HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
06-21-2020, 08:27 AM
Post: #1
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
I would like to use Turbo pascal on my HP 110 Portable Plus.

On the one hand it offers a small and capable editor, on the other hand it is a nice tool for developing small programs.

Turbo Pascal evolved from generic CP/M-80, CP/M-86, MS-DOS systems to versions tailored specifically for PC-DOS and the IBM PC hardware.
The TINST program reflects this development - the early versions offered many predefined terminal configurations and allowed defining individual terminal configurations.
The early MS-DOS version provided the same terminal configuration options as the CP/M versions.
The later PC-DOS versions only provided a handful of predefined screen definitions specific for the IBM PC.

I am looking for the last version of Turbo pascal for generic MS-DOS systems.

All archives in the internet seem to have 3.0, 3.01, 3.02 for PC-DOS only.
These versions incorporate direct access to screen memory and similar PC specific features.
They will not work on a generic MS-DOS 2 or 3 system like the HP 110 or the HP 150.
I know that such a version existed for the HP 150 - it was also distributed by HP and could be adapted e.g. to the HP 110.

So: does someone have a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x or at least 2.x for MS-DOS which he could make available?

Martin

PS: forgive me for cross-posting this inquiry also in groups.io for vintage HP computers.
06-21-2020, 12:17 PM
Post: #2
 johanw Member Posts: 102 Joined: Nov 2019
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
I was not aware there were different 3.0x versions for different hardware. I used version 3 up to 5 when I studied, but always on PC hardware so the floppies with version 5 I must have somewhere would contain, if they are still readable, the IBM compatible version.

But the old Turbo Pascal versions have been made available as source code. I looked at it because they always said Turbo Pascal was written in Turbo Pascal. Well, sort of. All methods were in Pascal, but they all contained only embedded assembler code so porting it to a different environment would have been a very tedious task.
06-21-2020, 12:48 PM
Post: #3
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 2,328 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-21-2020 08:27 AM)Martin Hepperle Wrote:  I would like to use Turbo pascal on my HP 110 Portable Plus.

On the one hand it offers a small and capable editor, on the other hand it is a nice tool for developing small programs.

Turbo Pascal evolved from generic CP/M-80, CP/M-86, MS-DOS systems to versions tailored specifically for PC-DOS and the IBM PC hardware.
The TINST program reflects this development - the early versions offered many predefined terminal configurations and allowed defining individual terminal configurations.
The early MS-DOS version provided the same terminal configuration options as the CP/M versions.
The later PC-DOS versions only provided a handful of predefined screen definitions specific for the IBM PC.

I am looking for the last version of Turbo pascal for generic MS-DOS systems.

All archives in the internet seem to have 3.0, 3.01, 3.02 for PC-DOS only.
These versions incorporate direct access to screen memory and similar PC specific features.
They will not work on a generic MS-DOS 2 or 3 system like the HP 110 or the HP 150.
I know that such a version existed for the HP 150 - it was also distributed by HP and could be adapted e.g. to the HP 110.

So: does someone have a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x or at least 2.x for MS-DOS which he could make available?

Martin

PS: forgive me for cross-posting this inquiry also in groups.io for vintage HP computers.

Some of our usual contributors could possibly still have something interesting for you.

Greetings,
Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
06-21-2020, 03:39 PM
Post: #4
 Dave Frederickson Senior Member Posts: 2,067 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-21-2020 08:27 AM)Martin Hepperle Wrote:  So: does someone have a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x or at least 2.x for MS-DOS which he could make available?

Hi Martin,

There're early versions here.
https://winworldpc.com/product/turbo-pascal/2x

Dave
06-21-2020, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 06-21-2020 06:00 PM by Martin Hepperle.)
Post: #5
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
thank you for your replies ... all the versions I have seen and downloaded so far have been the PC-DOS version (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 3.01, 3.02), which do not allow configuring the terminal control sequences (e.g. for cursor positioning) - only the keyboard abbreviations.
They are for PC-DOS respectively IBM-PC compatibles and directly access the display memory. Therefore, they are working only on a true IBM compatible with monochrome or color graphics adapter.

