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Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
07-03-2018, 03:59 AM
Post: #1
Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Hi all,

I have been experimenting transferring files between my modern Pc and HP-71b after reading what seems like hundreds to posts. They have all been extremely helpful and I can now transfer programs (text listings) and binary programs & lex files (emu71 to HP82164A and then to HP-71b, then save to HP82161A) reliably. I know a Pil-box is the way forward but I love the old gear and the challenge it presents.

I would now like transfer programs from my PC or HP-71b to the HP-75c. The 75c seems to lack the HP-IL functionality (I have no roms) of the 71b (i.e. COPY:rs232...., also commands in S2T http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...ead=158731, SENDIO etc)

I have started to think the best to get programs (not lex) from the PC to the 75c is to use the HP82164A:RS232 interface and the 71b via text files. I can send the ascii listing via a terminal (RealTerm) to the 71b with no problem and capture it with the s2t program but this is then in TXT71 I assume? I note there appears to be TXT75/BAS75 files and TXT71/BAS71 files and emu71 cannot work with TXT75/BAS75 for obvious reasons? Can this be done?

I hope the above is clear (as mud Smile). Any help much appreciated.

Richard
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07-03-2018, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2018 07:22 AM by J-F Garnier.)
Post: #2
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
One way is to import the program as a text file to the HP-71 (S2T without TRANSFORM), save the text file to mass storage, get it into the HP-75 (will be a 'LIF1' file) and finally TRANSFORM it INTO BASIC.

J-F
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07-03-2018, 08:33 AM
Post: #3
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-03-2018 07:22 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  One way is to import the program as a text file to the HP-71 (S2T without TRANSFORM), save the text file to mass storage, get it into the HP-75 (will be a 'LIF1' file) and finally TRANSFORM it INTO BASIC.

J-F

Thanks so much for the reply. I am just trying that now. My steps were:

- Get the actual BASIC listing from emu71 via PLIST to DOSLINK.
- Send to HP-71 using Realterm terminal program and s2t on HP=71. Transfom fails of course, I need to delete the transform line obviously.
- Plug HP-75c into loop, copy text from tape to 75c.

This all works fine but whe I list the files on the 75c via "cat" the file is shown as TYPE "I" ? It is not "T" or "TEXT" ?

I cannot transform it into basic without seeing "ERROR bad statement" ?

Any ideas?

Regards
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07-03-2018, 09:27 AM
Post: #4
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-03-2018 08:33 AM)coitboy2000 Wrote:  
(07-03-2018 07:22 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  One way is to import the program as a text file to the HP-71 (S2T without TRANSFORM), save the text file to mass storage, get it into the HP-75 (will be a 'LIF1' file) and finally TRANSFORM it INTO BASIC.

J-F

Thanks so much for the reply. I am just trying that now. My steps were:

- Get the actual BASIC listing from emu71 via PLIST to DOSLINK.
- Send to HP-71 using Realterm terminal program and s2t on HP=71. Transfom fails of course, I need to delete the transform line obviously.
- Plug HP-75c into loop, copy text from tape to 75c.

This all works fine but whe I list the files on the 75c via "cat" the file is shown as TYPE "I" ? It is not "T" or "TEXT" ?

I cannot transform it into basic without seeing "ERROR bad statement" ?

Any ideas?

Regards

I have worked it. When in doubt read the manual Smile "I' are interchange files and the reason I was having issues is that the listing I transferred was missing the line numbers, hence the transform error.
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07-03-2018, 01:19 PM
Post: #5
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Richard,

Welcome to the small but still very active world of '71B users (and even smaller and somewhat less active world of 75C users). Indeed using the original hardware is both fun and challenging, but as you've concluded, the PIL-Box is the way to go. Without a PIL-Box, getting stuff in and out of the machine is the challenge, but with it, it becomes quick and easy to explore all the other possible challenges.

You're about to find out something which is probably a little unexpected: the 71B and 75C use very different dialects of BASIC, and there are lots of differences in many areas.

Coming from a 75, the 71 seems a bit smaller and similar to use, though more flexible and easier to program; the 75 is much faster for math, but slower for I/O.

Coming from a 71, the 75 seems a lot larger, a lot less flexible, requires tedious syntax for files and I/O, and is just more 'crude' lacking system features such as subprograms, an assembler, etc.

But both are still great machines and still fun to explore. Please join in and share your explorations, questions and discoveries.

--Bob Prosperi
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07-03-2018, 03:20 PM
Post: #6
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Richard,

The built in support for HPIL on the 75C is quite limited, however if you do not have an I/O ROM, which greatly expands the support for HPIL, you may want to get a copy of the I/O utilities (HPILCMD) LEX which contains 'SENDIO' and 'ENTIO$' which will ease the pain a little. Available at http://www.series80.org/Misc/HPILCMD.bin the manual is available in the MoHPC document collection.

