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HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #1 Posted by Amazed on 30 Oct 2002, 11:40 p.m.

Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #2 Posted by gifron on 31 Oct 2002, 12:40 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Amazed

Has anyone else ever been confused? I am. joe_oil has already bought at least four 67's (w/o boxes), all at high prices (like most things he buys), but nowhere near this extreme. He has good feedback from multiple sellers who also have good, high feedback. The feedback looks legit, so the bids on those items look legit. What am I missing?


Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #3 Posted by Juan J on 31 Oct 2002, 9:35 a.m.,
in response to message #2 by gifron

A very seroius case of the collector's bug?

What you are missing...
Message #4 Posted by Mike on 31 Oct 2002, 2:33 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by gifron

You are definitely missing something... you are presuming that something about joe_oil is fishy. What if fishy to me is the winning bid.

Check that feedback. Only 2 bid miles apart from each other. It may well be that someone knows of joe_oil's bidding history and tried to run him up.

I wonder if the winning bidder will actually pay for the item?

Oh! And about the quantity of items being bought. I can name several supposed collectors on this site (no not me) that apparently only buy but turn around and sell under different names. They buy tons of HP items of the same model.

What happens now?
Message #5 Posted by Tom (UK) on 31 Oct 2002, 2:44 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Mike

If the seller says the top bidder won't buy and offers it to joe_oil, what should the price be??

If you take out all the bids by a defaulting bidder then the price payed could be about $5 above the highest 'other' bids. $160 in this case ($5 above tomd - NOT me by the way).

What do others think about the price when a seller contacts the second highest bidder in this way?

Should buyer's resist and re-bid if the item is relisted? Or do higher and higher prices mean 2nd bidders are tempted to buy things at what could be inflated prices?

(PS I'm using the above as an example - for all I know the highest bidder is OK and will pay the price they bid)

The price should be...
Message #6 Posted by Mike on 31 Oct 2002, 3:27 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Tom (UK)

2.5% higher than the previous high before joe_oil. I wouldn't pay more than $155 + 2.5%


But what would you sell it for?
Message #7 Posted by Todd G. on 1 Nov 2002, 6:09 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Mike

Perhaps, but what would you sell it for? There are a number of sellers on eBay who will turn around and sell the very same items they buy, frequently at incredibly high reserve prices. Despite their cries that they are not "dealers" and that they provide "added value" to the items they sell, in most instances, the price gouging is clearly evident after doing a little research. It's one thing when a bidder bids a large amount because he's voluntarily setting the price for himself. It's something entirely different when a seller REQUIRES a high bid to purchase an item.

My price would be...
Message #8 Posted by Mike on 2 Nov 2002, 11:08 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by Todd G.

You say "but what..." as if you already asked this question and it wasn't answered. This is the first time you asked...

But I'll answer

I would sell such a package at around $500. Since I have not seen the actual calculator, I can't be sure. The box is only so-so.

Great running & great cosmetic HP-67 alone can sell from $250 to $300. With a good box and all the packaging, $450 to $500. If the Application pack was sold seperately, it would sell for more. Reserve of $450, Buy-it-now of $500.

Let me ask you a question. Say, you had a 67 in great working and great cosmetics. What would you sell it for? I mean would you sell it for $100? Doubt it! You'll likely claim that you'd start it at $1 and let it go where it may. But I can say for a fact that you would be dissappointed if it only sold for $100 with everyone else getting much more (true value).

And let me ask you another question, since you believe that $1500 is too high. If you sold such a calculator and it went for $1500 (clearly too high in your mind), would you take that $1500? Why?

My auctions will never see those $1500 prices. I set prices based on my time, the fact they are fully tested, and/or any faults are disclosed and according to what they should sell for. Buy-it-now just provides a means to end an auction quickly.

And yes, I do "add value." When anyone buys from me they know for 100% certainty that nothing is hidden, the unit works (likely repaired since most actually don't work) and has been tested.