I guess that only a small quantity of the generic MS-DOS version was sold - for example by Hal Goldstein of "Portable Paper" fame. Borland obviously offered them configured for the HP 150.
06-21-2020, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 06-21-2020 06:23 PM by Dave Frederickson.)
Post: #6
 Dave Frederickson Senior Member Posts: 2,067 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Perhaps try contacting Hal. He is a member of the forum.

Edit:
Hal also distributed TP version 4 for the Vectra Portable. You might expand your search to include that version.
06-21-2020, 06:53 PM
Post: #7
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 2,328 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Here you can find a 3.02 MS-DOS version.
This is TINST.MSG content (looks like keys and screen are configurable):

Code:
 1                        TURBO Pascal installation menu. 2                  Choose installation item from the following: 3  4     [S]creen type |  [C]ommand installation  |  [M]sg file path  |  [Q]uit 5  6                              Enter S, C, M or Q: 10 Duplicate definition. Error occurred between question 11 Commands starting with the same letter must have the same length.    Error occurred between question 12 The total maximum length of commands are execeeded 13  -> 14 CURSOR MOVEMENTS: 20  Character left                21    Alternative                 22  Character right               23  Word left                     24  Word right                    25  Line up                       26  Line down                     27  Scroll down                   28  Scroll up                     29  Page up                       30  Page down                     31  To left on line               32  To right on line              33  To top of page                34  To bottom of page             35  To top of file                36  To end of file                37  To begining of block          38  To end of block               39  To last cursor position       15 INSERT & DELETE: 40  Insert mode on/off            41  Insert line                   42  Delete line                   43  Delete to end of line         44  Delete right word             45  Delete character under cursor 46  Delete left character         47    Alternative                 16 BLOCK COMMANDS: 48  Mark block begin              49  Mark block end                50  Mark single word              51  Hide/display block            52  Copy block                    53  Move block                    54  Delete block                  55  Read block from disk          56  Write block to disk           17 MISC. EDITING COMMANDS:   57  End edit                      58  Tab                           59  Auto tab on/off               60  Restore line                  61  Find                          62  Find & replace                63  Repeat last find              64  Control character prefix      101 Nothing  ^Q: Quit, ^R: Last page, ^C: Next page, <RETURN>: Select terminal:  Wait Sorting Definitions  Change to:  (Y/N)?   y  n  Text file name:  Command:  Numeric entry expected  Legal range is   , please re-enter:   Choose one of the following terminals:  None of the above   ( Max. 20 Characters )  Delete a definition ( Max. 20 Characters )  Which terminal? (Enter no. or ^Q to exit):   Delete terminal? (Enter no. or ^Q to exit):  Do you want to modify this definition before installation?   Terminal type:  Send an initialization string to the terminal?  Initializaion defined as a command string? (No = a file)  Send a reset string to the terminal  Reset defined as a command? (No = a file)  CURSOR LEAD-IN command:   CURSOR POSITIONING COMMAND to send between line and column:     CURSOR POSITIONING COMMAND to send after both line and column:  Column first  OFFSET to add to LINE:    OFFSET to add to COLUMN:  Binary address  Number of ASCII digits (2 or 3):   CLEAR SCREEN command:   Does CLEAR SCREEN also HOME cursor  HOME command:   DELETE LINE command:   INSERT LINE command:   ERASE TO END OF LINE command:  START HIGHLIGHTING command:    END HIGHLIGHTING command:      Number of rows (lines) on your screen:   Number of columns on your screen:        Delay after CURSOR ADDRESS (0-255 ms):                       Delay after CLEAR, DELETE and INSERT (0-255 ms):             Delay after ERASE TO END OF LINE and HIGHLIGHT (0-255 ms):   Is this definition correct?                      Hardware dependent information  Operating frequency of your microprocessor in MHz (for delays): 200 Choose one of the following displays: 201 Which display? (Enter no. or ^Q to exit):  202 Default display mode 203 Monochrome display 204 Color display 80x25 205 Color display 40x25 206 b/w   display 80x25 207 b/w   display 40x25 208 Does your screen blink when the text scrolls 210 MSG file path and name (eg. A:\TURBO.MSG) 