Paul.
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07-03-2018, 06:51 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2018 06:51 PM by Dave Frederickson.)
Post: #7
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-03-2018 03:59 AM)coitboy2000 Wrote:  ... then save to HP82161A)

Hi Richard,

Saving files to tape isn't recommended as all the tapes in existence are deteriorating and becoming unreliable. Since you have Emu71 running it would be better to save files to virtual media (i.e. LIF disc image files) using ILPer for the Windows version. If you're running Emu71/DOS then the virtual mass media device and printer are built-in. Also, since you're working with HP-75 files, check out Emu75.

Dave
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07-03-2018, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2018 11:59 PM by Valentin Albillo.)
Post: #8
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
.
Hi, Richard (and Bob):

For your benefit, I'll comment here some of the points Bob mentions:

(07-03-2018 01:19 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Richard,

Welcome to the small but still very active world of '71B users.

Indeed welcome and indeed still very active. I've written and still am writing scores of HP-71B-related articles, challenges, routines, and posts in general. May I recommend you the following PDF articles in particular, if you like the HP-71B you're sure to like them and probably find them useful as well:

HP-71B Modest Mater
HP-71B Math ROM Baker's Dozen, Vol. 1
HP-71B Math ROM Baker's Dozen, Vol. 2
HP-71B Short & Sweet Sudoku Solver
HP-71B Fantastic FOUR
HP-71B Sudoku Solver's Sublime Sequel
HP-71B Minimax Polynomial Fit
28 Years of Othello
HP-71B Sudoku Generator ... & Coach !
Long Live the HP-71B!
Small Fry - Primes A'counting
Boldly Going ... Identifying Constants
Packing Long Integers for the HP 71B (Assembler)

Quote:You're about to find out something which is probably a little unexpected: the 71B and 75C use very different dialects of BASIC, and there are lots of differences in many areas.

A real lot. And if we also consider some of their respective plug-in ROMs, the differences are magnified tenfold.

Quote:Coming from a 75, the 71 seems a bit smaller and similar to use, though more flexible and easier to program; the 75 is much faster for math, but slower for I/O.

"Much faster" means something like 4x faster for basic math, not all. When dealing with matrix operations or advanced operations like "Solve" and "Integrate" (available in plug-in ROMs) the differences are smaller.

Quote:Coming from a 71, the 75 seems a lot larger, a lot less flexible, requires tedious syntax for files and I/O, and is just more 'crude' lacking system features such as subprograms, an assembler, etc.

This is just my subjective opinion but I never liked the HP-75, its BASIC is primitive at best, very similar to the one for the HP-85 and thus much less advanced than the 71B's dialect: no subprograms, no recursion, no support for complex numbers, bad I/O, so-so Math ROM, etc. Once the HP-71B was released there was no contest, the HP-75 became "the clunker" for me.

Quote:But both are still great machines and still fun to explore. Please join in and share your explorations, questions and discoveries.

Agreed, please do.

Regards.
V.
.

  
Find All My HP-related Materials here:  Valentin Albillo's HP Collection
 
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07-04-2018, 01:43 AM
Post: #9
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-03-2018 03:20 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  Richard,

The built in support for HPIL on the 75C is quite limited, however if you do not have an I/O ROM, which greatly expands the support for HPIL, you may want to get a copy of the I/O utilities (HPILCMD) LEX which contains 'SENDIO' and 'ENTIO$' which will ease the pain a little. Available at http://www.series80.org/Misc/HPILCMD.bin the manual is available in the MoHPC document collection.

Paul.

Thanks for the replies everyone. So great that this group is still so active. I deliberated whether I should post something for two days, glad I did.

I have tried to get the HPILCMD.bin onto the HP-75c but I have had no luck. My approach was
- Use EMU-71 with my HP-71b with EXTFILES lex. I have noted whilst you can see all the different file types with this lex you cannot copy unsupported files to the real or emulated HP-71?
- In EMU-71 Typing copy WS_FILE:HDRIVE2 TO :SERIAL1. I ended up renaming WS_FILE to HPILCMDS as I noted some were having issues with the name.
- On my HP-71b, typing COPY :RS232 TO HPILCMDS:TAPE

This all seems to go fine but and HPILCMDS does appear on the HP82164a tape catalog as L-75 type but it appears to be the incorrect size (L-75 61). Plugging the HP-75c in and trying to copy the HPILCMDS lex off the tape gives a "password" error?

In regards to tapes you are correct, its not a long term solution. I am lucky to have about 25 used tapes (1/2 work, some can be repaired) and a box of ten unused/unwrapped tapes I cannot bring myself to openSmile

I really have come to appreciate the HP-71b, I just couldn't resist a HP-75c for AU$30 on ebay.

