HP Forum Archive 05

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Re: Strange Message #1 Posted by Thibaut on 7 May 2001, 8:19 a.m. This buyer seems to have bought a 11C mint in box for $405 ! and got feedback for that... I would be tempted to think according to the purchase prices of the items he usually bids on, that this was no fake sale...

Re: Strange and crazy Message #2 Posted by Dane on 7 May 2001, 8:21 p.m., in response to message #1 by Thibaut Check out the reserve, $200 and you don't even get to see a pictureof the calc! This one is crazy as well: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1234392374 $137.50 for a Handbook! Could have picked it up from the museum cd and had money left over, I hope the poor bidder didn't think he was buying a 15c too!

Re: Strange and crazy Message #3 Posted by thibaut on 8 May 2001, 4:38 a.m., in response to message #2 by Dane Quite funny !

Re: Strange and crazy Message #4 Posted by Massimo (Italy) on 8 May 2001, 5:46 a.m., in response to message #2 by Dane azarashi@courante.plala.or.jp recently started bidding wildly high on several items on eBay... I think sellers enjoy his way! Let's hope he won't settle new, higher, price tags. :( Massimo

Re: Would you sell yours? Message #5 Posted by Joe on 8 May 2001, 9:09 a.m., in response to message #4 by Massimo (Italy) Say you have a MINT (unused still in shrinkwrap) ADVANCED FUNCTIONS HANDBOOK. Would you sell yours for, say, a reasonable amount of $40.00? What IS your reasonable price? Would YOU sell it for that? I agree that this is too high BUT... most collectors simply are living in a dreamworld, if they think supply/demand fit the old model. With the internet and eBay, the supply is still approximately the same but the demand is much higher. You may see 2 or 3 items and hundreds or thousands of people who are interested in it from all around the world. Remember, this bidder was not the only one to bid that price!

Re: Would you sell yours? Message #6 Posted by Jim L on 8 May 2001, 11:04 a.m., in response to message #5 by Joe I don't think ebay has changed demand but really just gives that illusion. People think the one they see on ebay is the last one they'll ever see so thay massively overbid. I've seen online dealers have products sitting on their websites unsold for months and then they move them to ebay and they auction for many times the price that they were ignored at :-) Over time collectors can catch on. I remember when some high-end but common slide rules first auctioned on ebay for over $400 but they're now back down in the $20s and $30s as people realized that there's always another one.

Re: You are oversimplifying this... Incorrectly Message #7 Posted by Joe on 8 May 2001, 2:56 p.m., in response to message #6 by Jim L Show me ONE (1) single dealer in the US that has: HP-65 sitting on a shelf unsold HP-55 sitting on a shelf unsold HP-15C Mint Manuals sitting on a shelf unsold HP-15C Calculators sitting on a shelf unsold For that matter, show me one that even has them, sold or unsold. If you want to make comments on this, why don't you use realistic facts.

Re: You are oversimplifying this... Incorrectly Message #8 Posted by Mike Martin on 8 May 2001, 5:02 p.m., in response to message #7 by Joe Well Joe, I actually have at least one of everything you mentioned sitting on the shelf unsold :). Granted, I could sell them all within an hour (at considerably more than I paid for them). I only sell locally to people I know have a true appreciation for what they are buying (even though I could get MUCH more on EBAY) and even under these conditions I have MUCH more demand than supply. I could probably find a home for every 41C/CV/CX sold on EBAY and there are a LOT of them. Quality NEVER goes out of style or demand and prices for items in near mint condition will almost certainly keep going up. Even well used items fetch top dollar and will probably continue to do so. They just don't make these things anymore (12C's don't count). Probably half the people buying old HP calculators are people who used them when they were first released and the other half are people who were not even born at the time.

Re: The point was... Message #9 Posted by Joe on 8 May 2001, 8:28 p.m., in response to message #8 by Mike Martin Ok since your point was that eBay is overcharging AND you say you have these items UNSOLD, I will give you $100 for the 65 $40 for the Mint HP-15C manual $100 for the HP-15C Ok? It is really disingenous of you to say the prices are over priced, when you won't sell at the lower prices yourself.

Think about what you're saying Message #10 Posted by Jim L on 8 May 2001, 9:03 p.m., in response to message #9 by Joe I'm a collector. I am not a dealer. I've done some trades and a few giveaways but I don't recall ever selling a HP calc. By your logic this makes the correct selling price of an HP calculator infinite! Go ahead, multiply your prices by 50 and watch me still not bite. Multiply them by 5000 and you'll make me think twice. OK the going rate for an HP65 is 500,000 dollars :-) Sorry Joe, but I'm not in it for the bucks so your argument falls apart. However you CAN find other people who ARE in it for the bucks who WILL take $100. Many dealers just mark things up to twice what they paid. "It is really disingenous of you..." Has insulting people generally been productive for you in the past? Also, I never said ebay was overcharging. Ebay's fees were quite low last time I looked. Do you understand that ebay isn't actually selling calculators? ebay only sells the auction service.