Greetings,
Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
06-21-2020, 07:12 PM
Post: #8
 ijabbott Senior Member Posts: 1,021 Joined: Jul 2015
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-21-2020 05:58 PM)Martin Hepperle Wrote:  thank you for your replies ... all the versions I have seen and downloaded so far have been the PC-DOS version (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 3.01, 3.02), which do not allow configuring the terminal control sequences (e.g. for cursor positioning) - only the keyboard abbreviations.
They are for PC-DOS respectively IBM-PC compatibles and directly access the display memory. Therefore, they are working only on a true IBM compatible with monochrome or color graphics adapter.

Maybe the NEC APC or Siemens PC-D versions of Turbo Pascal 3.01A would work?

— Ian Abbott
06-21-2020, 09:06 PM (This post was last modified: 06-21-2020 09:29 PM by Martin Hepperle.)
Post: #9
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Dear all,

as it often is the case - just 5 minutes (nah, more like 15 hours) after asking, I finally found a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.00B for generic MS-DOS machines.
I have downloaded about 20 different TP archives (often the same content, just repackaged) and only one of them was the MS-DOS variant.
Adapted with the installer program, it now runs fine on the Portable Plus.
Because the installation is somewhat tedious, I attach the installed version, ready to run.
As is, it will not run on the 110 Portable - you must use TINST to change the dimensions according to the smaller screen.
(see The Portable Paper, January 1986).

Thank you all for your replies and suggestions,

Martin

PS: this version came with TINST definitions for the HP 150 - I replaced them with the parameters for the Portable Plus. The original disk can be downloaded here:
https://archive.org/details/borlandturbopascal3.01985

Attached File(s)
Turbo Pascal 3.00B - HP Portable Plus.zip (Size: 59.4 KB / Downloads: 16)
06-22-2020, 07:16 AM
Post: #10
 J-F Garnier Senior Member Posts: 549 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Many thanks, Martin, for sharing this great finding.
When I will have some time (and when I will have fixed -again- the dead battery) I will put it in a 27C512 EPROM.
Then I will have to remember how to program with TP3...

J-F
06-22-2020, 11:29 AM
Post: #11
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-22-2020 07:16 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Many thanks, Martin, for sharing this great finding.
When I will have some time (and when I will have fixed -again- the dead battery) I will put it in a 27C512 EPROM.
Then I will have to remember how to program with TP3...

J-F

The battery could also be replaced with a power supply, if your have a 6V one available.
Otherwise: I used these Cyclon/Hawker 2V cells to replace the battery about 2 years ago and try to regularly recharge them to keep them in good health.
[It is always the question whether it is worth to replace batteries which will die a natural death 3-5 years later. I now almost follow a regular "charging plan" with all those batteries for HP-IL printer and cassette, Voltmeter, Portables, Thinkjets, 9114s, what else...]

The nice thing is that Turbo Pascal needs less than 64 KB disk space - you can even leave off the error messages.
And due to this "size", the editor starts up quite fast and can be used for all kind of text file editing.

I also have Turbo-C running on the Portable Plus, but only the command line version TCC with MAKE and LINK and the small memory libraries. The GUI/IDE does not work because of the direct screen memory access.
While Turbo Pascal programs are limited to 64 KB (still enough for many small to medium size tools) Turbo-C programs can be larger, depending on memory model.

My plan is to make a small Turbo Pascal include file of HP-IL routines for talking to e.g. the 3468 Voltmeter or 3421 Data Acquisition box. I have done that for Turbo C, but the development cycle is much slower than with Turbo Pascal.

Let us know, when you have an EPROM image ready - I also would like to burn one (a single half-bank EPSOM should be enough). I have just re-read the EPROM burning manuals and experimented bit with EDISK.SYS, but not really created something.

Martin
06-23-2020, 06:17 PM
Post: #12
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
In the meantime I found that TURBO.COM can be reduced in size by a about 3 KB by converting it first to TURBO.EXE (using COMTOEXE.EXE) and then applying LZ.EXE to the result.

