WP 34S --> WP 31S
02-02-2014, 02:56 PM
Post: #41
 David Hayden Member Posts: 246 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-01-2014 03:30 PM)walter b Wrote:  Personally, I think programmability is important. Even if you're just entering simple formulas. So my preference would be one MENU key, keep programmability, add a PROG menu (under the MENU key) and put the bare minimum programming keys on the keyboard ...
Quote:"... lift off ... we have lift off ...!" Are you still aware we're talking about a 30b-based calc with that ... display? Christmas is over. No softkeys, no menu structure ... Good grief
I might be missing something. Doesn't STAT invoke a menu that you scroll through? I understand that there are no soft keys. Ah are you saying that nested menus aren't realistic?

One more thing occurs to me. Given the way you navigate menus on the 34s, should the up-arrow be an unshifted function? Otherwise going up through a menu us cumbersome.

Dave
02-02-2014, 03:02 PM
Post: #42
 Sanjeev Visvanatha Member Posts: 255 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-02-2014 02:56 PM)David Hayden Wrote:  One more thing occurs to me. Given the way you navigate menus on the 34s, should the up-arrow be an unshifted function? Otherwise going up through a menu us cumbersome.

Up is Back stepping through the catalog, I believe.

-- Sanjeev Visvanatha
02-02-2014, 03:47 PM
Post: #43
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-02-2014 02:56 PM)David Hayden Wrote:
(02-01-2014 03:30 PM)walter b Wrote:
(02-01-2014 02:24 PM)David Hayden Wrote:  Another thing to consider for cleaning up the appearance is a single MENU key that would lead to the STAT, MODE, CONST, DISPL, CLEAR and MORE menus. More keystrokes but clean and easy.

Would it be useful to have a CAT key to get the full catalog?

Personally, I think programmability is important. Even if you're just entering simple formulas. So my preference would be one MENU key, keep programmability, add a PROG menu (under the MENU key) and put the bare minimum programming keys on the keyboard ...

"... lift off ... we have lift off ...!" Are you still aware we're talking about a 30b-based calc with that ... display? Christmas is over. No softkeys, no menu structure ... Good grief

I might be missing something. Doesn't STAT invoke a menu that you scroll through? I understand that there are no soft keys. Ah are you saying that nested menus aren't realistic?

One more thing occurs to me. Given the way you navigate menus on the 34s, should the up-arrow be an unshifted function? Otherwise going up through a menu us cumbersome.

Please see p. 147 (of 244) of the manual for catalog navigation.

No, I don't think a MENU menu suites that platform. Will be slightly different on the 43S.

d:-I
02-03-2014, 06:55 PM
Post: #44
 Jeff O. Member Posts: 166 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-01-2014 11:25 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:
(02-01-2014 06:01 PM)Gene Wrote:  Gene: I'm pretty sure Eric could make an overlay where the letter is placed in the lower left corner of the key overlay sticker. These could be tiny since they are not needed with anywhere near the frequency as in the 34S.

Better for this outcome than to have an entire overlay over all the keys - just a set of stickers over the keys and boom... done. IMO, of course. :-)

...Maybe the alpha labels could even go on the top of the keys, where there is more real estate. The advantage is that all Eric would have to produce would be a set of key stickers, greatly increasing the yield from the material. The 31s would then also be distinctive, with a nifty brushed silver keyboard plane, assuming a 30b was used as the base unit (by far the best way to go, after all).

Below is what the above suggestion (alpha labels on the keytops) might look like. I based this on an svg file that Eric uses (or used at one time), so the legends and such should fit on the key labels as shown.

Dave - My mind is going - I can feel it.
02-03-2014, 07:28 PM
Post: #45
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 06:55 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  Below is what the above suggestion (alpha labels on the keytops) might look like.

Jeff,

I like this and I think it should work...although I will be interested to hear what Walter (and Eric?) say about this.

-Jonathan
02-03-2014, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 07:46 PM by Jonathan Cameron.)
Post: #46
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
Once more into the fray...

I've been playing around with compiling the WP-34s on my Ubuntu system and learning how to define new constants and conversions. And it occurred to me that I would really like conversions on this calculator! So here is what I propose:
• Move the probabilty Cx,y and Px,y functions to the MORE menu. I think for most folks these are functions that are only occasionally used so having them in the MORE menu makes sense to me.
• Restore the CONV menu to shift-7, shift-8, or shift-9. If we want some similarity to the WP-34s layout, we could move the CONV menu to shift-right-arrow (key 61) and move SHOW to one of shift-7, shift-8, or shift-9.
• That leaves one empty (shifted) spot. Not sure what to do with it. It would be nice to get the "UP" (up arrow) key back on top somehow but I cannot figure out how to make that work without fouling up other nice arrangements.

