In Search of 15C+ ROM image
07-11-2022, 12:02 PM
Post: #41
 redglyph Junior Member Posts: 26 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-10-2022 08:15 PM)ijabbott Wrote:  The MySamBa flash software is avaiilable here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/wp34s/files/FlashTool/ (MySamBa.zip)

The general procedure using the special cable is described in the WP 34S manual. I assume the procedure is the same for the HP 15CLE.

It is possible to improvise without the special cable by using a USB serial TTL3V3 debug cable, something to short pads together (e.g. formed from a paper clip), a very steady hand, and lots of patience. It may require several attempts, and the calculator will have a blank display during the reattempts.

Thanks for the information! I may give it a try.
07-12-2022, 10:59 AM
Post: #42
 dmh Member Posts: 200 Joined: Nov 2020
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image

Where can I find these versions and a description?

(07-10-2022 02:47 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:
(07-08-2022 04:11 AM)Divasson Wrote:  Hi all,

Has anyone implemented the changes in the original HP15c ROM to be able to address 128 registers? Does anyone know what is the required patch? (apparently it did not involve many bytes, and the actual memory seems not to be an issue in the Atmel implementation) I know there have been some discussions about it but cannot find actual details on it.

This is discussed in an earlier archived thread.
https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/...08646.html
Olivier De Smet has produced a rom patch with 224 registers and J F Garnier one with 192 registers.
Hopefully they will make the patches available on the forum.
07-12-2022, 11:16 AM
Post: #43
 Stevetuc Member Posts: 299 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-12-2022 10:59 AM)dmh Wrote:  I followed the link for the patched versions and couldn't actually find the download.

Where can I find these versions and a description?

(07-10-2022 02:47 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  This is discussed in an earlier archived thread.
https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/...08646.html
Olivier De Smet has produced a rom patch with 224 registers and J F Garnier one with 192 registers.
Hopefully they will make the patches available on the forum.
As I mentioned, it is just a discussion. I don't think these versions have yet been posted anywhere.
07-13-2022, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-13-2022 06:45 AM by J-F Garnier.)
Post: #44
 J-F Garnier Senior Member Posts: 664 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-10-2022 02:47 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:
(07-08-2022 04:11 AM)Divasson Wrote:  Has anyone implemented the changes in the original HP15c ROM to be able to address 128 registers? Does anyone know what is the required patch?
This is discussed in an earlier archived thread.
https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/...08646.html
Olivier De Smet has produced a rom patch with 224 registers and J F Garnier one with 192 registers.
Hopefully they will make the patches available on the forum.

Not only Olivier and I. Probably Eric Smith and HrastProg were the first ones to do it around 2006. And don't forget David (SwissMicros). For various (or obvious) reasons none has been published.

So yes, I have a 192-register patched version, that I first built for my private HP-15C emulator (emu15) in 2011.
I then tried the same patch set for the HP-15C emulator for Windows from HP, and fortunately it worked well meaning that the emulator allocates enough RAM space, probably the full 256-register space.
Since the HP emulator and the physical HP-15C LE are very close (even the PSE bug is "correctly" emulated), we can guess that the HP-15C LE also allocates the full 256-register space (it would be a very small gain not to do it, and would complicate the emulator code). But of course this is not guaranteed and must be tested.

Since my 2012 message, I also patched the MEM display to have a nice display for all memory partitions, not only the initial 94-99 allocation.
I didn't release my patched HP-15C XE (eXtended Edition) emulator yet, mainly because:
- the exe file was (still is) copyright HP,
- patching the exe file corrupts the HP digital signature, which may be interpreted as a potential risk.
Now, 10 years later, and as HP-15C LE ROM images have been published here, I think I can release my HP-15C XE emulator and the corresponding patch list, for "research and education purposes only".

