HP Forum Archive 08

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XPander on eBay Message #1 Posted by David Ramsey on 30 July 2002, 1:54 p.m. I see someone's just posted an Xpander on eBay. With two recent sales of "red dot" HP-35s at more than $750 (both, along with many other auctions, won by some sniper named "texaspyro" who's really starting to piss me off), I wonder what this little beauty will go for? A year or so back I posted a standing offer of $1K for an Xpander in the buy/sell area here. Somehow I think the eBay Xpander will go for more than that.

Re: XPander on eBay Message #2 Posted by Y. Samuel Arai on 30 July 2002, 2:26 p.m., in response to message #1 by David Ramsey There's a guy in Australia selling them new in the box for about $500. The last XPander I saw on EBay fetched around $500 or so, but was not new in the box. Sam

Re: XPander on eBay Message #3 Posted by David Ramsey on 30 July 2002, 5:56 p.m., in response to message #2 by Y. Samuel Arai Umm...do you have any information on that guy in Australia?

Re: XPander on eBay Message #4 Posted by Scott Pritchard on 31 July 2002, 11:07 a.m., in response to message #3 by David Ramsey I HAVE ONE IN A BOX NEW. If your interested. Scotty.

Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time Message #5 Posted by Mike on 30 July 2002, 3:03 p.m., in response to message #1 by David Ramsey IF you only bid what you are willing to pay, it makes no difference, if you are sniped or if someone just outbid you earlier. If you are outbid, you are outbid. Timing does not matter. If you could have gone higher, you should have gone higher. Why is it that people that low-bid items get so whiney when they are outbid?

Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time Message #6 Posted by David Ramsey on 30 July 2002, 5:56 p.m., in response to message #5 by Mike "Why is it that people that low-bid items get so whiney when they are outbid?" He's not pissing me off because of his sniping per se (although I consider it rude and it ensures that you can't reconsider your maximum bid in light of new information), but rather than he's obviously a speculator buying up a lot of stuff to resell, presumably for a profit, later. For example, I was outbid by him on an 82143A printer...and he also won the other auction for that model printer. So he's got two of these printers and two very expensive red dot calculators. A look at his past auction wins makes it obvious that he's a speculator with very deep pockets. This is legal and arguably ethical-- I'm free to use the same robot bidding programs he's using and try to snipe my way in. But it's still RUDE. IMO. And I reserve the right to be annoyed by it.

Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time Message #7 Posted by Mike on 30 July 2002, 11:14 p.m., in response to message #6 by David Ramsey You say:"he's obviously a speculator buying up a lot of stuff to resell, presumably for a profit, later" He has been buying items for years. Have you ever seen him sell anything. He pays top dollar for a lot of items. I suspect he is more of a collector than you think. The 2nd point is so what? Do you bid on things with the hopes that you will lose money? Even if you don't plan on selling it, you hope that you don't lose any money. You say: For example, I was outbid by him on an 82143A printer...and he also won the other auction for that model printer. So he's got two of these printers. Two? :-) He probably had 20. I have seen him buy lots of 15 calculators. He has bought at least three 9100s that I've seen. What's the big deal? But if you go back to what I said, "If you bid your maximum, you cannot lose, simply by timing", you however will lose because your bid is low. Why? Or better yet, what is the strategy in bidding low at something just a bit lower than you are willing to pay. It makes no sense. I understand making a token bid to track an item but making a legitimate bid that is below what you are willing to pay, makes no sense at all. Bidding late, does one thing, it keeps the price on auctions low. I 100% guarantee you that if he bid early, he would still have bid more than you, unless you bid more than the item was worth. See... that is what raises the price. The bottom line, and I repeat, is that if you bid early and don't bid what you are willing to pay, then you won't win. Someone will always bid more, on items that are collectible or below market value.

Another opinion: [Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time] Message #8 Posted by Raymond Hellstern (Germany) on 1 Aug 2002, 2:35 p.m., in response to message #7 by Mike >You say:"he's obviously a speculator buying up a lot of >stuff to resell, presumably for a profit, later" > >He has been buying items for years. Have you ever seen him >sell anything. He pays top dollar for a lot of items. I >suspect he is more of a collector than you think. > >You say: For example, I was outbid by him on an 82143A >printer...and he also won the other auction for that model >printer. So he's got two of these printers. > >Two? :-) He probably had 20. I have seen him buy lots of >15 calculators. He has bought at least three 9100s that >I've seen. What's the big deal? > So I suppose he wants to build his house out of printers and calcs instead of bricks. It's hard to believe that he doesn't buy big packages of the same model w/o wanting to refinance the ones he keeps by selling the others. And buying big packs reduces the cost of the individual item in many cases, so the word 'top dollar' becomes relative here. Sniping is legitim, of course. But sometimes it just kills the fun participating at an auction for many other people. And IMHO it doesn't show too much style;-) Two weeks ago I was bidding on an USB keyboard, of which the seller had about ten to sell. A minute before closing they all were between $5 and $7.50 . I had only one bid on one of the keyboards with $11 as my maximum, but I watched the others. TWO seconds before bid closing, 'my' kbd was at $8, some idiot sniped me, and forced me to bid one another one of those keyboards. I got this other kbd for $8, which was nearly the lowest final price of all those kbds, and I couldn't resist and ROTFL, because that sniper had to pay the highest price of all, about $12... Ok, that's not much money overall, but in this case he was the loser. I made similar experiences when bidding on HP items. >Bidding late, does one thing, it keeps the price on >auctions low. I 100% guarantee you that if he bid early, >he would still have bid more than you, unless you bid more >than the item was worth. See... that is what raises the >price. > That's one option. I think you know the other option, too: Buying big amounts of units for relatively low prices per unit, then selling them (resp. auctioning them) individually, which usually leads to higher prices, because people think they bid on rare items. Nearly everyone here knows that there are very few items which are really rare, most of the HP calcs and accesories were made in big quantities. Even prototypes and pre-series calcs were made several to hundreds per model. Regards, Raymond