These two tools can be found on the 1991 Portable Paper subscriber disk.
They do not work on the Portable, so this compression has to take place on another MS-DOS computer.

If EPROM or EDISK space is limited, this can be helpful. The resulting program still starts rapidly and runs without problems.

I have also experimented with the Portable Plus and its HP-IL interrupt. No problems identifying devices and reading the 3468 voltmeter and print to the 82162 printer. However, I am having problems to change the voltmeter settings or display a message. It seems to ignore my output (while the printer accepts it). So I have to re-read the HP-IL documentation concerning addressing and frame sequence. Maybe I need to send a REMOTE command first.
06-24-2020, 07:30 AM
Post: #13
 Karl-Ludwig Butte Member Posts: 107 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Dear All,

thank you for this thread, the discussion and the links. Now I got back Turbo Pascal on my old MS-DOS system and a lot of memories of times Long past. I found Turbo C, too, but I couldn't find Turbo Assembler for MS-DOS.

Does anyone know where I can get Turbo Assembler?

Thank you very much in Advance.

Best regards

Karl
06-24-2020, 07:54 AM
Post: #14
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Maybe have a look here:

https://winworldpc.com/product/turbo-assembler/5x

Viel Spass,
Martin
06-24-2020, 01:00 PM
Post: #15
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 2,328 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-24-2020 07:54 AM)Martin Hepperle Wrote:  Maybe have a look here:

https://winworldpc.com/product/turbo-assembler/5x

Viel Spass,
Martin

Version 3 is here!

Greetings,
Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
06-24-2020, 03:45 PM
Post: #16
 Dave Frederickson Senior Member Posts: 2,067 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-24-2020 07:30 AM)Karl-Ludwig Butte Wrote:  Does anyone know where I can get Turbo Assembler?

I have TASM 2.5 along with Turbo Debugger and Turbo Profiler. Came with Borland C++ 2.0.

Dave
06-25-2020, 09:56 AM
Post: #17
 Karl-Ludwig Butte Member Posts: 107 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Hello Martin & Dave,

thank you very much for your response. My first attempt to download from the link Martin sent was unsuccessfull, but the second try succeeded.

Best regards and stay healthy

Karl
06-25-2020, 10:07 AM
Post: #18
 J-F Garnier Senior Member Posts: 549 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
(06-23-2020 06:17 PM)Martin Hepperle Wrote:  I have also experimented with the Portable Plus and its HP-IL interrupt. No problems identifying devices and reading the 3468 voltmeter and print to the 82162 printer. However, I am having problems to change the voltmeter settings or display a message. It seems to ignore my output (while the printer accepts it). So I have to re-read the HP-IL documentation concerning addressing and frame sequence. Maybe I need to send a REMOTE command first.

Yes, you must send a REN (Remote Enable) command before being able to send commands to the 3468.
The remote state will be effective when you will then send a command (REN enables the remote mode, but doesn't switch to remote state), and the RMT indicator will appear on the display.

J-F
06-25-2020, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 06-25-2020 06:55 PM by Martin Hepperle.)
Post: #19
 Martin Hepperle Senior Member Posts: 302 Joined: May 2014
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Jean-Francois,

thank you for your reply - with your additional comments on terminating commands with CR/LF I now modified my code to use CR/LF but NOT to set the END bit and this combination worked.

In my previous tests I had already experimented with the terminator CR/LF but also applied the END bit to the last (LF) character and this obviously confused the 3468.

Without the END bit it works. Now I can refine my Pascal library to recreate a command syntax similar to the HP 71 HP-IL interface.

Thank you for your help,
Martin
12-19-2020, 03:44 PM
Post: #20
 Dave Frederickson Senior Member Posts: 2,067 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP 110, 150: Looking for Turbo Pascal Version 3.02 for MS-DOS (not PC-DOS/IBM PC)
Here are links to ROM images for Turbo Pascal 3.01A for MS-DOS and 3.02A for PC-DOS.