Here is the patch list:
Code:
exe          NUT       org 64 reg     ext 192 reg offset       addr      19 - 46        94 - 99 1- memory size 30024        0356:       0c0          040 30036        035f:       310          110 3003A        0361:       350          250 3003C        0362:       090          350 3114A        0be9:       0c0          040 34600        2644:       350          150 34C42        2965:       0c0          040 34C48        2968:       0d0          050 34C54        296e:       0c1          041 34C5A        2971:       0c2          042 34C62        2975:       0c3          043 34DF2        2a3d:       0bb          03b 34E0C        2a4a:       0c0          040 2- MEM display fix 347f6        273f:       31c          3cd       347f8        2740:       361          0dc      347fa        2741:       024          03b      34800        2744:       27e          000     3695e        37f3:       000          1c6      36960        37f4:       000          016      36962        37f5:       000          381      36964        37f6:       000          0cc      36966        37f7:       000          260      36968        37f8:       000          03c      3696a        37f9:       000          2f6       3696c        37fa:       000          360      3696e        37fb:       000          276      36970        37fc:       000          3e0
exe offset is the position in the hp15c.exe file, NUT addr is the address in the NUT CPU ROM space.

Enjoy!

J-F

Attached File(s)
07-15-2022, 10:05 AM
Post: #45
 Divasson Junior Member Posts: 30 Joined: May 2014
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
Thank you so much!!
07-15-2022, 11:29 AM
Post: #46
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,496 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-13-2022 06:42 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Here is the patch list:

Thanks J-F ! I can confirm the patch works on the HP-15C Limited Edition
07-15-2022, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2022 12:31 PM by Stevetuc.)
Post: #47
 Stevetuc Member Posts: 299 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-15-2022 11:29 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:
(07-13-2022 06:42 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Here is the patch list:

Thanks J-F ! I can confirm the patch works on the HP-15C Limited Edition

That's great news and you beat me to it!
Can you give details of the method you used to flash?

I assume you applied the patch bytes directly to the posted final beta rom using a hex editor.

Did you follow the method described here:
https://lithcore.cn/hp12c-modding-assets/
An original (or patched) rom binary file into address 4800-77FF leaving the nut emulator in situ using Mysamba?

Edit: ah, just looked at HP15C- 04-15-11 LATEST.bin in a hex editor and can see the rom is unencrypted and starts at address hex100 so can be directly patched
07-15-2022, 12:04 PM
Post: #48
 dmh Member Posts: 200 Joined: Nov 2020
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
Does it work on any LE firmware version or only the release version?

Ie can it be applied to the version that doesn’t have the PSE bug?

Thanks

(07-15-2022 11:29 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:
(07-13-2022 06:42 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Here is the patch list:

Thanks J-F ! I can confirm the patch works on the HP-15C Limited Edition
07-15-2022, 12:31 PM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2022 12:36 PM by Didier Lachieze.)
Post: #49
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,496 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-15-2022 11:58 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  That's great news and you beat me to it!
Can you give details of the method you used to flash?

The method described in this video which is the same method as the one used for the WP 34S.

(07-15-2022 11:58 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  I assume you applied the patch bytes directly to the posted final beta rom using a hex editor.

Yes.

(07-15-2022 11:58 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Did you follow the method described here:
https://lithcore.cn/hp12c-modding-assets/
An original (for patched) rom binary file into address 4800-77FF leaving the nut emulator in situ using Mysamba?

No, my understanding is that this method is used to patch the full ROM binary into the latest 12C+ (Rev 2) leaving in place the 12C Nut emulator using a JTag interface, and it is not applicable to the 15C LE nor the original 12C+.

(07-15-2022 12:04 PM)dmh Wrote:  Does it work on any LE firmware version or only the release version?

Ie can it be applied to the version that doesn’t have the PSE bug?

Yes it works on any LE firmware, I tested it on both the release version and the beta version without the PSE bug.
07-15-2022, 03:20 PM
Post: #50
 dmh Member Posts: 200 Joined: Nov 2020
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
I can't match the LE release image with the pre-patch values.

What hex editor are you using and is the NUT address offset in the firmware?

I assume you need to do 10 bit values? I can't find an existing utility to do this.

I might be missing something :-)

Thanks

(07-15-2022 12:31 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:
(07-15-2022 11:58 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  That's great news and you beat me to it!
Can you give details of the method you used to flash?

The method described in this video which is the same method as the one used for the WP 34S.

(07-15-2022 11:58 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  I assume you applied the patch bytes directly to the posted final beta rom using a hex editor.