Re: Another opinion: [Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time] Message #9 Posted by db(martinez,california) on 3 Aug 2002, 8:51 p.m., in response to message #8 by Raymond Hellstern (Germany) raymond; i had one of those low dollar ebay wierdnesses happen to me a couple of weeks ago. i'm not even mad; the guy did himself. i had bid $20 on an odd old calculator and the bids only went up to $9 but that was still below the reserve. i have been working a week and a half per week and did not watch it too close. he did not contact me but imediatly relisted it and someone who had not bid before did a buy it now for $10.75; fine - thats the rules. it is all unimportant, but nice to know that do to a combination of lazyness and greed the seller got a hair over half what i was willing to pay.

Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time Message #10 Posted by David Ramsey on 3 Aug 2002, 1:28 a.m., in response to message #7 by Mike Mike, I see a couple of possible contradictions here: You say: "He has been buying items for years. Have you ever seen him sell anything. He pays top dollar for a lot of items. I suspect he is more of a collector than you think." Perhaps. But then: "Two? :-) He probably had 20 (82143A printers). I have seen him buy lots of 15 calculators. He has bought at least three 9100s that I've seen." Does even the most rabid collector need 20 printers or even 3 9100s? Can you look at these quantities and really think he's not reselling? There's nothing wrong with that, but trying to make him out as merely an overzealous collector is silly. I'd also take exception to one more statement you made: "Bidding late, does one thing, it keeps the price on auctions low. I 100% guarantee you that if he bid early, he would still have bid more than you, unless you bid more than the item was worth. See... that is what raises the price." How come if he outbids me, I'm underestimating the value of the item, but if I outbid him, I'm paying more than the item was worth?

Re: I have to say this (yet) one more time Message #11 Posted by Luis Sisamon on 31 July 2002, 12:00 p.m., in response to message #6 by David Ramsey You can always feel annoyed by whatever you want, that is your right and I have nothing to say about that. Regarding timing, the other poster (Mike) is right. In auction you should value before you start bidding, and go for it. You also mention that you upgrade your bid when you get new information, this is perfectly fine and logical as long as you do not call the other perso's bid "new information". The fact that somebody is willing to pay 1$ more than you does not imply that you should be willing to pay $1 more than him/her. This leads very quickly to winner's curse. Again, you can dislike late bidding, but there is nothing wrong with it (but the fact that sometimes you could miss the deadline 8-). Cheers Luis

Re: XPander on eBay Message #12 Posted by who cares on 30 July 2002, 5:36 p.m., in response to message #1 by David Ramsey I'm about to believe the Xpander's best use is to rise its own price on e-bay

Re: XPander on eBay Message #13 Posted by Raymond Hellstern (Germany) on 31 July 2002, 7:21 p.m., in response to message #12 by who cares That's perfectly right. You can't use the machine for anything but for a collection of 'prototypes'. Same with the x25... Raymond BTW: Anyone wants to buy an x25 complete package? BTW2: Sorry, gone for $900... BTW3: The above 'BTW's' weren't meant seriously, of couse. I wouldn't sell my x25;-)

Re: XPander on eBay Message #14 Posted by David Smith on 30 July 2002, 5:53 p.m., in response to message #1 by David Ramsey Previous eXpanders on Ebay have sold for $450 +/- $50.