-Jonathan
02-03-2014, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 11:19 PM by Jonathan Cameron.)
Post: #47
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
Based Jeff's lettering proposal, my desire to have CONV (see my previous post), I decided to provide an update to Jeff's post that reworks things a bit:

That leaves one shifted slot open, puts both up arrow and down arrow on top, puts the Cx,y and Px,y probability functions in the MORE menu, and moves all statistics functions to shifted keys.

-Jonathan

P.S. Edited to show keyboard with a larger image.

Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)

02-03-2014, 09:25 PM
Post: #48
 Jeff O. Member Posts: 166 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 08:55 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  Based Jeff's lettering proposal, my desire to have CONV (see my previous post), I decided to provide an update to Jeff's post that reworks things a bit:

That leaves one shifted slot open, puts both up arrow and down arrow on top, puts the Cx,y and Px,y probability functions in the MORE menu, and moves all statistics functions to shifted keys.

-Jonathan

Nice re-work of my graphic. It's probably OK with me, I suspect Walter may object to relegating sigma+ to a shifted function. By the way if you would like to include a large version of your picture in your post, just include this line in your post:

Code:
[img]http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=230[/img]

with the number at the end (230 in your case) changed to match the number of your attachement, like this:

Dave - My mind is going - I can feel it.
02-03-2014, 09:26 PM
Post: #49
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 07:28 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:
(02-03-2014 06:55 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  Below is what the above suggestion (alpha labels on the keytops) might look like.
... I like this and I think it should work...although I will be interested to hear what Walter (and Eric?) say about this.

Jeff's design looks viable - theoretically. If one of you had a real WP 34S, however, I'd ask you to take a look at STO, RCL, EXIT, x<>y, and please tell me where you want to put an extra letter. And please try to print your design to scale before you assess it.

Gentlemen, what's so terrific about letters on a nice black background? It even reduces glare and reflections from that fancy silver front. There were reasons why vintage HP calculators had a dark keyplate, weren't they?

d:-I
02-03-2014, 09:47 PM
Post: #50
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 09:25 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  Nice re-work of my graphic. It's probably OK with me, I suspect Walter may object to relegating sigma+ to a shifted function.

Yes, I'm wondering what he will say!

(02-03-2014 09:25 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  By the way if you would like to include a large version of your picture in your post, just include this line in your post:
Thanks for the tip! I edited my post with this fix.

-Jonathan
02-03-2014, 11:19 PM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2014 03:35 AM by Jonathan Cameron.)
Post: #51
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 08:55 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  Based Jeff's lettering proposal, my desire to have CONV (see my previous post), I decided to provide an update to Jeff's post that reworks things a bit:

A couple more options as an update to my post (post #50 above):
• We could put Factorial as shift-UP and restore RMDR to shift-divide
• If we pushed the statistics functions 'r' and y-hat to the STAT menu, we could put two more shifted items on the keyboard. Not suggesting what, but it seems to me like having a total of 7 (shifted) keys on the keyboard devoted to statistics on a basic calculator is overdoing it (since these extra functions would be available via the STAT menu). Potential candidates to bring to the keys: DEG->, RAD->, RMDR (see previous point), RAN#, and ||.
Also, in response to folks asking to including programming, I think that misses the point of this calculator! This design is supposed to be a simple, everyday RPN calculator for us and for "Junior RPN" types learning RPN--for basic calculations. A programming calculator gets almost back to a full WP-34s to be effective.

-Jonathan
02-04-2014, 03:31 AM
Post: #52
 Paul Dale Senior Member Posts: 1,467 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
You might pick up indirection with the right arrow present.....
At least, that functionality would have to be purposefully removed.

- Pauli
02-04-2014, 03:48 AM
Post: #53
 Gene Moderator Posts: 895 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 11:19 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  -Jonathan

Gene: I would like to also propose the following:

1) Change position of DEG and H.d. Puts H.d and H.MS side by side for either or functionality.

2) I like the idea of putting RMDR on / and moving x! to shift UP.

3) Moving y-hat to STAT is not a step ahead, IMO. The beauty of y-hat is to enter an X and easily / quickly predict a Y value. Putting this somewhere into STAT will not be good.

4) I didn't understand earlier remarks someone (Walter?) made about PI as a top key vs. HYP. If HYP is a top key, then HYP SIN is two keypresses and HYP ASIN is 3. With it as a shifted function, F HYP SIN is 3 and F HYP F SIN is 4 keypresses for inverse. I know PI is always two keypresses if positioned as a shift key, but I'm ok with that (your mileage may vary of course - depends on how often you need to key PI from a key) :-)

5) I would like yellow shift moved above the up arrow and the two arrow keys moved down. Generally speaking, shift keys placed centrally reduce finger travel length which is a good thing.