There are a lot of copy-cat sellers that are trying to leverage off of my auctions. Sometimes they use the same words. Many post an auction # of mine. But almost none of them actually add any value to the calculators. Many don't even know if their calculators work. They are simply hoping to capitalize off of my auction prices. They say "as is" or "untested" and it's basically a trust me risk that bidders take.

I have had a few vintage calculators fail many months after they were sold. I have repaired these for free. How many sellers would do that? How many sellers even know how?

I give calculators away to many people. I repair calculators and readers for other collectors, that have purchased from me. One past customer bought a 67 on eBay and had the seller ship it to me first to repair the reader. All at no charge.

There are many pitfalls in buying HP calculators on eBay. There are occasionally great buys, like the $14 HP-15C or the $25 HP-41CX. But when anyone buys from me, they know before they bid exactly what they will get and that is a 100% fully tested calculator.

I seem to remember once that I got a 27S manual on eBay and when you complained, I sent it to you for FREE.

Calculator buying tips

Message #9 Posted by Mike on 31 Oct 2002, 3:29 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Tom (UK)

I meant the next highest bid increment over $155. Not sure if that is 2.5% or $5.00 as someone pointed out but it certainly is not the obvious $1500. That is the only way you can avoid shill bidding.

HP-67 for $1500
Message #10 Posted by joe_oil on 31 Oct 2002, 7:38 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Mike

Interesting thread. I must admit that $1500 for an HP-67 might appear ridiculous.

I was prepared to buy that HP-67 at or below my last bid. However, Thelxiepia seemed intent on winning the bid with no regard for cost (what I call a dangerous bidder as I myself have sometimes been).

For the record, I think Thelxiepia's bids were legitimate, and I do not expect to be contacted by the seller.

If, though, Thelxiepia was simply playing a game with bids that were not viable, then my counter bids would also be deemed not viable. Hence, I would not expect to offer more than the bid made before Thelxiepa's first counter bid.

Re: HP-67 for $1500
Message #11 Posted by db(martinez,california) on 31 Oct 2002, 11:36 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by joe_oil

joe oil;

i have a question for you because someone said that you have bought several of one model of hp. i hope you take it as a question. i am not baiting you and i want to read your answer.

why would you want more than one of any model?

i'll tell you my take on it first, since i am writing this now and it's easy to just continue. it seems avaricious and totally incomprehensible to me to want to have more than one example of any hp that you do not use for work (so you want a spare) or that you like to program extensively (so you might have two versions running to compare). it is your money that you are imho overspending, and you are not doing anything really detestable like buying up a load of the last 42's and selling them for a profit so it is your right. you may also be sifting through a lot of calcs to find one that you really love and are selling the off the seconds. i do believe however that if people are hoarding, it robs some of the rest of us of the chance of owning and using some of these rare and beautiful "works of art" - and that in running up the accepted price (the one you pay and then sell for) you have done a disservice to other people with your same interests.

all that is just my opinion and partly because i enjoy finding old rpns at flea markets and junk stores or trading for them almost as much as using them - except for the 41, which sits next ot my heart (literally) and gets used a bunch of times each day.

anyway, i hope that you don't take this like i'm bashing you. i don't mean to be. after all we do have an appreciation of great technology in common.

looking forward to your answer. - d

Can I borrow your words?
Message #12 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 1 Nov 2002, 12:19 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by db(martinez,california)

Hello, D.B. Good reading from you.

I thought no one else could see these facts as you mention. I'll wait for, say, four-five years from now to go "hunting" Hewlett-Packard calculators again, for a fair price. In fact, I believe it won't take such a long time, maybe three-four years, so we, who really understand what's the meaning of "works of art" applied to HP calculators, will have our (fair) chance to access them not for profit, but for our own daily use. Until then, these wannabuy people (just those whose interst fit in, please; no general addressing!) will realize the calculators they have bought are valuable as tools, not toys. There is no meaning on "showing" them as relics because they are not, they are state-of-the-art, top technology tools, not fancy toys to be exposed. Those who know about it will not like to see them instead of using, program-ming them. Those who do not know "what are these strange remote controls for" will keep the small talking and tasting their drinks.