Re: Look at the title of my thread Message #11 Posted by Joe on 8 May 2001, 10:34 p.m., in response to message #10 by Jim L I responded to the guy who felt that eBay prices were too high. I responded that they were not too high because the supply is limited and the demand is higher with the internet. You, then, chimed in that there is plenty of supply, to which I responded "ok, show me some that I can buy cheap" (or rather I suggested that your notion was incorrect. It is still disingenous to suggest that there is plenty of supply but simply cannot point to any. Bottom line: If people are willing to pay the higher prices, then that is the real value. QED! The fact that you won't sell for that OR can't point to a single source "where someone can walk in and buy", then your price is NOT-REAL.

My entire calc collection just vanished in a puff of joe-logic!! Message #12 Posted by Jim L on 8 May 2001, 10:52 p.m., in response to message #11 by Joe Darn. Now I have to go rebuild my calculator collection at much higher (but real) joe-prices. Gee thanks Joe. Please don't make any of my other possessions vanish. OK joe? I'll be good if you promise not to logic them out of existence.

REAL and NOT REAL makes no sense Message #13 Posted by Mike Easton on 8 May 2001, 11:34 p.m., in response to message #11 by Joe LAZY and NOT LAZY prices or BUSY and UNBUSY prices or SKILLED and UNSKILLED prices or GOOD AREA and BAD AREA prices... Any of these distinctions would make sense but calling some prices NOT REAL whether high or low is just burying your head in the sand. The idea that if some people will pay a high price and others a low price, then that makes the high price the "real value" and the low price "not real" makes no sense to me.

Re: The point was... Message #14 Posted by Mike Easton on 8 May 2001, 10:38 p.m., in response to message #9 by Joe >It is really disingenous of you to say the prices are over >priced, when you won't sell at the lower prices yourself. That's like saying that only an oil company is allowed to complain about high gas prices. Or if you tell someone that the gas is cheaper in your state, that makes you responsible for shipping it to theirs. This whole "if you can get it for less than you must sell it to me for less" reasoning strikes me as something you might hear from someone who had just taken microeconomics 101 and thought he now understood how everything works. Basic microeconomics does not explain collector or auction behavior very well at all. For starters the participants rarely fit the classical definition of a rational consumer. (In reality nobody does but it's worse there.) By the way I think the word disingenuous looses a lot of its impact when it's misspelled. I normally hate spelling flames but this one cried out for it :-)

Re: Who said anything about... Message #15 Posted by Joe on 9 May 2001, 8:30 a.m., in response to message #14 by Mike Easton "if you can get it for less than you must sell it to me for less" The point was "IF YOU ABSOLUTELY WON'T", then you are fixing the absolute price. If you say I won't sell my widget for less than $100, you are setting the price for widgets. That is the point. The people who are complaining about the high prices are only doing so because they can't find lower prices. If they could, what is there to complain about? What is there to talk about? The fact is that, sure, it is possible to stumble across an HP-65 for $5.00 but that does not mean that the value is only worth $5.00 to the collector community at large. Calculator values are worth "what people are willing to pay". It is as simple as that. With the exposure of the internet and eBay, it won't be long before everyone who has ever seen a calculator will realize that they are worth far more than their garage sale prices. What gets me are people who say that calculator X is only worth $50 and that anyone who pays more, is paying too much but would NEVER in a million years sell it for $50, if an when they eventually sell it. That is the pure definition of disingenous.

That would be you Message #16 Posted by Mike Easton on 9 May 2001, 9:50 a.m., in response to message #15 by Joe You offered to buy someone's calculator. He said that he wouldn't for 50 times that price but had given some away. Based on that you defined the price to be whatever you wanted.

Don't you think it's also disingenuous Message #17 Posted by Dave Hicks on 9 May 2001, 11:44 a.m., in response to message #15 by Joe to be using that word while posting under an alias? I can see from your feedback rating and recent auctions that you're a large ebay dealer and I have a hunch that you're looking for new sources for your business. I have no problem with that. I even think it's clever to try to insult someone into revealing his sources :-) However I would like to keep the insults off this forum as much as possible and if you really feel the need to insult someone, I would prefer that you take credit for your words.

Re: Don't you think it's also disingenuous Message #18 Posted by Tom (UK) on 9 May 2001, 12:52 p.m., in response to message #17 by Dave Hicks Well said Dave. My 2 cents worth: I would gladly give away some of my HP calcs if: 1) The person would value it as much as me 2) They would not sell it and make a quick buck out of me 3) It would engender interest and enthusiasm in HP calcs If some of the above did not apply I would not sell any of my calcs - unless for silly money which would allow me to expand my modest collection. I think this is the difference between collectors and dealers.