I need to sell something to justify a Pil-Box Smile Binary transfer to the HP-75c from PC seems to have beaten me. I may keep my eye out for the I/O ROm but skimming the manual indicates it will not help in transferring lex files anyway?
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07-04-2018, 02:21 AM
Post: #10
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Hmmmm just looked at that file again and it appears to have a DFS header on it. This is a 256 byte header the a program called LIFUTIL appends onto the file to preserve the file type information. I don't use a tape drive I use diskettes and/or virtual diskettes on an old PC with a HPIL card and a program called Link+. I might be able to work something out for you, but not tonight its getting late here.
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07-04-2018, 02:51 AM
Post: #11
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-04-2018 02:21 AM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  Hmmmm just looked at that file again and it appears to have a DFS header on it. This is a 256 byte header the a program called LIFUTIL appends onto the file to preserve the file type information. I don't use a tape drive I use diskettes and/or virtual diskettes on an old PC with a HPIL card and a program called Link+. I might be able to work something out for you, but not tonight its getting late here.

Thanks. One thing I have learnt with playing with the old HP gear is to be patient.
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07-04-2018, 11:45 AM
Post: #12
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Hello Richard,
FYI, I have made available all the HP-75 modules & solutions books on the HP-75 Users Group site. (you need to register to have access)
The files section has the 00075-13013 IO Utilities Solutions Book which contains the HPILCMDS stored as a LIF file.
Sylvain
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07-04-2018, 12:13 PM
Post: #13
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Hi Sylvain, thanks for that. Lots of great stuff.
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07-06-2018, 03:16 AM
Post: #14
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
If anyone wants to know the precise procedure I use to get BASIC programs and Lex files to and from a modern PC to HP-71b using the HP82164a RS232 converter I would be happy to post it here. The process has come from many of the seperate posts on the forum. Those who have a PIL-box have a much more straightforward approach Smile

Cheers

Richard
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07-06-2018, 12:38 PM
Post: #15
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-06-2018 03:16 AM)coitboy2000 Wrote:  If anyone wants to know the precise procedure I use to get BASIC programs and Lex files to and from a modern PC to HP-71b using the HP82164a RS232 converter I would be happy to post it here. The process has come from many of the seperate posts on the forum. Those who have a PIL-box have a much more straightforward approach Smile

Yes, please do post it. Though I use a PIL-Box, it would be interesting to dabble with a serial connection. I presume the BASIC programs are transferred as text files and then Transformed in the machine?

--Bob Prosperi
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07-06-2018, 11:23 PM
Post: #16
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-06-2018 12:38 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  
(07-06-2018 03:16 AM)coitboy2000 Wrote:  If anyone wants to know the precise procedure I use to get BASIC programs and Lex files to and from a modern PC to HP-71b using the HP82164a RS232 converter I would be happy to post it here. The process has come from many of the seperate posts on the forum. Those who have a PIL-box have a much more straightforward approach Smile

Yes, please do post it. Though I use a PIL-Box, it would be interesting to dabble with a serial connection. I presume the BASIC programs are transferred as text files and then Transformed in the machine?

OK. I will try to put something together in a document.

I can transfer both BASIC text/source listings AND binary listings (with emu71).
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07-07-2018, 12:08 AM
Post: #17
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-06-2018 11:23 PM)coitboy2000 Wrote:  
(07-06-2018 12:38 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Yes, please do post it. Though I use a PIL-Box, it would be interesting to dabble with a serial connection. I presume the BASIC programs are transferred as text files and then Transformed in the machine?

OK. I will try to put something together in a document.

I can transfer both BASIC text/source listings AND binary listings (with emu71).

Great, thanks! Looking forward to reading it; no rush though, post it when you have time.

--Bob Prosperi
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07-07-2018, 02:45 AM
Post: #18
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
I have created some instructions below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t0qj0xwkbotms0...B.pdf?dl=0

There are bound to be some errors Smile

Richard
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07-08-2018, 12:39 AM
Post: #19
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
(07-07-2018 02:45 AM)coitboy2000 Wrote:  I have created some instructions below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t0qj0xwkbotms0...B.pdf?dl=0

There are bound to be some errors Smile

Richard

A couple of questions/comments.

1. The 82164A is jumpered for DTE mode?

2. A USB-to-Serial adapter won't work with the 82164A's RS-232 interface. You'll need an adapter with inverted RS-232 level signals.

3. As the adapter won't plug directly into the 82164A, a null modem cable is usually be used. Can you provide details on how this cable is wired?

Thanks,
Dave
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07-08-2018, 08:10 AM
Post: #20
RE: Transfer files between HP-71b/PC and then to HP-75c
Hi Dave

1. Yes the HP-82164A is DTE. At least it appears to be when I opened it yp.
2. Correct
3. I have a 15 pin female ended (both ends) null model cable; one end connected to the end of the USB to serial cable; the other end to a simple 15pin to 25pin adapter which is connected to the HP-82164A.

I did wire up a cable like that suggested by Christoph Klug & J-F Garnier, April 2006, based on previous material from Tony Duell but the null modem worked just the same from memory? I did not wire the null modem, it came straight from the shop.

Richrd
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