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My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
08-25-2016, 12:52 AM (This post was last modified: 08-25-2016 01:06 AM by Galuppo.)
Post: #1
My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
Hi guys!

As an Econ student I decided to first buy the HP10BII+ for its price and functionalities.

My cousin gifted me his Hp12c Platinum, 1 battery on the back and CN serial number engraved on the case, not as a sticker, that I had to sent to repair for just 20 bucks and needless to say I was stoked.

The problem now is that my 10bII+ feels so much faster and it never has the "running" sign.

For instance, the 12c took whooping 25 seconds when trying to calculate the required interest rate for a -45 PMT, 10925.76 FV and an N of 168 while the 10bII+ did it INSTANTLY!

I'd like to know if it's something with my calculator and if I should stick with the 10bII+.

Thanks a lot guys!
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08-25-2016, 02:01 AM
Post: #2
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(08-25-2016 12:52 AM)Galuppo Wrote:  Hi guys!

As an Econ student I decided to first buy the HP10BII+ for its price and functionalities.

My cousin gifted me his Hp12c Platinum, 1 battery on the back and CN serial number engraved on the case, not as a sticker, that I had to sent to repair for just 20 bucks and needless to say I was stoked.

The problem now is that my 10bII+ feels so much faster and it never has the "running" sign.

For instance, the 12c took whooping 25 seconds when trying to calculate the required interest rate for a -45 PMT, 10925.76 FV and an N of 168 while the 10bII+ did it INSTANTLY!

I'd like to know if it's something with my calculator and if I should stick with the 10bII+.

Thanks a lot guys!

While the 10bII+ lacks RPN and the classic style and hardware quality feel of the 12C, it is a superior machine in just about every way, including dramatic speed increase as you've found. I believe it also uses higher precision math (Tim?) internally, plus provides extended math functions not available on the 12C/12CP.

It's a great choice if you're happy with Algebraic logic, there's nothing like it in its price range.

Search old Forum posts here, there are lots of comments, virtually all are positive.

Enjoy your 10bII+.

--Bob Prosperi
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08-25-2016, 02:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-25-2016 02:22 AM by Gerson W. Barbosa.)
Post: #3
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(08-25-2016 12:52 AM)Galuppo Wrote:  For instance, the 12c took whooping 25 seconds when trying to calculate the required interest rate for a -45 PMT, 10925.76 FV and an N of 168 while the 10bII+ did it INSTANTLY!

So will do the most recent HP-12C, a. k. a. HP-12C+:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...ead=177549
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08-25-2016, 03:11 PM
Post: #4
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(08-25-2016 02:01 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  For instance, the 12c took whooping 25 seconds when trying to calculate the required interest rate for a -45 PMT, 10925.76 FV and an N of 168 while the 10bII+ did it INSTANTLY!

Yeah, that is pretty much normal. There are only 2 or 3 calculations that can possibly show the "running" message if I remember correctly due to the speed. (inverse T, cflow, interest calc - if memory serves right)


As others have pointed out, provided you can live with the non-RPN, the non-programability, and the "not quite as good hardware" - it actually is a more capable unit. The 12cp will be much slower then either a new 12c or the 10bII+ (which both use a modern, ARM processor while the 12cp uses a very slow, older design). When comparing the original 12C compared with the newer 12cp, you'd generally see anywhere from a 4x-8x speed increase over the original 12C. The newer 12C is about 120x-140x the speed of the original. The 10bII+ will be in the same speed range.

There are some exams that only allow either the 12C/12CP from the HP side of things (CFA/CFP???). So that might be important to check for you depending on future plans.

There is a rather authoritative 10bII+ review found in a newsletter here if you are interested. http://h20331.www2.hp.com/hpsub/download...011_v2.pdf



Quote:I believe it also uses higher precision math (Tim?) internally, plus provides extended math functions not available on the 12C/12CP.

Yes, the 12/15 digit napier library is in use on the 10bII+.

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
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08-25-2016, 03:20 PM
Post: #5
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
Wow! I am "authoritative" ?

:-)

ty
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08-25-2016, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 08-25-2016 03:53 PM by Galuppo.)
Post: #6
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
What a bummer! I thought I had a good unit in my hands! The repair guy even hyped me up by showing the inside made of metal compared to a flimsy Chinese model. He told me they don't manufacture it like that anymore and that I had been lucky!

I have to confess I really want to stick with the 12c, which is much better looking and has a hard leather case. I'm not planning on becoming a CFA, though.

I guess I can live with the "running" message if it only happens in a few calculations.

I just wish there was a way to upgrade its processor, haha.
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08-26-2016, 05:36 AM
Post: #7
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
Hello,

The microprocessor is already upgraded (runs a 48Mhz)...
The 12C is slower than the 10BII+, which uses the same CPU, solely because the 12C is emulating the old CPU and that the old algorithms were not as good as the new ones...

Cyrille

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own. I do not speak for HP.
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01-05-2020, 10:37 PM
Post: #8
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
Can HP 10bII+ solve this, for I ? (PV and FV having the same sign)

N = 30
PV = 1000
FV = 50000
PMT = -1000

My vintage HP-12C failed, with Error 5
Tried it with emu48 HP50g finance apps, it failed too, "Error: many or no solutions"

TI BA-35 Solar solved it with no problem, returning 3.65%
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01-05-2020, 10:46 PM
Post: #9
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(01-05-2020 10:37 PM)Albert Chan Wrote:  Can HP 10bII+ solve this, for I ? (PV and FV having the same sign)

N = 30
PV = 1000
FV = 50000
PMT = -1000

My vintage HP-12C failed, with Error 5
Tried it with emu48 HP50g finance apps, it failed too, "Error: many or no solutions"

TI BA-35 Solar solved it with no problem, returning 3.65%

The HP-10bII+ responds immediately with "no Solution".

