WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
02-22-2015, 06:13 PM
Post: #21
 Bit Member Posts: 265 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 05:55 PM)walter b Wrote:  Bit, I suggest you look a little bit into the archives before assessing particular contributions. Please don't forget history in this matter starts 2008. Looking forward to your research results.

Walter, you clearly have something specific in mind that you'd like to communicate. I can't read all the archives from 2008 till now. Even if I could, I can't read your mind to figure out what exactly you may have been referring to. Let's not talk in riddles. Please just write down what you mean plainly and clearly. Thank you.
02-22-2015, 06:20 PM
Post: #22
 pascal_meheut Member Posts: 143 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-20-2015 01:15 PM)walter b Wrote:  [*]The comprehensive information to operate it shall be free?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
Software is free, emulators are free, people who contribute to the source code or help here do it for free...
Why should the electronic documentation not be free as well?
02-22-2015, 06:23 PM
Post: #23
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 06:13 PM)Bit Wrote:  Let's not talk in riddles.

Hmmh, first you argue you know something then you argue you don't. Too difficult for my little brain.

d:-?
02-22-2015, 07:10 PM
Post: #24
 Bit Member Posts: 265 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 06:23 PM)walter b Wrote:
(02-22-2015 06:13 PM)Bit Wrote:  Let's not talk in riddles.
Hmmh, first you argue you know something then you argue you don't. Too difficult for my little brain.
Walter, I'll read whatever old post you'd like me to if you give me a link. But trying to get me spend my time browsing through many years of archives without even a pointer on what and where to look for, just seems like an attempt to evade the question.

There is one simple issue here, let me spell it out as plainly as I can: Why are you refusing everyone access to the documentation, who (1) may like to use an electronic format as it's faster, or (2) would like to contribute to it or build upon it, or (3) perhaps can't easily afford to pay for it? This is an open source project, except for the documentation. What are your specific reasons and why is this not the wrong thing to do?

Are you willing to give a straightforward answer, or if you don't like to repeat yourself, point to an earlier post where you have given a straightforward answer?
02-22-2015, 09:16 PM (This post was last modified: 02-23-2015 07:47 AM by Didier Lachieze.)
Post: #25
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,143 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
I dont know if this is what Walter is referring to, but post #15 in this thread may give you some clues.
02-22-2015, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 02-22-2015 10:13 PM by pascal_meheut.)
Post: #26
 pascal_meheut Member Posts: 143 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 09:16 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  I dont know if this is what Walter is referring to, but post #15 in this thread may give you some clues.

I read the post and if this is the case, i.e. if the pdf version is not available only to "help" selling the less convenient printed manual then I'm surprised and disappointed to say the least.
This is not how an open-source project should be.
02-23-2015, 05:05 AM
Post: #27
 BarryMead Senior Member Posts: 416 Joined: Feb 2014
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 05:04 PM)Bit Wrote:  Moreover, the lack of an editable version prevents the community from contributing to the documentation in meaningful ways. You can submit corrections but that won't inspire a similar level of participation and inventiveness you could have if the process was very quick and transparent and experimentation was easy. If someone would like to take up this project and create e.g. a 36S, they'd have to duplicate the work that's already been done instead of being able to continue it and adapt the documentation.
I think that being able to have more than one person contribute to the manual would make a much better manual. For instance the current manual has no INDEX! This could and would be contributed to the manual if members of the open source community were able to help.
02-23-2015, 07:35 AM
Post: #28
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-23-2015 05:05 AM)BarryMead Wrote:  I think that being able to have more than one person contribute to the manual would make a much better manual. For instance the current manual has no INDEX! This could and would be contributed to the manual if members of the open source community were able to help.

Now what is it what you want, what you really, really want? If you want a pdf you don't need an index. BTW, already v3.1 provides an IOP, doesn't it?

