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Forum behavior
05-08-2018, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2018 11:38 PM by Gene.)
Post: #1
Forum behavior
This was posted in the Forum Issues forum, but I wanted to post it here as well.

We have had a rash of problematic behavior by various members in the forum over the last few weeks, which can easily get out of hand. As the newest moderator here, I would like to remind everyone of a few principles to respect while participating in the forum. If we do not adhere to the ideas below, we may ruin a very good place to exchange ideas about some of our favorite things.


1 – Treat others kindly. That seems pretty self-evident but in an online world, it is perhaps more important to keep this in mind that in the “real” world. All too often, it is easier to be harsh online than in person. We may respond to a post quickly and our words may not be helpful. I know I have been guilty of that in the past. Try hard to change.

2 –Speak softly. Going along with #1 above, always choose words carefully. Remember, we are a global community and some ways of speaking do not translate well from language to language.

3 – Assume the best about other members. Look for ways to assume good things about people and their posts. Be slow to get upset. Step away from the keyboard. Read what you have posted, delete it all if necessary, and consider typing it again tomorrow.

4 – Avoid language that raises the temperature of the dialog. Yes, that involves four-letter words, but it can be more than that. In 2017, do we really mean watching language for words like **** and ####? Yes. Something Richard Nelson put in place in the PPC Journal long ago has always stuck with me: This is a technical publication and those types of words do not add to the discussion. They are a diversion from sharing knowledge.

5 - The moderators are human. We make mistakes like everyone else. Have patience with us too, as this is a volunteer activity and is not always fun.

6 – All of us are guests here. Dave runs this board and it has been a wonderful place to learn and grow and share. If we abuse it, it could go away.

So, don’t call people stupid, crooks, @#!$#@%, or anything else. Leave that out of our discussions. Find ways to help, encourage, and educate. I know I need to learn and grow.

Thank you for your time and attention. Please respect others.

P.S. If you don't like anything I have written here, my PM line is always open.

P.P.S. The "junior moderator" tag is my inside joke as the new kid on the block.
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05-08-2018, 07:14 PM
Post: #2
RE: Forum behavior
Thanks for your time!

Saludos Saluti Cordialement Cumprimentos MfG BR + + + + +
Luigi Vampa +
Free42 HuaweiP10 '<3' I + + +
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05-08-2018, 11:02 PM
Post: #3
RE: Forum behavior
Good words Gene, thanks. It costs nothing to be nice.
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05-08-2018, 11:07 PM
Post: #4
RE: Forum behavior
(05-08-2018 03:47 PM)Gene Wrote:  As the newest moderator here, I would like to remind everyone of a few principles to respect while participating in the forum. [...] Thank you for your time and attention. Please respect others.

Welcome to your new "position" within this forum, Gene !

I'm sure you'll do a great job and would like to thank you for taking it and for using your valuable time to help and serve this community even further, as you've always done. Much appreciated.

Best regards.
V.
.
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05-09-2018, 02:07 AM
Post: #5
RE: Forum behavior
I'm a bit disappointed that multiple threads seem to have vanished entirely. There was a recent thread under the General Software Library forum, for I believe the Voyager series (11C or 15C, I can't remember now) that was completely nuked for no good reason the other day. There was also a thread in this forum that was recently nuked, and while it had some problems, locking it would have been a far better choice than wiping it out and losing the valuable discussions.

I am saddened by the fact that the comp.sys.hp48 newsgroup is dying off, because having a discussion forum that belongs to the people (rather than owned by one person and moderated by a select few) is a much better way of doing things. At the very least, we need some means of archiving posts off this site, so in the eventually possibility that it goes offline, we can still get the old posts. It's already somewhat apparent that there is little desire for continuity from the site management, because the old forum posts were never migrated over to the new forum, and it's been close to 5 years now, which should be plenty of time to convert the data. And retaining all old posts is essential to maintaining the historic record.
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05-09-2018, 02:20 AM
Post: #6
RE: Forum behavior
Atta way Gene! As a member of this forum, I will follow these rules and precepts as best as I can so that this community can flourish.
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05-09-2018, 02:31 AM
Post: #7
RE: Forum behavior
(05-08-2018 03:47 PM)Gene Wrote:  P.P.S. The "junior moderator" tag is my inside joke as the new kid on the block.