--Bob Prosperi
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01-05-2020, 11:10 PM
Post: #10
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(01-05-2020 10:37 PM)Albert Chan Wrote:  Can HP 10bII+ solve this, for I ? (PV and FV having the same sign)

N = 30
PV = 1000
FV = 50000
PMT = -1000

My vintage HP-12C failed, with Error 5
Tried it with emu48 HP50g finance apps, it failed too, "Error: many or no solutions"

As does my 17bII+

Cambridge, UK
41CL/DM41X 12/15C/16C DM15/16 71B 17B/BII/bII+ 28S 42S/DM42 32SII 48GX 50g 35s 30b/WP34S Prime G2
& Casios, Rockwell 18R :)
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01-05-2020, 11:12 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2020 11:13 PM by ijabbott.)
Post: #11
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(01-05-2020 10:37 PM)Albert Chan Wrote:  Can HP 10bII+ solve this, for I ? (PV and FV having the same sign)

N = 30
PV = 1000
FV = 50000
PMT = -1000

My vintage HP-12C failed, with Error 5
Tried it with emu48 HP50g finance apps, it failed too, "Error: many or no solutions"

TI BA-35 Solar solved it with no problem, returning 3.65%

The HP 10bII+ doesn't solve it. Neither does the HP Prime, nor the Casio fx-CG50. The TI Nspire does solve it.

— Ian Abbott
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01-06-2020, 12:15 AM
Post: #12
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
The TVM program I use on my 42S comes back with the correct result, after a little bit of processing time.
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01-06-2020, 01:04 AM
Post: #13
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
My guess so many calculators failed this is because we have multiple solutions.
For my posted example, we have 2 (real) solutions for I.

Using HP-12C IRR (with the good guess), it did solve them.

Clear Reg
1000 CF0      ; PV
CHS CFj        ; PMT
29 Nj            ; N-1
49000 CFj     ; FV + last payment

IRR                             → Error 3
3 [i] RCL [g] [R/S]       → 3.651974353
100 [i] RCL [g] [R/S]    → 99.99999525
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01-06-2020, 02:11 AM
Post: #14
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(01-06-2020 01:04 AM)Albert Chan Wrote:  My guess so many calculators failed this is because we have multiple solutions.

My HP-19BII Business ConsultantII concurs with MANY OR NO SOLUTIONS message.

BEST!
SlideRule
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01-06-2020, 02:53 AM
Post: #15
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
Casio fc-200 (not the newer fc-200V) spits out an error immediately when you try to solve this. If I get bored tomorrow, I'll dig out the fc-1000 and Sharp EL-738 and see what they do.
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01-06-2020, 03:46 AM
Post: #16
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
My Sharp EL-733A goes completely blank for about 6 seconds, then surprisingly it displays the correct answer of 3.65%.

--Bob Prosperi
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01-06-2020, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 05:25 AM by Gamo.)
Post: #17
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
My Casio (1987) “Financial Consultant” FC-100 took about 8 second with 3.65%

Try on HP-12C and got ERROR 5 and is about Compound Interest
As state in the 12C User’s Handbook about error 5 page 183

PMT ≤ –PV × i
PMT = FV × i
i ≤ –100
The values in i, PV, and FV are such that no
solution exists for n.

Gamo
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01-06-2020, 10:25 AM
Post: #18
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
(08-25-2016 12:52 AM)Galuppo Wrote:  For instance, the 12c took whooping 25 seconds when trying to calculate the required interest rate for a -45 PMT, 10925.76 FV and an N of 168 while the 10bII+ did it INSTANTLY!

I'd like to know if it's something with my calculator and if I should stick with the 10bII+.

Thanks a lot guys!

What interest rate did it come up with? My Casio fx-CG50 got 5.010459965 instantly.

Tom L
I don't care for whom you voted. If you put ice in your beer, you're crazy.
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01-06-2020, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 05:23 PM by Albert Chan.)
Post: #19
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
XCas easily handle this rate problem.

XCas> nfv(n, r, pv, pmt, fv) := fv + pv + ((1+r)^n - 1) * (pv + pmt/r)

XCas> solve(nfv(168,x,0,-45,10925.76) = 0)      // OP, Galuppo's example
      → [0.00417538330383]                               // ×12 → 5.01045996459%

XCas> solve(nfv(30,x,1000,-1000,50000) = 0)   // my example returned 2 rates
      → [0.0365197435259, 0.999999952503]

Timings suggest solve (without guess) actually call proots, then removes the complex roots.

Some real roots for rate are meaningless, say with r ≤ -100%.
Let x = 1+r, and consider only positive x as valid, we get:

\( NFV = FV + PV x^n + PMT\left({x^n-1 \over x-1}\right)\)

\(\large {NFV \over PMT} = \left({PV \over PMT}\right) x^n + x^{n-1} + x^{n-2} + \;... +\;x + \left(1 + {FV \over PMT}\right)\)

If above has one sign change, we have exactly one positive solution for x.

For 2 sign changes, x has 0 or 2 positive roots (see Descartes' sign rules)
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01-06-2020, 07:45 PM
Post: #20
RE: My HP 10bII+ is much faster than HP 12c!
I tried a few other models for kicks.

Sharp EL-738: Returns 3.65 after displaying "calculating!" for a second or two. I can't seem to get it to find the other solution by storing I% around 100.

Sharp EL-533: Screen goes blank for about 5-10 seconds, and it returns 3.65. I also can't get this one to find the other answer.

Casio fc-1000: Immediate "Ma ERROR".

TI "The MBA": Screen blanks out for a rather long time while it crunches numbers, and it returns a nonsensical 2.99968168. (Note that my unit is acting a little flaky, so this might not be a good data point.)
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