Time will tell.

(Comments? Flames? Blames?)

Re: Can I borrow your words?
Message #13 Posted by glynn on 1 Nov 2002, 3:45 a.m.,
in response to message #12 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)


I did not, really, want to jump into one of these "ebay craziness" threads again (having got my fill some months ago). I am, as db is, and as Luiz is, a "user" more than a "collector". It may, therefore, be hard for me to comprehend the motives and actions of someone who sees A DIFFERENT VALUE than I do in an item, like a HP-67.

But there is no doubt in my mind anymore that collectors see through a different pair of spectacles than I do; it is not up to me to judge their motivations, though in some instances their actions seem to be counter to my sensibilities.

Will collectors "spoil" my options as a user? Well, maybe; perhaps they already have put some things out of my reach, or, more accurately, out of what MY OWN VALUE JUDGEMENT tells me is a reasonable reach. I always wanted a 16c; but I look at current auction prices and say, "no way"-- when many who only want it to "complete their series" DO find the prices within their budget. They see some value I don't, or are more interested in fulfilling their quest than I am in fulfilling mine. "To each his own."

As far as a 67 for $1500-- yes, to me, that seems nutty; but then, perhaps, a few years from now, I will watch my collector-type friends here gloat at such bargains and marvel at ebay auctions where one goes for $3000 or more. Then I may kick myself for not having had the foresight to "stock up"-- or at least consider the idea that, in addition to being a cool "tool" to use today, it may be one of those few cases where a piece of technology is actually an investment, capable of paying off monetarily at some future date.

As someone who helped "dumpsterize" an Imsai in the early eighties (arggh), I fully acknowledge that the very things we de-value in the present are often prized in a collector's context. How many of us users threw away the boxes our calcs came in and marked up our user's manuals with highlighters and pen? (bad, naughty user!) Now, here we are, a decade or so later, and we sit on the sidelines as collectors wave their wallets at us, begging us for what we thought was a waste of space.

I gotta tell you, the story of my 9100a. I found it at a surplus store in 1986, got it for $35. I had no idea WHAT it was, or could do-- and didn't care. What I really wanted at the time was a big aluminum case, for a project I was intent on building. It looked like something I could GUT, drill and cut to fit MY needs. So I bought it. When I got it home, just for a lark, I plugged it in and turned it on. The display faded on, and I was intrigued, not only that the display was a vectorized CRT, but that the dang thing STILL had a set of numbers from its last owner's last calculations-- core memory being non-volatile, there they were. So I played with that, put the 9100a aside in the thought that I might not tear it up just YET... and forgot completely about it until cleaning my closet before a move about four years ago. So I have what now seems to be "a collectible". And, now, I want to treat it as such. Dumb luck, it was-- but for now, I'm giving it a good home, and if I stumbled onto a 9101 (added memory box) or the port multiplexer for, say, a couple of hundred or so, I would not blink twice at "adding to my investment".

So-- user, collector; whatever each of us fits, it is because of the WAY we see what we have (and/or want to have) that determines what we consider sensible and reasonable. And I'd figure that there really are more than just those categories to factor in. The collector of only mag-card models may not understand why an HP-25 has anybody paying over $50 for it. Or a collector who wants One of Each may shake his head that some collector is buying all the 67's that come up, and paying way over what HE would. But most of the REST of the world, meanwhile, is wondering what ANY of us are doing, anyway!!!

I have to say, though, to Joe_Oil and whomever else: it is NOT my understanding that if a bidder outbids you and does not honor HIS commitment, that lets you out of yours. ANY bid YOU make, you make willingly and accept the terms of that bid.

I myself once made a bid on ebay "out of spite" against another agressive bidder... and now am the owner of a fairly expensive network analyzer (um, I don't have a network)... but I made the bid and so it fell to me. If auction participants are allowed to act in bad faith, then ANY auction becomes merely a first gambit in a play upon the seller's patience; a "gypsies bazaar" of counter-offering rather than an auction where the highest price wins. If someone defaults on their high bid, the seller should reserve the right to hold another auction, OR to sell to the next bidder in line, leaving appropriate feedback to ALL who won't honor the commitment they made.

