? lines of programming--so I wonder if we will see a significant line number limitation (either documented or not) in the 33S. ---all assuming of course that it is not a HOAX! Regards, Bill Platt

yes bill, Message #9 Posted by db(martinez,california) on 17 Aug 2003, 10:02 p.m., in response to message #8 by bill platt I had thought of something like that; that one use for the otherwise uslessly huge memory would be if someone needed a lot of space for solving a big matrix. That is assuming, like you said, that there is a calculator and it is decently programmable.

Re: Did someone say "matrix"? Message #10 Posted by Paul Brogger on 18 Aug 2003, 2:02 p.m., in response to message #9 by db(martinez,california) Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but does anyone see any indication that the 33s has any matrix capability whatsoever? This ain't a 15c or 42s. I think we're talking 27 registers and 32K program space to mess with 'em.

there i go assuming again Message #11 Posted by db(martinez,california) on 18 Aug 2003, 10:57 p.m., in response to message #10 by Paul Brogger I was thinking you could both program it like an HP and move the curtain to change the default storage/program memory alocation. I was thinking this about a modern bottom of the line HP whose parameters were probably laid out by mba's. DOH! While i think the solve function is a cool idea, quick-dirty-simple and very impressive, it is not how i learned to program. The 42's version was great though.

Re: there i go assuming again Message #12 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 19 Aug 2003, 2:34 p.m., in response to message #11 by db(martinez,california) Well... Having used multiple stats lists (sum lists) and a few dozen little solver programs on the 17bii, I can say that the 32k could handily be used if the 33 has the ability to do useful things. Maybe matrices are out (and maybe they aren't- how long will it take one of our regulars to write a program for that?), but if the machine has enough useful program cappabilities, then 32k is more than I had ever asked for in a 32s upgrade. The biggest downfall I see with that much space is only having 27 variables. It's still a functionally *very* good upgrade to the 32sii (assuming the keyboard is usable in the end) to replace the 42, you simply do need I/O. or a backup module. something. I'm going on 10k of data in mine now. gettin kind of scary. At least I do printouts periodically. I keep hoping for a 42 replacement.

Nerd Patrol :-)) Message #13 Posted by Pierre Brial on 18 Aug 2003, 11:02 p.m., in response to message #5 by Mark Hardman (Home of the maillot jaune) Great experiment, Mark. HP probably do the same kind to design the keyboard. And I like the words "nerd patrol" I'll keep a copy of your post in my personnal hp archives. All the best Pierre Brial

Re: Nerd Patrol :-)) Message #14 Posted by Mark Hardman (Home of the last 5 maillots jaune) on 19 Aug 2003, 11:16 p.m., in response to message #13 by Pierre Brial For all our French participants out there, my Nerd Patrol could have been taken directly from the works of André Franquin: Mademoiselle Jeanne (My daughter) Gaston Lagaffe (Her Boy Friend) Jules-De-Chez-Smith-En-Face (The Prankster) Bertrand LaBevue (The Quiet One) http://www.gastonlagaffe.com/gaston/index.htm That boy better keep his hand off of my daughter. ROGNTUDJEU!!!!

Me and my 32sii, and insufficiency of it... Message #15 Posted by Tizedes Csaba on 17 Aug 2003, 7:22 a.m., in response to message #2 by Paul Brogger Hello! My first (usable) HP calc is an HP32SII (brown with blue-orange shifts). I buy it for my entrance examination. (And I'm a student now in a Hungarian university... ;) ) I use it to solve for many-many problems. I very like it, and if I want to use an fast calculator, I choose this machine. But some things, what I dont like in it: 1.) Equations not editable, only with [BackSpace] key 2.) SOLVE and INTEGRATE not works parralel (try to calculate an half axis of ellipse if the ellipse's half circumfence and another half axis is available... It's a really problem if you want to design plastic tunnels for vegetables. Or try to calculate inverse normal distribution...) 3.) SOLVE don't works with SOLVE, and INTEGRATE don't works with INTEGRATE 4.) Memory is too small 5.) Haven't got AND, OR, NOT and XOR commands 6.) No two character long (or one character+ a number) variable names (like on C=64 :) ), no BEEP, no IR (It's not a really problems...) 7.) And a REALLY problem: No METAL case, and no WATERPROOF case and keyboard. (And no shock resisitant, and not dust catchered,...) Its only a table-calculator, and not usable in industry... Csaba

Waterproof Message #16 Posted by Patrick on 17 Aug 2003, 1:42 p.m., in response to message #15 by Tizedes Csaba I have found some ziplock bags at Staples (office supply store) that are almost exactly the same size as a Pioneer. If you slip your calculator into one of those, it is still usable and pretty much protected from the elements. Of course, it still won't withstand the knocks and tumbles of an industrial environment, though. For that we need to have an inexpensive RPN machine so that replacing it isn't too much of a financial burden.

Re: Waterproof Message #17 Posted by bill platt on 17 Aug 2003, 2:35 p.m., in response to message #16 by Patrick You can also get really sturdy ziplock bags that are designed for protecting marine VHF walkie talkies. And, you can apply sticky-backed foamp padding to the case and sides of the calculator for protection....... regards, Bill

Re: OK, we know what's wrong..now, what's right Message #18 Posted by Erik Ehrling (Sweden) on 17 Aug 2003, 7:53 a.m., in response to message #1 by bill platt The best thing with the 33S is that HP is again producing a keystroke programmable RPN calc. This makes it much more likely that they will ever come up with a 43S (i.e. a HP-42S follow-up). Regards, Erik Ehrling (Sweden)

One thing is missing? Message #19 Posted by bill platt on 17 Aug 2003, 2:24 p.m., in response to message #1 by bill platt Well, we have some good posts here! Interesting post from Mark Hardman--I guess we really are a different species after we have been out of school for ten years! Something is missing on the 33S keyboard: Standard Deviation, and "R". Note that the "Probability" menu has been removed, the Cn,r and Pn, r are now where "MODES" and "DISP" used to be (+/- and "E" keys) but where did the SD and R go? They surely are not in the "modes" menu or the "solve" button, or the "display" buttons? Another thing: although the keyboard maintains most of what was already there on the 32sii, it does nothing but worsen the "consternation factor" regarding having menues sort of scattered about the keyboard willy-nilly. Valentin would surely second these comments--he is right about this menu scastering--I still get a bit befuddled using my 32sii menus--especially if I have not had to dive into one in a while..... But maybe this really is a hoax? I mean, how could they throw out hte Standard Deviation?! Regards, Bill Edited: 17 Aug 2003, 2:30 p.m.

Re: One thing is missing? Message #20 Posted by Tom Scott on 17 Aug 2003, 6:30 p.m., in response to message #19 by bill platt I think the standard deviation function is on the same key as on the 32SII (i.e., above the 1/x key). I would imagine that the "r" function is in the "LR" menu on the LN key. Tom Scott Lander, WY

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