Since I wrote the whole documentation from scratch it has a coherent style and - hopefully - doesn't contain multiple descriptions of the same facts. I'm no supporter of books or paintings made by a committee, sorry. But whoever missed anything specific was heard in the past and will be in the future.

d:-)
02-23-2015, 07:45 AM
Post: #29
 BarryMead Senior Member Posts: 416 Joined: Feb 2014
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 09:55 PM)pascal_meheut Wrote:  I read the post and if this is the case, i.e. if the pdf version is not available only to "help" selling the less convenient printed manual then I'm surprised and disappointed to say the least.
This is not how an open-source project should be.
Precicely! I have never heard of any other open source project with CLOSED source documentation.
Perhaps Walter knows of such a project besides the WP-34s project? I'll bet if a poll were taken of those for or against opening up the documentation it would be almost unanimous in favor of OPEN!
02-23-2015, 07:46 AM
Post: #30
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
Some clues are some clues but obviously not the entire story. Anyway, thanks for excavating that post of 2013. As mentioned, however, the project started in 2008 - long before many of those folks who think they must comment and assess now even dared to invest work in something like a WP 34S. Of course, with a successful project, many people like to hop on the bandwagon, for better or for worse.

d:-)
02-23-2015, 07:49 AM
Post: #31
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,957 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-23-2015 07:45 AM)BarryMead Wrote:  I'll bet if a poll were taken of those for or against opening up the documentation it would be almost unanimous in favor of OPEN!

I'll bet if a poll were taken of those for or against free entry to the Akropolis (just for example) it would be almost unanimous in favor of OPEN!

Barry, thanks for that really good joke!

[bitter grin]
02-23-2015, 09:24 AM
Post: #32
 Nigel (UK) Senior Member Posts: 347 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-23-2015 07:46 AM)walter b Wrote:  Some clues are some clues but obviously not the entire story. Anyway, thanks for excavating that post of 2013. As mentioned, however, the project started in 2008 - long before many of those folks who think they must comment and assess now even dared to invest work in something like a WP 34S. Of course, with a successful project, many people like to hop on the bandwagon, for better or for worse.

d:-)

Quick comment: when I first encountered the WP34S project one of my first impressions was the high quality of the documentation, in stark contrast to so many other open source projects. It would be great if Walter's documentation was open, but if that isn't what Walter wants then that is his decision. I hope that the version 3.1 pdf remains freely available; if it does, then modifications to that can be documented in separate files to be read in addition to that pdf. This isn't ideal but it is clearly possible.

Nigel (UK)
02-23-2015, 11:12 AM
Post: #33
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-23-2015 07:49 AM)walter b Wrote:  I'll bet if a poll were taken of those for or against free entry to the Akropolis (just for example) it would be almost unanimous in favor of OPEN!

That's not the correct picture. It's not like demanding free entry to the Akropolis in Athens. It's more like viewing a virtual tour on the Akropolis website, and all you get are outdated pictures of the monument, showing the situation before the restoration. ;-)

Dieter
02-23-2015, 01:27 PM
Post: #34
 Bit Member Posts: 265 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-23-2015 07:35 AM)walter b Wrote:  Now what is it what you want, what you really, really want? If you want a pdf you don't need an index. BTW, already v3.1 provides an IOP, doesn't it?
An index is where you can find any important word or concept you're looking for. That's why search is useful (although search does even more). The IOP in the 34S manual is very useful but it isn't an index as it's commonly understood in the context of a book. The 42S manual has a section called 'Subject Index' starting on page 336 (in the edition I have). It could be even more detailed, but that is an example of an index. I agree with Barry that an index would be very useful in the printed version.

(02-23-2015 07:35 AM)walter b Wrote:  Since I wrote the whole documentation from scratch it has a coherent style and - hopefully - doesn't contain multiple descriptions of the same facts. I'm no supporter of books or paintings made by a committee, sorry.
You and Pauli and Marcus control what gets included in the official codebase and you're responsible for the documentation, so you could decide what gets into the official documentation. Thus there would be no danger of an incoherent style, since anything you don't like simply wouldn't be accepted. There must be something else going on here.
02-23-2015, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 02-23-2015 10:01 PM by Sanjeev Visvanatha.)
Post: #35
 Sanjeev Visvanatha Member Posts: 255 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-23-2015 07:46 AM)walter b Wrote:  Some clues are some clues but obviously not the entire story. Anyway, thanks for excavating that post of 2013. As mentioned, however, the project started in 2008 - long before many of those folks who think they must comment and assess now even dared to invest work in something like a WP 34S. Of course, with a successful project, many people like to hop on the bandwagon, for better or for worse.