If *I* were holding an auction, and two misfits ran it to the sky and then each defaulted, I would feel they had wronged me-- wasting my time and driving away potential interest in my item. Ebay makes it clear that a bid is serious business-- so if you AREN'T as serious as you make out with a bid in MY auction, expect me to try to get you kicked off ebay. I won't be interested in your argument that you should only pay x or x+5. I'll hold my NEXT auction without your golden advice, and without your bogus participation.

Anyway, in an ideal USERS world, there would be enough HP-67s for each of us. For collectors, that would constitute horror. But users like me are only at the mercy of the collectors whims to the degree that neither HP nor any other manufacturer has been willing or able to supply my needs as a calc user in 2002ad. If HP were still selling what I want to have, I wouldn't be caring what collectors do with the "old stuff"!!!!

Message #14 Posted by Mike on 1 Nov 2002, 9:09 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

In 3 or 4 years, they will be costing twice as much. There is a finite number of calculators. Most that are selling now will not be available in 3 or 4 years.

However, by that time there will be millions of more buyers. Supply and demand. The supply is fixed. Probably less than 1% of the population that knows about (or will want) HP use eBay.

Re: Not!
Message #15 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 1 Nov 2002, 11:34 p.m.,
in response to message #14 by Mike

Hi, Mike

my question still remains, with another approach: will HP calculators prevail as collectible pieces in three-four years? Let's get back 18 months only and check for their prices, availability and demand. Have they been offered in the same way they've been now at E-bay, say, 18 months ago?

I think many things will happen from now on, mostly if HP keeps producing (designing?) calculators. Anyway, I am convinced that users, the ones who know what Hewlett-Packard calculators are for, are the ones that can cease this "fever". I am not completely sure about it, but I would like to know what sort of electronic equipment (from HP or any other brand), other than calculators, that have been produced in such a large number of units or types. Say: oscilloscopes, multimeters, analyzers... TV sets and any domestics are off question, as PC's too; no way to beat them. Anyway, there is an expressive group of users that will claim that HP calculators of any time are valuable. Simply valuable.

What if us, calculators users, decide not to search for them? Who else will "understand" their value? Collectors only? I don't think so. Or, maybe, I'm completely wrong.

No one will offer hundreds of dollars to buy an 8088-based PC-XT today. Maybe in 20-25 years from now, as a relic (I keep at home, as tech reference, two working XT MB's, a power supply, an original green CGA.... My shrink is a lot concerned about it.). And that's simply because there is no one interested on lighting one of this dinos up to see what can be done with it. Unless there is another group of people I do not know about, offering hundreds of dollars for them...

I believe vacuum-tube radios are another sort of expensive and rare collectibles in USA (world wide?). I am an electrical engineer and I worked as a technician for the time I was at the university. I repaired a few of these boxes, but I was never called to collect them. And I saw many old vacuum-tube radios at that time.

And there are many collectible items around the world.

About PC's: there are PC users world wide, and I am not sure if collecting computers is of any interest. About vacuum-tube radios: AFAIK, only technicians or declared radio lovers collect them. If collectors expose their radios, history will be exposed there, too. (when was the first vacuum-tube radio produced and commercialized? I do not know.)

What about Hewlett-Packard calculators, produced since 1968? Despite being wonderful, powerful, easy-to-use computing tools at the time they were delivered, and also some of the most trustable, all-terrain, top-tech calculators available, what else is interesting about them that other people that are "not in the business" will see in them? At least, interesting enough to turn them into collectibles?

If there is nothing else that's interesting about them, than users are the ones who pulled them out of their boxes and showed them to the world... as profitable collectibles.


Depend on collectibility
Message #16 Posted by Mike on 2 Nov 2002, 11:14 a.m.,
in response to message #15 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

You say: No one will offer hundreds of dollars to buy an 8088-based PC-XT today

That is because that XT has not reached collector status yet. I have seen many similar computers sell for hundreds of dollars, depending on the brand and model.

