News from Swiss Micros

[Peet]

Until the announcement I was convinced the may 2021 News was planed as a "DM43" based on the WP firmware but the announcement doesn't look like it.

Quote:A keystroke programmable calculator based on a saturn cpu emulation, entry level rpn calculator with direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures

That doesn't make much sense to me. Almost only a DM42 light (who maybe acts as a DM15pro) fits to this. But I don't understand the sense of the Saturn emulation.

[Dave Britten]

My memory is a bit hazy, but isn't there a pure-Saturn version of the 49g/50g ROM for use with emulators?

[Steve Simpkin]

(05-31-2021 08:17 AM)Peet Wrote:  Until the announcement I was convinced the may 2021 News was planed as a "DM43" based on the WP firmware but the announcement doesn't look like it.

Quote:A keystroke programmable calculator based on a saturn cpu emulation, entry level rpn calculator with direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures

That doesn't make much sense to me. Almost only a DM42 light (who maybe acts as a DM15pro) fits to this. But I don't understand the sense of the Saturn emulation.

Yes the more I think about this the HP-32SII is the closest match I can think of that fits all of the talking points. They already have the hardware for the Pioneer form factor and it's key layout. Just silkscreen on new key and background labels and the hardware is done. I don't know how they would get around the copyright of the HP-32SII firmware though. Maybe they licensed it from HP? Just guessing like everyone else.

[Thomas Okken]

There's no point in emulating the Saturn except to allow HP ROM images to run, and the only HP ROM images that are available for download are for the RPL machines. And none of them could be preinstalled legally...

[Peet]

(05-31-2021 11:34 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  My memory is a bit hazy, but isn't there a pure-Saturn version of the 49g/50g ROM for use with emulators?

I don't even want to imagine how a 50g with direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures looks like.

[Eric Rechlin]

(05-31-2021 11:34 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  My memory is a bit hazy, but isn't there a pure-Saturn version of the 49g/50g ROM for use with emulators?

The 50g ROM *is* pure Saturn, just with a few Saturn+ instructions patched into it (post compilation -- to make a 50g ROM you compile a pure Saturn ROM that can actually run on the original 49G, and then run a script to patch a few bytes here and there to swap in Saturn+ instructions and patch the checksums so it validates, to optimize it for the 50g's Saturnator, and then concatenate on the Saturnator/KinpoOS blob).

It might not make sense for a hypothetical "DM50" to simulate the 50g's hardware and run the whole 50g firmware including the Saturnator with KinpoOS, because that's additional overhead. Instead I think it would make more sense to just use a new Saturn emulator (perhaps even supporting the same Saturn+ instructions) that would run on the DM50 OS and emulate the 50g/49g+/48gII/49G.

I still see zero reason for SwissMicros to release a (presumably emulated) Saturn-based platform unless it is to recreate an RPL model, because for the RPN models, a much better user experience (faster operation and fewer quirks) would be provided by simply adapting code from either the WP 34S or Free42 to make a clean-slate simulation of any RPN model rather than trying to emulate an HP ROM, especially when there is no clear legal right to use an HP ROM. Also, I highly doubt that SwissMicros would be able to get through the bureaucracy of HP Legal (which is far more difficult than it used to be) to get a piece of paper that unambiguously says they have the right to use the HP ROM. The Saturn-based models (which for the most part means the Pioneer series) are not like the Voyager series where the ROM is not actually under any copyright, which is why they have no problem with the existing DM machines. And only for the RPL models does it seem like it might be worth it to have buyers go through the gymnastics of manually obtaining and installing a ROM.

[Marco Polo]

(05-31-2021 03:14 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  

(05-31-2021 11:34 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  My memory is a bit hazy, but isn't there a pure-Saturn version of the 49g/50g ROM for use with emulators?

The 50g ROM *is* pure Saturn, just with a few Saturn+ instructions patched into it (post compilation -- to make a 50g ROM you compile a pure Saturn ROM that can actually run on the original 49G, and then run a script to patch a few bytes here and there to swap in Saturn+ instructions and patch the checksums so it validates, to optimize it for the 50g's Saturnator, and then concatenate on the Saturnator/KinpoOS blob).

It might not make sense for a hypothetical "DM50" to simulate the 50g's hardware and run the whole 50g firmware including the Saturnator with KinpoOS, because that's additional overhead. Instead I think it would make more sense to just use a new Saturn emulator (perhaps even supporting the same Saturn+ instructions) that would run on the DM50 OS and emulate the 50g/49g+/48gII/49G.

I still see zero reason for SwissMicros to release a (presumably emulated) Saturn-based platform unless it is to recreate an RPL model, because for the RPN models, a much better user experience (faster operation and fewer quirks) would be provided by simply adapting code from either the WP 34S or Free42 to make a clean-slate simulation of any RPN model rather than trying to emulate an HP ROM, especially when there is no clear legal right to use an HP ROM. Also, I highly doubt that SwissMicros would be able to get through the bureaucracy of HP Legal (which is far more difficult than it used to be) to get a piece of paper that unambiguously says they have the right to use the HP ROM. The Saturn-based models (which for the most part means the Pioneer series) are not like the Voyager series where the ROM is not actually under any copyright, which is why they have no problem with the existing DM machines. And only for the RPL models does it seem like it might be worth it to have buyers go through the gymnastics of manually obtaining and installing a ROM.