My 2 cents. I have 30b units on hand ready to flash. :-)
02-04-2014, 04:06 AM
Post: #54
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
Hi Gene,

(02-04-2014 03:48 AM)Gene Wrote:  I would like to also propose the following:

I agree with most of these items:

1 - Rearrange DEG/etc keys - Okay (I do not have a strong opinion)
2 - Restore RMDR on shift-divide and put ! on shift-UP - Agree
3 - Save y-hat on some key - Okay. But I think 'r' could go under STAT
4 - PI vs HYP - No opinion
5 - Move shift key up - That sounds good. This keeps the up/down keys where they are on the 34s

-Jonathan
02-04-2014, 04:12 AM
Post: #55
 Sanjeev Visvanatha Member Posts: 255 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-04-2014 03:48 AM)Gene Wrote:  5) I would like yellow shift moved above the up arrow and the two arrow keys moved down. Generally speaking, shift keys placed centrally reduce finger travel length which is a good thing.
Don't the Up and Down Arrow keys in this layout also double as Roll keys for the stack? I would think those should be as close to the ENTER as you can get.

-- Sanjeev Visvanatha
02-04-2014, 04:52 AM
Post: #56
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
Based on Gene's suggestions (and mine), I've worked up another keyboard layout:

Gene, this does not address the PI/HYP issue since I was not sure which way that discussion was going to go.

Also, I think the 'r' could be put on the STAT menu, but I've left it in since I was not sure what to put in its place..

-Jonathan

Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)

02-04-2014, 09:12 AM
Post: #57
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 09:47 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:
(02-03-2014 09:25 PM)Jeff O. Wrote:  Nice re-work of my graphic. It's probably OK with me, I suspect Walter may object to relegating sigma+ to a shifted function.

Yes, I'm wondering what he will say!

d:-)
02-04-2014, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2014 09:29 AM by walter b.)
Post: #58
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-04-2014 04:12 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:
(02-04-2014 03:48 AM)Gene Wrote:  5) I would like yellow shift moved above the up arrow and the two arrow keys moved down. Generally speaking, shift keys placed centrally reduce finger travel length which is a good thing.
Don't the Up and Down Arrow keys in this layout also double as Roll keys for the stack? I would think those should be as close to the ENTER as you can get.

Edit: What was changed: Added CONV and PROB with contents as listed. Thus, COMB and PERM went into PROB. Moved DEG and RAD, STAT and MORE. Added a few functions to MORE. That's all.

Edit 2: Enlarged the image to make it easier to look at it.

d:-)

Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)

02-04-2014, 02:05 PM
Post: #59
 Jonathan Cameron Member Posts: 204 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 09:26 PM)walter b Wrote:  Jeff's design looks viable - theoretically. If one of you had a real WP 34S, however, I'd ask you to take a look at STO, RCL, EXIT, x<>y, and please tell me where you want to put an extra letter. And please try to print your design to scale before you assess it.

Gentlemen, what's so terrific about letters on a nice black background? It even reduces glare and reflections from that fancy silver front. There were reasons why vintage HP calculators had a dark keyplate, weren't they?

I'm sitting here looking at my WP 34s and I think I agree with Walter. I think the black background overlay with the letters will actually look less cluttered. As much as I would like to omit the background overlay, I think I have to stop being lazy and plan to live with it.

-Jonathan
02-04-2014, 05:48 PM
Post: #60
 Jeff O. Member Posts: 166 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S
(02-03-2014 09:26 PM)walter b Wrote:  Jeff's design looks viable...

Thanks!

(02-03-2014 09:26 PM)walter b Wrote:  And please try to print your design to scale before you assess it.

Certainly would have to print and cut plastic to see if it would really be viable. I tried to assure viability by working from the graphic used to cut the existing wp34s overlay. But I am only rudimentarily proficient at using the software (Inkscape), and not at all familiar with proceeding from that graphic to actual printing and cutting, so perhaps I missed something.

(02-03-2014 09:26 PM)walter b Wrote:  Gentlemen, what's so terrific about letters on a nice black background? It even reduces glare and reflections from that fancy silver front. There were reasons why vintage HP calculators had a dark keyplate, weren't they?

Nothing wrong with that at all. But, this is supposed to be a simple calculator. Dispensing with the need to print and install the full keyboard overlay would go a long way in keeping it simple and making it more likely to see the light of day. In fact, if we stick (pun?) to a design needing only stickers for the keys, that might be doable by the average Joe (printing a grid of rectangular key stickers that could be cut apart with a straight-edge and an exacto knife.)

Dave - My mind is going - I can feel it.
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