I have sold restored 8080 machines for $2000.00. So, vintage computers do sell well and are very collectible. An Altair recently sold for $5000.00 on eBay.

Go out and try to buy an Apple Lisa or a Dec PDP-8 and tell me about old computers not going for high prices.

Re: Depend on collectibility
Message #17 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 2 Nov 2002, 12:53 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Mike

That's it! We're almost in the same understanding of facts.

When was the XT launched? 20 years ago? A bit more? I don't remember, really. And it did not reach collectibility status yet. And it is no longer under production. But in three-four years, the HP calculators that have just gone off-production will reach collectibility status, as you have already mentioned, right?


Get the point now?

Emotional not Collectible
Message #18 Posted by Mike on 2 Nov 2002, 4:17 p.m.,
in response to message #17 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

The HPs that have just gone out of production are not really rare at all. There is just a emotional reaction to HP going out of business of calculators.

There were millions of 32sii made, for instance, there is a temporary spike but it will quiet down. Think about it, why should a 32sii cost more than a 27S or 42S? It shouldn't!

HPs will always be collectible but the high prices that we are seeing right now are not because of rarity; just emotional reaction.

In 3 or 4 years, HP calculators will still be collectible, spikes will smooth out, and prices will stabalize. I suspect what we might see are poorer quality items because the better ones will be taken out of the market. But the higher quality ones will still command high prices.

Re: Emotional not Collectible
Message #19 Posted by Ren on 6 Nov 2002, 6:57 p.m.,
in response to message #18 by Mike

Mike wrote:

There were millions of 32sii made, for instance, there is a temporary spike but it will quiet down. Think about it, why should a 32sii cost more than a 27S or 42S? It shouldn't!

I write: But rarity alone does not determine if an item will be a "collectable" in the future. Think about Captain Midnight decoder rings, probably millions of those were made and were loved and lost or thrown out by the kids that had them. Or the original Barbie doll, lots of those made too, now very collectable. If there are millions of students using 32SII's using and abusing and losing their calculators (remember they aren't built as strong as the old calcs) in ten years many of them may want to restock or "return to the Good Old Days" and then the value of the remaining "cheap" 32SII's will soar. Will they cost more than the 42S or 27S? Maybe, as they may value it as much as others value the others. So, commonality is a factor of "collectability" If they ever stop making "Bic Stick" pens, (egads! maybe they've already stopped!) Those in mint condition will be "worth" more than the 19 cent original price...

Ren dona nobis pacem

Re: Depend on collectibility
Message #20 Posted by David Smith on 2 Nov 2002, 4:42 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Mike

I have an IBM AT, serial number 000020. Bought it the day it came out for $3200. I have been offered quite a bit more than that for it... and I still have it. I suspect if you had an original PC or XT with a similar serial number the right person would pay a bundle for it.

Re: Depend on collectibility
Message #21 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 2 Nov 2002, 5:12 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by David Smith


can we call it an Isolated Case? If a 0000x0 (better yet, a 00000x) serial # of some off-production item is shown, it would value a lot more than any xyztla serial #, right? I'd keep it too, for sure.

Anyway, do you "use" it as often? Switch it on, run something to show if it is fine and turn it off again sometimes, right? It's a collectible item... not a tool for itself.


Re: Depend on collectibility
Message #22 Posted by David Smith on 2 Nov 2002, 7:15 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Yes, it actually does get used. It controls a piece of hardware that will not work with modern (i.e. faster than 25Mhz) machines.

This is, indeed, something to be mentioned!
Message #23 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 2 Nov 2002, 7:52 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by David Smith


I had a situation like this in my former job: a supervising system (data acquisition board) that would run only in an 8MHz system (clock dependant): only a PC-XT would "fit" in. At the time the system was designed,, this was a good time reference.

About the same situation: think of an 82143A, that basically can only be controlled by an HP41.

What else to say? I understand what you mean.