Yes.

(07-15-2022 11:58 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Did you follow the method described here:
https://lithcore.cn/hp12c-modding-assets/
An original (for patched) rom binary file into address 4800-77FF leaving the nut emulator in situ using Mysamba?

No, my understanding is that this method is used to patch the full ROM binary into the latest 12C+ (Rev 2) leaving in place the 12C Nut emulator using a JTag interface, and it is not applicable to the 15C LE nor the original 12C+.

(07-15-2022 12:04 PM)dmh Wrote:  Does it work on any LE firmware version or only the release version?

Ie can it be applied to the version that doesn’t have the PSE bug?

Yes it works on any LE firmware, I tested it on both the release version and the beta version without the PSE bug.
07-15-2022, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2022 04:44 PM by Didier Lachieze.)
Post: #51
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,496 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  I can't match the LE release image with the pre-patch values.

Consider this as a little challenge very rewarding when you solve it and get the patched HP-15C LE to display the upgraded [g] [MEM] configuration.

J-F wisely provided only the patch values and addresses (by far the most difficult part of the upgrade) and let the implementation in the LE firmware to us.

(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  What hex editor are you using and is the NUT address offset in the firmware?

I’m using HxD but any hex editor should do it. In the editor you should be able to find the beginning of the original 15C ROM code.

(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  I assume you need to do 10 bit values? I can't find an existing utility to do this.

Hint n°1: two bytes make a Nut.

(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  I might be missing something :-)

Hint n°2: Gulliver’s Travels
07-16-2022, 07:02 AM
Post: #52
 dmh Member Posts: 200 Joined: Nov 2020
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
Haha - got it ;-)

Love the second clue.

I went through something like this a while back with the 48G ROM, does your head in a bit :-)

Thanks!

(07-15-2022 04:00 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:
(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  I can't match the LE release image with the pre-patch values.

Consider this as a little challenge very rewarding when you solve it and get the patched HP-15C LE to display the upgraded [g] [MEM] configuration.

J-F wisely provided only the patch values and addresses (by far the most difficult part of the upgrade) and let the implementation in the LE firmware to us.

(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  What hex editor are you using and is the NUT address offset in the firmware?

I’m using HxD but any hex editor should do it. In the editor you should be able to find the beginning of the original 15C ROM code.

(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  I assume you need to do 10 bit values? I can't find an existing utility to do this.

Hint n°1: two bytes make a Nut.

(07-15-2022 03:20 PM)dmh Wrote:  I might be missing something :-)

Hint n°2: Gulliver’s Travels
07-16-2022, 12:48 PM
Post: #53
 tgwell2 Junior Member Posts: 10 Joined: May 2022
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
Given all this information, I've got to ask... Does anyone have an overlay template or solution for the voyagers? My 12C+ with the 15C FW is working really nicely.
07-17-2022, 07:43 AM
Post: #54
 J-F Garnier Senior Member Posts: 664 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-15-2022 10:05 AM)Divasson Wrote:  Thank you so much!!

(07-15-2022 11:29 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  Thanks J-F ! I can confirm the patch works on the HP-15C Limited Edition

Thanks to the HP-15C LE code writer, who implemented enough RAM registers, not only the original 64 registers.

And also thanks to Eric Smith, who extracted the 15C ROM image long ago, without him there would be no HP-15C LE. Yes there is an indubitable proof that the 15C LE uses the ROM from nonpareil.
I will not disclose more about it, you can try to find the proof by yourself, but be warned that it's a tough challenge!

Maybe Eric will someday comment and maybe tell us more about the HP-15C LE story.
After all, this is history now, HP is no more in the calculator business and a re-introduction of this machine by the HP licensee is unlikely.

J-F
07-17-2022, 08:46 AM
Post: #55
 redglyph Junior Member Posts: 26 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-17-2022 07:43 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Maybe Eric will someday comment and maybe tell us more about the HP-15C LE story.
After all, this is history now, HP is no more in the calculator business and a re-introduction of this machine by the HP licensee is unlikely.