HP Calculators profitability Message #15 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 30 July 2002, 6:37 p.m., in response to message #1 by David Ramsey Hi; where else (or for who else) would Hewlett-Packard calculators (and extensions) be wanted so much, so their prices would go so high up in the sky? WE ARE SOMEWHAT RESPONSIBLES FOR THIS HIGH PRICES (and someone else also wrote some words closed to these here, at this very forum). We called attention of those who have never used an HP calculator, but sniff in here a bunch of users that know how to do it the best way. Take kids their candies off and they cry. I cry, too. I hate knowing old HP calculators cost that much, because I want to use them and I can't. I do not want to close them in a glass box to be seen by people. I remember someone mentioned here (too) that sometimes ago, the HP71B (and BII) was so cheap that people were almost throwing them away! Now we cannot find them for less than a couple of hundreds. Amazing. Forgive-me, guys, but I cannot agree with that. I feel myself responsible, too. Just because I like to use them, I like to think of HP calculators as more than electronic apparatus; they are amazing signs of human brain activity, as the result of this activity. (I about not to post this, but what the h...! I've seen and read so many things in here without complaining...) Sorry.

Re: HP Calculators profitability Message #16 Posted by W. Bruce Maguire II on 31 July 2002, 1:59 p.m., in response to message #15 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Luiz wrote: Sorry. Luiz: Don't apologize for stating your opinion! In my (not-always-so-humble-) opinion, as long as you are civil (and you have always been more than that), you need not apologoze for stating your opinion. I may---or may not---agree with you. And I'm not sorry about it. ;-) Bruce.

Re: XPander on eBay Message #17 Posted by David Smith on 31 July 2002, 7:21 p.m., in response to message #1 by David Ramsey BTW, your bids on the 82143A printers were not even the second highest bids. Two other people thought more highly of them than you. Also the printers included some highly desireable extras (such as a HP82120A rechargeable battery pack for the HP41). Your bids were not anywhere close to where they should have been to have half a chance of getting them.

Re: XPander on eBay Message #18 Posted by David Ramsey on 1 Aug 2002, 1:42 a.m., in response to message #17 by David Smith Shrug, you're right-- other people did think more highly of them than I did. But recall that I wasn't complaining about the prices they went for; just the bidding technique used, whose only purpose is to make sure that other people don't have the chance to reconsider and bid against you. And was $35 (my bid) really "not anywhere close" to what it should have been for an item that went for $41? Heck, I'd say I was in the ballpark...

Re: XPander on eBay Message #19 Posted by David Smith on 1 Aug 2002, 10:12 a.m., in response to message #18 by David Ramsey Yes, for a normal condition, plain 82143A in a box $35-$40 would be a reasonable bid (but probably still on the low side). A lot of times unboxed units go for that. Since these were at least advertised as being really nice (yeah, right) and had those tasty little extras thrown in, a much higher bid would be appropriate if one wanted a significant chance of getting them. They wound up going for a lot less than they should have (although the shipping seemed rather high, and would not be significantly reduced for the pair). As far as sniping goes, it increases your chance of winning an auction by a factor of 750-800%!!! This is based upon actual measured outcomes of a lot of auctions. This would not be so if people weren't so timid about bidding. They should just decide what an item is worth to them and bid that amount. That is what I do whether I snipe or not. A BIG advanatge of a last second bid is to keep your options open in case a different or better item comes up. Retracting a bid is VERY poor form. BTW, are you the David Ramsey who worked for Apple in Dallas in the days of the Apple II and III? I seem to remember he had a cat with a similar name.

Re: XPander on eBay Message #20 Posted by David Ramsey on 1 Aug 2002, 12:53 p.m., in response to message #19 by David Smith "A BIG advanatge of a last second bid is to keep your options open in case a different or better item comes up. Retracting a bid is VERY poor form." Good point. "BTW, are you the David Ramsey who worked for Apple in Dallas in the days of the Apple II and III? I seem to remember he had a cat with a similar name" Probably. I was in Dallas from 1979-1983, and although I didn't work at Apple, I was involved in the local Apple clubs ("Apple Corps", as I recall)

Re: XPander on eBay Message #21 Posted by Wlodek Mier-Jedrzejowicz on 1 Aug 2002, 7:33 p.m., in response to message #20 by David Ramsey Several people on this thread have said it makes sense to bid your top price early on. One disadvantage of this has not been mentioned - some bidders are well known and others will bid on the same item just because "s/he knows what they are doing, so it must be worth trying to outbid her/him". I have also come across the opposite - people who email me to say "I see you are bidding on X, and I know you will use it for your book/articles/etc, so I did not bid against you". That's very kind, but someone else might outbid me (or whoever) anyway. So bid away, and if you want to help Dave Hicks, me, or anyone else who shares information, offer them that information after you have won :-)

Re: XPander on eBay Message #22 Posted by James M. Prange on 1 Aug 2002, 11:52 p.m., in response to message #20 by David Ramsey Personally, I make it a habit to wait until the last day to place a bid, although I definitely don't practice the "last-minute" sniping. First, as David mentioned, that keeps my options open in case a similar but maybe better item comes up, second, I don't want to have to keep track of a lot of items that I'm currently bidding on, and third, I don't want to add to the "bandwagon effect" early in an auction. I agree that sniping is effective given eBay's rules, but I still consider it rude. I prefer to just place one bid on an item, whatever I'm really ready and willing to pay. "Dutch" auctions, though, are a little trickier. Regards, James

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