Re: HP-67 for $1500
Message #24 Posted by joe_oil on 2 Nov 2002, 12:17 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by db(martinez,california)


May I answer your question with a few questions?

How many ties do you own?

How many telephones or TVs, stereos or radios are in your house?

How many cas do you own?

How many girlfriends do you have?

How many different bottles of wine do you store?

How many pairs of glasses do you own?

Bla Bla Bla Bla.......

I like HP equipment, and I excersize my privelege of fairly bidding for these items. I enjoy the way they smell. I enjoy programming them. Quite simply, I love old HP equipment, and I am building an extensive collection of fully functional units.

Why? Because I can.

"Because I can"
Message #25 Posted by Anonymous on 2 Nov 2002, 7:49 a.m.,
in response to message #24 by joe_oil

I cannot say I would never do the same if I could. Honestly, if I have enough money to spend with something I like, I'd try to buy as many items as I could, so I could keep them running anytime I want to.

At least, I'd do that as far as it's not so boring, because I'd have everything I want, at anytime I want, in any circumstances, at any cost. No difficulties at all! Just buying and holding.

But that's none of anybody's business, right?

And that's as it is just because I can.

Re: "Because I can" (off topic...)
Message #26 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 2 Nov 2002, 7:52 a.m.,
in response to message #25 by Anonymous

This is getting even better.

What is this all about, please?

Shills, thrills and spills
Message #27 Posted by glynn on 1 Nov 2002, 7:13 a.m.,
in response to message #9 by Mike


While I understand the logic, I don't really agree with the remedy proposed.

If a seller has someone colluding with him to run up the price, am I any less stupid for following him up that ramp?

Mostly, when asked about when to bid (early or late), whether or not to use "bots", and in response to grouses about "snipers stealing an item away from me", you correctly state that the HIGH bid gets the item: you bid what you sincerely are willing to pay. If that is more than enough, the item is yours; if not, better luck next time.

But it IS possible that the seller is using a "shill". There are two potential uses for that shill. One is to run up the price to flush out a pigeon... perhaps someone like me, who must have that item even at a price I might have balked at initially, in the absence of aggressive competition. The other use for a shill is to run up the price beyond anyone else, ending the auction "successfully", thereby setting a price precedent for some future auction or to hype up the market in general for that and/or related items.

If a bidder is finding he is in higher cotton than he sincerely desires to pay, the LAST thing he should do is act upon his competitive instinct (this advice from a reformed ebay "angry young man"). He should instead realize that NEARLY ANYTHING on eBay once will be followed by another soon enough, and Fate is telling him to sit this one out. Then he should do his research and assure himself that he is realistic about his price target and can beat 99.9% of the competition to get what he wants. If he is sure that no shilling is involved and that the auction actually constitutes a new price target, then he may be willing to bid that high. So be it. But he should NEVER bid something that he, in good faith, is not full willing to pay.

Now if I bid on something and come in #2, and the seller says, hey Glynn, the high bidder defaulted, would you like it at your high bid? I shall say, oh yes-- provided that you FIRST post a negative feedback on bidder #1, and copy (cc) me on a note to eBay about the defaulter. Anything LESS than that is to be regarded as an "off-eBay" solicitation, don't you agree?

Now if I bid on something and come in #2, and the seller says, "auction completed", I have no reason to believe that a shill was used... but if I have used SENSE in establishing MY price, the shiller raised that price by no more than one bid increment, therefore did not accomplish a precedent as he might have hoped.

If I bid on something and come in #3, and the two high-flying birds above me raised the price substantially, I STILL have no proof that a shill was involved. I therefore have to decide whether the auctions end was a "fluke", perhaps driven by newbies with little sense. If I doubt the SELLER's integrity IN THE LEAST, I should be filled with a sense of relief at not having to deal with HIM. Another auction and an honest non-shilling dealer is my best remedy.