Why do you say this? Message #19 Posted by Jim L on 8 May 2001, 5:07 p.m., in response to message #7 by Joe The dealer I was thinking of was Dan Dotson. AT ONE TIME he was rather well stocked with multiple 65s and 55s at low prices. He also had an 80 or two, some obscure woodstocks and lots of other stuff. Conditions ranged from fair to near mint. Some of it was dirty but it was just dirt and dust. I picked off some the best stuff. Then he discovered ebay. After that a lot of his stuff was on ebay and stuff that wasn't was priced like it was. A lot of stuff that I had left behind and had been sitting there for months sitting through several price reductions sold for a LOT more than his highest prices after he moved it to ebay. I hold no grudge against him but I haven't bought from him in years either. I can think of many other people I've bought from who now sell on ebay but I can still find new sellers. Paxton Hoag was good for a while too. He used to have dozens of HPs sitting in his junk store/warehouse. He moved to ebay too. I got my blanknut and some spare 67s from him. He had a big can of 41C modules labeled "four for a dollar". Those were the first thing he put on ebay and I think he got $50 for one in his first auction. The store disappeared about that time but I'm not sure that's causal. Dan and Paxton are some of the bigger examples that most collectors know about. Many of my calcs have been purchased one or two at a time from much more obscure sources. Please tell me how I'm being unrealistic Joe. I have at least one each of every model and I've never bought from ebay. If you mean doing a little work to find good prices is unrealistic, then lets just say that our collecting styles are different. I enjoy the hunt and don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on old calculators with little intrinsic value. If that doesn't describe you that's fine. I feel no need to call you incorrect or unrealistic -just different.

Re: You are oversimplifying this... Incorrectly Message #20 Posted by Chris Catotti on 9 May 2001, 2:43 p.m., in response to message #7 by Joe I hate it when someone says you can't! Don at: International Calculator & Computer 2916 CORRINE DR ORLANDO FL 32803 U.S.A. (407) 898-0081 http://www.internationalcalculator.com/ has at least one of each of these on his shelf for sale right now. He has had his store in Orlando since the 1970's, and has been open ever since. I have no idea what his prices are these days, what condition they are in and really no interest. The point is, the HP things are still out there. {Dave Hicks, send me an e-mail if I should delete this from here and put it in the classifieds, it just seemed to fit here.}

Re: Would you sell yours? Message #21 Posted by thibaut on 8 May 2001, 11:08 a.m., in response to message #5 by Joe you have to consider dealing with calculators on ebay not as the perfec competition, but as a monopoly or sometimes an oligopoly. Therefore the demand will most often reach the offer price, hence the crazy prices we seem to see. I consider that USD40 for a new manual is very well paid : I recently sold to one of our mates a lot of stuff amongst which many new manuals for USD 80 !

Re: Would you sell yours? Message #22 Posted by David Smith on 8 May 2001, 1:31 p.m., in response to message #5 by Joe Once must always remember that when buying something on EBAY or at auction one is quite literally paying more for that item than anyone else in the world. I have paid anywhere from 5 dollars to over 500 dollars for an HP-65. The difference? One was in almost new condition from a garage sale seller who didn't know what he had. The other an absolutely mint fully accessorized unit on EBAY. I think either unit was well worth the money and would gladly repeat the purchases if given the chance.

Re: Would you sell yours? Message #23 Posted by Chris Catotti on 9 May 2001, 1:21 p.m., in response to message #22 by David Smith Well, I think I will weigh in on this thread ... I have a couple of generally defined goals in collecting Goal 1. Archive all of the software functionality of the HP-41, both in ROM application pacs and in paper listings and bar code Goal 2. Archive all of the club journals and magazines related to the HP-41 Goal 3. Archive all of the Hewlett Packard manuals, quick reference cards, etc. for the HP-41 and HP-IL devices in all eight (?) languages (English, German, Japanese, French, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.). THIS GOAL IS THE CRAZIEST (I only understand English), and at times the costly, because I really do think It may be the only one I will see. By the way, if you have a foreign language manual, I probably want it. If you need one, check with the HP Museum on CD-ROM, and if it's not there and I have it I will scan it and give a copy to you and Dave Hicks (maybe he can put it on a CD-ROM) free of charge (This offer is only if you need it to use, and is with the understanding that further distribution will be without profit.) Goal 4. Continue enjoying using and learning with the HP-41 for another 60 years Goal 5. Keep my family first, and especially not drive my wife crazy with file cabinets of "stuff". To achieve these goals, I continue to sell on ebay and buy on ebay. And I will usually sell anything without a reserve price and usually start it at $0.41 or $9.99. If I had an HP-65, I would sell it on ebay for $0.65 or whatever extra the world was willing to pay.

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