J-F

More about the history of those great calculators is always welcome, indeed, even for later anniversary emulators! I'm wondering why HP decided this make this come back. I know there was a lot of fans asking for it and long petition threads, did people at HP thought there was a potential profit, or are there still a few engineers there who wanted to revive it for a while?

History about the technical parts would be interesting too.

I also doubt they'd produce something similar again. I love the HP-15C, but these days it's only interesting to people who have the nostalgia of old calculators and who like the RPN system. I have the impression that people would rather pay a little more for a graphic calculator like an HP Prime which is easier to handle and offer more functionality, even if the quality is not the same. Or, if they don't need so much complexity, a simpler one like the HP-35S. It seems there isn't enough demand to maintain a large catalogue of calculators anymore. Laptops and smartphones are probably partly to blame.
07-17-2022, 02:57 PM
Post: #56
 John Keith Senior Member Posts: 795 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-17-2022 08:46 AM)redglyph Wrote:  ... I love the HP-15C, but these days it's only interesting to people who have the nostalgia of old calculators and who like the RPN system. I have the impression that people would rather pay a little more for a graphic calculator like an HP Prime which is easier to handle and offer more functionality, even if the quality is not the same. Or, if they don't need so much complexity, a simpler one like the HP-35S. It seems there isn't enough demand to maintain a large catalogue of calculators anymore. Laptops and smartphones are probably partly to blame.

It's not just about nostalgia, but also ease of use and productivity. The Prime is fast and powerful, but IMHO not as well suited to interactive exploratory problem solving compared to RPN and RPL calculators. Ironically, if no more RPN calculators are made, the only options will be our laptops, tablets and smartphones.
07-17-2022, 06:03 PM
Post: #57
 Divasson Junior Member Posts: 30 Joined: May 2014
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
Patch working perfectly. Now trying to see the effective limits of the memory. For now I have created 2 8x8 matrixes without error - I plan to play with them (or try to use a 8x8 complex matrix).

Entering more than 1000 program lines can also be done, but it will be quite cumbersome...but at least, we can stop choosing the programs - we are only limited by the number of labels available.

I have set for 30 registers for data and 163 for programs (up to 1141 steps) and matrices.

If it wasn't for the Gulliver travels hint, I would have never found the solution...Thank you to you both!!
07-17-2022, 09:05 PM
Post: #58
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,496 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-17-2022 06:03 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Patch working perfectly.
[…]
If it wasn't for the Gulliver travels hint, I would have never found the solution...Thank you to you both!!

Cool !
07-18-2022, 05:18 AM
Post: #59
 Stevetuc Member Posts: 299 Joined: Jan 2014
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-02-2022 02:16 PM)Katie Wasserman Wrote:  Here's are the most recent 12C binaries that I have:

12C SAM4 version from 2015

12C+ from 2011

Here's the HP12C Development kit for the 12C+. It has the source for a basic calculator and all the needed interface code that you can use to roll your own:

12C+ Development Kit

Thanks for posting these. I was able to find the hp12c nut firmware embedded in the SAM4 version (at location 0X80C) but could not in the 12C+ version. Seems like it's obfuscated in that case?
07-18-2022, 07:04 AM
Post: #60
 redglyph Junior Member Posts: 26 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: In Search of 15C+ ROM image
(07-17-2022 02:57 PM)John Keith Wrote:  It's not just about nostalgia, but also ease of use and productivity. The Prime is fast and powerful, but IMHO not as well suited to interactive exploratory problem solving compared to RPN and RPL calculators. Ironically, if no more RPN calculators are made, the only options will be our laptops, tablets and smartphones.

It's true that it seems to be student-focused. I took the only available example but I don't own it and it wouldn't be my first choice in "recent" calculators. To be honest I'm not taking my HP at work, most of the time I'm using a calculator app on my desktop or laptop - RPN of course.

The HP-15C has the size in its favour, and they didn't sacrifice the access to the functions to achieve that, I mean you don't have to access everything through menus. But for me the HP-48 is easier to use, with its unlimited stack, clear matrix operations and readable programs. That series would be my first choice today for student or professional use, but I don't know if others feel the same, maybe it's just personal preference (and the HP-15 isn't far behind). Anyway I'm not convinced they'd make another one of those either.
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