Maybe my buddies, however, get caught in the giddy fever of advancing prices and allow precedents to be set. "The last few of these sold on eBay for $XXX" say the next auctions. Well, IF they get that for their items, so be it-- it's the market of fools at work. But chances are better than average that the bubble will work itself out; sellers won't get what they expected out of their auctions, and the averages will come back down to a level supportable by the market for REAL; and sooner or later, those holding bogus shilled auctions have to REALLY sell their items at the peak of the speculative boom, or they wasted their "education" efforts towards their prospects. In the meantime, buyers should look askance at a seller offering two or more of the same item within a few months of each other in an inflated market. As a bidder, asking questions of the seller is worthwhile, including the serial number of the item you are bidding on.

Finally, if you see what APPEARS to be shilling by a seller and his buddy, you COULD ask eBay to investigate. Maybe a look by eBay security at the established facts of two individuals will result in a nulled auction, or maybe they will feel the heat and drop their ploy.

Anyway, if shilling is driving ANYONE to insane heights, it is, in the main, the responsibility of the sincere bidder to take a grip on himself, not be led to that insanity.

We in MoHPC should be looking out for bad auctions and NOT letting them set us up for future slaughter. To act, however, as if nothing is wrong when a high bidder defaults, as long as we get the item at some percentage above the last "reasonable" bid, is to let the unscrupulous seller off the hook, encourage people to "chase" the shill, and ultimately allow our emotional involvement in one particular auction get the better of our common sense. We DO need to combat shilling. The best way I can think of is to refuse to be that "pigeon", report strange anomalies to those in authority, be an informed and patient buyer, and ask the seller to give us the information we need to be informed, serious buyers.

As a seller, one should take pains to answer our questions in the auction copy, including serial #s, have original pictures, and not allow frivolity, stating in your rules that, in the case of a default, you will handle the dispensation of your item this way (i.e., another auction, going to 2nd bidder, etc.) A jerk defaulting-buyer should be treated as scum and the feedback should be mercilessly applied.

Anyone approaching you the seller with a whiny "but the price should be set back to..." should be aware that you, too, can be the victim of a scam-- where an auction is made murky by an alter-ego or two of low feedback and poor traceability-- and the seller is then asked to honor a price set in a time when the dynamic duo were scaring off all other competition.

Remember, if I want to pay $20 more than anybody else prior to the work of some misfit(s), but they've already begun their work, I can't even offer my bid-- why, it's "too low"... so when one later says, well, the devil (his buddy) made him do it, so the price OUGHTA be, hehheh, well, you get the picture.

So, anyway, that's just my advice. Y'all, be cautious, try not to get caught up in fever. And for goodness sake, do NOT EVER bid what you can't justify later, when your fever subsides!!!


What Arrogance
Message #28 Posted by Mike on 1 Nov 2002, 9:12 p.m.,
in response to message #27 by glynn

What arrogance! Why does stupidity have anything to do with this. Are you calling Joe stupid?

What I said was that some people know of joe's buying habits. That does not make him stupid, as you like to allude.

Re: Shills, thrills and spills
Message #29 Posted by joe_oil on 2 Nov 2002, 12:03 a.m.,
in response to message #27 by glynn

I believe you would argue for hours over the number of angels that dance on the head of a pen. No disrespect intended, but a moot bid is a moot bid.

If an item has ben bid up by someone who has no intention of honoring that bid, then how is the second-in-line bidder to know that he/she has not been duped?

The only fair and honest solution is to void all bids from the time the invalid bidding began, and to start the process over (after having banned the liar from participatin in EBay).

I believe you have not properly analyzed this situation.

Pure as the driven snow :^)
Message #30 Posted by gifron on 1 Nov 2002, 12:56 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Mike

Is there anyone here who has only bought, and never sold?

I definitely have bought more than I've sold, but like most collectors (of anything), I have to pay for my hobbies by some means. Selling my duplicates has helped in the past. That given, I would much rather sell for a high price than for a low one. And no, I would not trade a duplicate 10C for a needed 12C, just to complete my collection, or to do finance calculations more efficiently.

There probably are a few pure snowmen, who have never sold a single HP out of their collections. Nevertheless, you can be a collector, and still do some horse tradin.'