What about a dedicated version of EMU48(+) emulation core running on the future SM platform?
It might avoid reinventing the wheel and allow to directly port the EMU stat file and, for 48 series, the Port2 file.

IMHO, i'd rather prefer to have a DM48 instead a DM50, with reference to keyboard layout.

[John Keith]

(05-31-2021 03:28 PM)Marco Polo Wrote:  What about a dedicated version of EMU48(+) emulation core running on the future SM platform?
It might avoid reinventing the wheel and allow to directly port the EMU stat file and, for 48 series, the Port2 file.

IMHO, i'd rather prefer to have a DM48 instead a DM50, with reference to keyboard layout.

Ideally (from my perspective) the HP-48S color scheme, the 48G keyboard layout and full 50g functionality.

EMU48 for Android is already compiled for ARM processors, it should be fairly easy to adapt to any processor using a compatible ARM core. I have been told that the processor used in the DM42 does not have adequate memory for a proposed DM50, so a new processor/RAM/flash would be necessary anyway.

[Dave Britten]

(05-31-2021 03:14 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  I still see zero reason for SwissMicros to release a (presumably emulated) Saturn-based platform unless it is to recreate an RPL model, because for the RPN models, a much better user experience (faster operation and fewer quirks) would be provided by simply adapting code from either the WP 34S or Free42 to make a clean-slate simulation of any RPN model rather than trying to emulate an HP ROM, especially when there is no clear legal right to use an HP ROM.

Well we haven't ruled out the possibility of creating a DM71, and giving it a simple RPN firmware so it can at least be usable "out of the box".

DM50 seems most likely at this point (though I'd prefer a DM48 myself).

[The Shadow]

(05-31-2021 04:00 PM)John Keith Wrote:  Ideally (from my perspective) the HP-48S color scheme, the 48G keyboard layout and full 50g functionality.

Oh my goodness that would be amazing! I loved my 48SX to pieces, but it would be hard to part with 50g's functions.

I have to agree that I can't even imagine how it would work without "complex menus", though.

[Luigi Vampa]

I thank all the green berets in this forum for their quality opinions in order to try to solve Michael's latest conundrum. Summing up, a DM48/49/50 seems to be a plausible answer, though it wouldn't qualify as 'entry level', would it?

[David Hayden]

I wonder if they're going further back in time. The HP processors seem to have evolved over time, culminating in the Saturn. So how hard would it be to port, say, the Woodstock ROMs to Saturn? I know the address size is smaller and that can be a real killer in any port, but it might be the shortest path to a new Woodstock (or other pre-41C calc).

Dave

[3298]

Oh right, I forgot about the Emu48-compatible ROM. There's a little more ARM code in the 50g than just the Saturnator and the Kinpo OS it runs on, but ehh - who owns a StreamSmart device anyway.
However, I still believe that porting newRPL is still the easier option. It may need a license workaround, but after Free42 on the DM42 they should have sufficient experience with that. No, the new product can't be a DM50 or DM48 or however you would call it.

[Eddie W. Shore]

If they are going on entry level, I think David could be on the right track. I'm guessing the HP 25C, with the L.R. command, or the 34C (which has a solver and integration).

[ijabbott]

I don't think the DM42's SoC has enough resources (and the DM42 platform doesn't have enough buttons) to emulate a 50g, but something in the STM32L4+ series such as STM32L4R9AI, STM32L4R9VI or STM32L4R9ZI should have enough oomph. Those all have 640 KiB RAM (which should be enough for anybody), and 2 MiB flash.

[toml_12953]

All this speculation! It won't get us anywhere. We'll just have to wait until Michael or someone official actually announces something.

[Sylvain Cote]

Michael Steinmann of SwissMicros video says ...

• Entry level calculator
• RPN operation
• Keystroke programmable
• Direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures
• Based on Saturn CPU emulation
• Past concept stage, so possibly at prototype or alpha level
• a new model is on the horizon ... and more ...
  

This is

• not a 71B
• not a RPL machine
• probably not running pre-1983 ROM's (Saturn CPU is different from previous generation CPU)
• probably not running the Pionner ROM's (direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures)
  

My current take is, this is running an SM from ground up calculator implementation. Why using Saturn CPU emulation if that is the case, this is anyone guess.
Sylvain
PS: the "and more ..." comment at the end seems to indicate that they will be several calculators made on this new hardware/software platform.

[Luigi Vampa]

(05-31-2021 06:32 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  All this speculation! It won't get us anywhere. We'll just have to wait until Michael or someone official actually announces something.

... you are right, but it's all part of the fun :O)

[Marco Polo]

(05-31-2021 05:11 PM)3298 Wrote:  Oh right, I forgot about the Emu48-compatible ROM. There's a little more ARM code in the 50g than just the Saturnator and the Kinpo OS it runs on, but ehh - who owns a StreamSmart device anyway.
However, I still believe that porting newRPL is still the easier option. It may need a license workaround, but after Free42 on the DM42 they should have sufficient experience with that. No, the new product can't be a DM50 or DM48 or however you would call it.

AFAIK, NEWRPL does not rely upon Saturn.
It should run on 50g in Arm native mode.

[3298]

(06-01-2021 05:19 AM)Marco Polo Wrote:  AFAIK, NEWRPL does not rely upon Saturn.
It should run on 50g in Arm native mode.

Exactly. That's how we know they are not working on a newRPL-based machine.