Well said, and congrats on the promo...'junior'. :-)
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05-09-2018, 06:21 AM
Post: #8
RE: Forum behavior
(05-09-2018 02:07 AM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  At the very least, we need some means of archiving posts off this site,

Yes dumps wouldn't be bad!

Wikis are great, Contribute :)
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05-09-2018, 08:01 AM
Post: #9
RE: Forum behavior
(05-09-2018 02:07 AM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  And retaining all old posts is essential to maintaining the historic record.
Might be difficult due to the new accounts. We would have lots of "fake-accounts" just to move those contributions over here.
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05-09-2018, 08:28 AM
Post: #10
RE: Forum behavior
@Gene: congratz!

my I request an addition?
7: when you post a contribution don't assume that everyone can see through it, explain it! (I make reference to Gauss saying "an architect doesn't leave the scaffolding after the building is done", but please, don't follow Gauss in this case)


Also little OT request.
I noticed this http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/search.php...75d6848104 as an episode of ragequit. As far as I understood, the guy did not like disagreements with his view. It seems sadly a pretty popular quality in online discussion.

Anyway this is not the main point. What I find nice is the "removal work" done in threads such as this: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10664.html . Such removal work doesn't disintegrate a thread.

In other words would be nice - but of course at the end the mod team decides, I can only hope - that if there are elements rocking the boat in a thread, but the thread has value in terms of point of views or information, the entire thread is saved while the posts identified as toxic are nuked.

Wikis are great, Contribute :)
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05-09-2018, 08:45 AM
Post: #11
RE: Forum behavior
One rule that I've recently followed more frequently is :

8 - don't feed the troll.

I think that not engaging in troubled discussions is one of the most efficient ways to keep this forum friendly.
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05-09-2018, 10:01 AM
Post: #12
RE: Forum behavior
Well said, Gene.
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05-09-2018, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2018 11:05 AM by Maximilian Hohmann.)
Post: #13
RE: Forum behavior
Hello!

Just out of curiosity: Although I am frequently looking into this forum I completely missed the offending posts/topics that this thread is about. Could anyone please enlighten me - supplying a couple of keywords should suffice! - what went so terible wrong that a thread like this one here became necessary?

Puzzled regards
Max
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05-09-2018, 12:22 PM
Post: #14
RE: Forum behavior
(05-09-2018 11:05 AM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Hello!

Just out of curiosity: Although I am frequently looking into this forum I completely missed the offending posts/topics that this thread is about. Could anyone please enlighten me - supplying a couple of keywords should suffice! - what went so terible wrong that a thread like this one here became necessary?

Puzzled regards
Max

Probably something to do with the interpretation and/or implementation details for some kind of license (GPL comes to mind).

V.
.
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05-09-2018, 01:25 PM
Post: #15
RE: Forum behavior
(05-09-2018 12:22 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  Probably something to do with the interpretation and/or implementation details for some kind of license (GPL comes to mind).

Ah, OK. I only read the thread titles/initial postings because I am zero interested in modern day replicas of fairly recent calculators.
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05-09-2018, 01:27 PM
Post: #16
RE: Forum behavior
I agree with Eric on all his points. Many, many, forums and Newsgroups have survived for decades without much (if any) moderator involvement, locking of threads, or nuking whole threads. That's a bad trend, really, perhaps something that goes with the thin skin and a need for "safe spaces" without possible risk of offense the current generation seems to have developed.

On other forums/newsgroups/mailing lists I have been involved with, if somebody repeatedly acts like a jerk/imbecile, they get ignored and eventually go away. As Didier succinctly advises "Don't feed the troll". Only threads that are outright spam get deleted / posters blocked. Differences of opinion (even heated ones) stand as part of the record. I think that approach is far better than the heavy-handed moderating this forum seems to be increasingly developing.

There is a great line from the beginning of Virginian Patrick Henry's famous 1775 speech that I think is relevant here:
But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve.