Walter,

The work you put into the 34S project as one of its founders is recognized by the community. The work you put into creating the manual is also recognized and appreciated by the community as evidenced by all the praise it has received here in our forums. It is a WP series calculator, after all!

A successful project like the 34S will have people jumping on board, in bandwagon fashion, if you will. The fact that so many good willed people are excited about the creation that you and Pauli started is a testament to project's quality and significance in this community.

You have an agreement, as you stated earlier, that you control the design and UI of the project. No questions asked. You wrote the manual, and control its distribution. Fine and fair.

Can I ask that you consider making a PDF version of each revision of the manual available to the community (34S and 31S)? With PDF creation programs, you can set the document properties so that they cannot be changed, copied, printed etc. You can still have control over the contents, and also limit the manner in which the electronic manual is used. I would suggest you limit printing, but keep the copying feature, as it is useful to be able to copy text for forum discussions.

With the 20B/30B hardware not sold anymore via new distribution channels, the number of new 34S (and 31S) users must be dropping off. It is a niche product, and those in our community would probably still buy a printed manual anyways, because that is what we do - we support the community. Always have, always will.

The project started in 2008 by you and Pauli; started real use on hardware in 2011 (Thank you, Marcus!), and now has grown through more involvement and additional features than its creators probably envisioned. This is a good thing! The project has evolved, and I only ask that you consider making an evolution in the documentation.

Edited to add a thank you to Marcus.

-- Sanjeev Visvanatha
02-24-2015, 08:42 PM
Post: #36
 Thomas Klemm Senior Member Posts: 1,448 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-22-2015 09:55 PM)pascal_meheut Wrote:  I read the post and if this is the case, i.e. if the pdf version is not available only to "help" selling the less convenient printed manual then I'm surprised and disappointed to say the least.
This is not how an open-source project should be.

In the help of your iPhone app you could link to the pdf in Andrew Nikitin's (nsg) WP 34S pocket reference.

(04-14-2014 12:55 AM)nsg Wrote:  It describes 3.2 firmware and does not include those new commands of 3.3 that we all have been so excited about.

(04-14-2014 02:10 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  There are only two new commands for the next firmware release YDON and YDOFF. The set or clear the internal system flag #50. If set Y is displayed in the top line. The default is not.

At least to me this documentation is very useful.

Cheers
Thomas
02-24-2015, 09:02 PM
Post: #37
 pascal_meheut Member Posts: 143 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-24-2015 08:42 PM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:  In the help of your iPhone app you could link to the

Yes, this is something I've discussed with him and the App already points to 2 PDF documents but I was looking for something more "contextual". Converting from Word is complicated.
02-24-2015, 09:04 PM
Post: #38
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,143 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
The change log for the different v3.3 editions as posted previously by Walter, in addition to the new YDON & YDOFF commands, a few others have been renamed :

02-24-2015, 09:41 PM
Post: #39
 Thomas Klemm Senior Member Posts: 1,448 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: WP 34S problem in solving f'(x)=0
(02-24-2015 09:02 PM)pascal_meheut Wrote:  Yes, this is something I've discussed with him and the App already points to 2 PDF documents

I have no idea what the release date of the Manual_wp_34s_3_1.pdf was but the last entry in the release notes is from 30.11.12. Thus it appears to be rather outdated.

However Andrew's WP 34S pocket reference (Firmware V3.2) is from 2014-04-14. Not up to date I know but still probably more accurate.

Then there's a big difference in size: 8.4M vs. 480K. This may be significant using the iPhone.

Quote:but I was looking for something more "contextual".

It's a reference guide. Thus you have to be already a little familiar with the calculator.

Quote:Converting from Word is complicated.

Now I'm afraid you lost me.

Never mind. It was just a suggestion.

Cheers
Thomas
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