Message #31 Posted by Mike on 1 Nov 2002, 9:31 p.m.,
in response to message #30 by gifron

Doubtful, but I imagine there are a few.

There are more that whine about the high prices but then when they sell, sell at high prices too. Very hypocritical.

There is one person that has over 1000 transactions, apparently all purchases. But several of us have found that he is likely selling under a different name, at high prices.

Re: Doubtful
Message #32 Posted by Marc on 2 Nov 2002, 8:14 a.m.,
in response to message #31 by Mike

and that seller would be cjd55? Right?

Buyer & Seller
Message #33 Posted by Max on 2 Nov 2002, 9:59 a.m.,
in response to message #32 by Marc

and that seller would be cjd55? Right?

So Tom and Cindy are close relatives?
Now I understand...

Thanks for the hint!

Re: Doubtful
Message #34 Posted by David Smith on 2 Nov 2002, 4:52 p.m.,
in response to message #31 by Mike

Not to mention people that send you nasty emails and complain bitterly if you happen to snipe them. Then they turn around and place bids on everything that you have open bids on whenever you outbid them. Bozo behavior like that is what turned me on to sniping in the first place.

Re: Doubtful
Message #35 Posted by Don Davis on 2 Nov 2002, 8:02 p.m.,
in response to message #34 by David Smith

Sorry to be ignorant, but . . . what is "sniping?"

Re: Doubtful
Message #36 Posted by Mike Sebastian (Texas) on 3 Nov 2002, 11:22 a.m.,
in response to message #35 by Don Davis

"Sniping" is the placing of an eBay bid in the last few seconds before the auction closes, and thereby increasing the probability of winning the auction. The morality of sniping has been a stridently debated topic in the past on this forum.

Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #37 Posted by Emmanuel, France on 1 Nov 2002, 8:22 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Amazed

Oh, God! I have three of those HP-67s, each w/ user's manuals, QRG, original Standard Pac and Adapter. <p> OK, special promotion for the guy who wants to buy them. The set for USD 3,000.00 instead of USD 4,575.00 (1,525.00 x 3). <p> Good price, discount price for everybody!

Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #38 Posted by Emmanuel, France on 1 Nov 2002, 8:27 a.m.,
in response to message #37 by Emmanuel, France

It was a joke! Of course ...

Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #39 Posted by David Smith on 1 Nov 2002, 6:08 p.m.,
in response to message #37 by Emmanuel, France

Oh, but you didn't mention that lovely brown box. In my opinion the boxes are worth more than their contents. For every boxed machine you see mayby 50 machines without boxes. The box means nothing to a user or semi-collector, but for the die hards, a machine is naked without it.

Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #40 Posted by Emmanuel, France on 1 Nov 2002, 6:33 p.m.,
in response to message #39 by David Smith

Yes, I did not mentionned it. I have somewhere two boxes with mark 'Service Technique HP-France'. I can understand people who want something absolutely. I know that. I bought a special HP-41 Blanknut Option 001 for $175:

Re: HP-67 for $1500?!
Message #41 Posted by Emmanuel, France on 1 Nov 2002, 6:36 p.m.,
in response to message #39 by David Smith

And I was joking. Of course ...

Repairs for 42S
Message #42 Posted by Randy on 3 Nov 2002, 10:00 a.m.,
in response to message #41 by Emmanuel, France

I need help to repair the sticking keys on my 42S. I read an article within this website, but can't findit now that I need it. Soes anyone know how to access it?

Re: Repairs for 42S
Message #43 Posted by Ellis Easley on 4 Nov 2002, 3:50 p.m.,
in response to message #42 by Randy

I guess you posted in this thread by accident, but I think the post you are looking for might have been "swept" into the Archives. A certain number of the latest messages are always in the current Forum and as new messages are posted, the older messages are moved to the highest numbered Archive. The same search methods work in the Forum and the Archives. There is a wealth of information there but it might take a little patience to search the several Archives to find what you are looking for. Good luck!

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