The recent thread on GPL was interesting to me, although heated in spots. I actually learned a lot and understood the passion on both sides. IMO, there was no reason to lock it down. Likewise, I'm not wild about the idea that somebody can get blocked because they annoy a small faction of members, despite how many others actually enjoy their posts immensely and find them really informative and thought-provoking. Lots of geniuses in history have been ornery, cantankerous, and occasionally a PITA to work with. We shouldn't censor or kick out people like this, certainly not on the basis of a handful of "black balls" from a slim minority of members.

burkhard out
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05-09-2018, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2018 02:50 PM by Dave Hicks.)
Post: #17
RE: Forum behavior
(05-09-2018 08:28 AM)pier4r Wrote:  Also little OT request.
I noticed this http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/search.php...75d6848104 as an episode of ragequit. As far as I understood, the guy did not like disagreements with his view. It seems sadly a pretty popular quality in online discussion.

I went through this morning and put titles back on the threads that he re-titled as '.' (because the forum SW wouldn't let him delete opening posts.)

The GPL threads are somewhat similar in that one of the main participants demanded that his account be deleted - then more deleted, then restored, then deleted again, then more deleted again. We semi-complied with some of his requests.
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05-09-2018, 03:19 PM
Post: #18
RE: Forum behavior
I believe the key point should be this:

If we all give some effort to follow the ideals listed in the first post of this thread, then topics will not get out of hand, people won't be accused of being thieves, foul language won't get used, and people won't leave the forum.

It is really pretty easy if we all slow down and show kindness to others.

When that is not followed, then we have problems.
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05-09-2018, 03:49 PM
Post: #19
RE: Forum behavior
It’s no fun being a mod (I've been one elsewhere)

So let’s hear it for the HPMuseum mods , they do a thankless task.... for free.
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05-09-2018, 05:09 PM
Post: #20
RE: Forum behavior
(05-09-2018 01:27 PM)burkhard Wrote:  I agree with Eric on all his points. Many, many, forums and Newsgroups have survived for decades without much (if any) moderator involvement, locking of threads, or nuking whole threads. That's a bad trend, really, perhaps something that goes with the thin skin and a need for "safe spaces" without possible risk of offense the current generation seems to have developed.

On other forums/newsgroups/mailing lists I have been involved with, if somebody repeatedly acts like a jerk/imbecile, they get ignored and eventually go away. As Didier succinctly advises "Don't feed the troll". Only threads that are outright spam get deleted / posters blocked. Differences of opinion (even heated ones) stand as part of the record. I think that approach is far better than the heavy-handed moderating this forum seems to be increasingly developing.

There is a great line from the beginning of Virginian Patrick Henry's famous 1775 speech that I think is relevant here:
But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve.

The recent thread on GPL was interesting to me, although heated in spots. I actually learned a lot and understood the passion on both sides. IMO, there was no reason to lock it down. Likewise, I'm not wild about the idea that somebody can get blocked because they annoy a small faction of members, despite how many others actually enjoy their posts immensely and find them really informative and thought-provoking. Lots of geniuses in history have been ornery, cantankerous, and occasionally a PITA to work with. We shouldn't censor or kick out people like this, certainly not on the basis of a handful of "black balls" from a slim minority of members.

burkhard out

How nice. You and Eric have an opinion. And of course; it's the popular whining "mean ole censoring nazi hitler trumpish moderators are taking some innocent angel's freedom of speech".

People can come here, post a question, and get answers from some of the brightest people around. Sometimes; the answer will be from a programmer or engineer at HP who wrote the OS or designed the calculator that the question is about. Occasionally answers have come from the head of the calculator division.

This is because we do not allow (rare) threads to become ALL CAPS, name calling, insult laden, cuss fests, at least not for long. But then, some "freedom fighter" re-opens it to get the last four letter word in.
Rinse and repeat. Nine times. Complete with "Dear Moderator; F*** you F*** you F*** you F*** you......".

Maybe you're right though. Maybe I AM a fascist for not welcoming that sort of garbage. You two want it. The rest of us 8000 members just better come out of our "safe space" and get used to it.

No. Not gonna happen here. There's always 4chan if one likes that sort of thing.
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