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MANPIP
04-07-2014, 06:00 PM
Post: #1
MANPIP
I just recently lost a program titled "MANPIP" when my batteries went dead and I did not get the new ones installed in time. The program was an open channel flow calculator for circular pipe using Manning's equation. The program was loaded into my HP-41CX in the late 1980's via a wand from barcode. I do not have the barcode to re-install it. I had it on magnetic cards, but the first of 5 cards was ruined by the drive wheel (became gooey) of my card reader that no longer works. Therefore, I am reaching out to see if anyone has this program written down or in barcode??? The first screen would show: Qf D S y Qp after XEQ MANPIP. The program would prompt you for "n=", "D=", "S=", "y=" and you would enter the knowns and R/S through the unknowns. Solution would then go through the same (allowing you to also check your input) and also give you V (velocity).

The program I am describing above is not the Pipe Slide Rule, although it is possible the programmer started with it.

If anyone could help me out that would be great.

I am a Civil Engineer and although I can use the computer to solve these problems, my 41CX was portable into the field. I would like to regain that ability.
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04-07-2014, 06:53 PM
Post: #2
RE: MANPIP
(04-07-2014 06:00 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  If anyone could help me out that would be great.
Is the Gauckler–Manning formula used?
[Image: 115da70eda4f9716ac53d8803fb84fe9.png]
Then it shouldn't be too difficult to recreate your program. Even providing the bar-code should be easy.
Without knowledge of hydraulics I assume D = 2Rh and y = k. But then what are Qf and Qp?

Kind regards
Thomas
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04-07-2014, 07:35 PM
Post: #3
RE: MANPIP
Qf is full flow in Cubic feet/sec
Qp is partial flow also in CFS

Also see attachment for more info


Attached File(s)
.pdf  Manning's info.pdf (Size: 67.56 KB / Downloads: 54)
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04-07-2014, 07:37 PM
Post: #4
RE: MANPIP
Also, the program was in English units only
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04-07-2014, 07:38 PM
Post: #5
RE: MANPIP
Rh is the hydrauolic radius not the radius of the pipe. D or d is the diameter of the pipe.
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04-07-2014, 11:05 PM
Post: #6
RE: MANPIP
(04-07-2014 07:35 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  Qf is full flow in Cubic feet/sec
Qp is partial flow also in CFS
How are these related to Q?

Quote:Also see attachment for more info
That certainly helped a lot!

Quote:The first screen would show: Qf D S y Qp after XEQ MANPIP.
Are they related to the top-row (LBL A-E)?

Quote:The program would prompt you for "n=", "D=", "S=", "y=" and you would enter the knowns and R/S through the unknowns.
As far as I understand all these parameters are needed to calculate Q = Q(n, d, y, S).
Is this what should be calculated?
Or can you specify Q as well and just omit one of the others?

Kind regards
Thomas
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04-08-2014, 06:01 PM
Post: #7
RE: MANPIP
Yes they are shown in that order accross the screen and then the A-E buttons are assigned to them accordingly.

Also yes you can just input what you know of the variables and it solves for the unknowns - You can specify the Diameter (D or d) and the flow Q and solve for slope S. or.. input the slope and flow and solve for diameter. The N factor is always input.
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04-08-2014, 06:04 PM
Post: #8
RE: MANPIP
Qp and Qf are both Q (flow in cubic feet/sec)
Qp is partial flow and is derived from the Manning's equation.
Qf is full flow where the equation changes to Q=VA, where V is velocity in Ft/sec and A is the cross sectional Area of the inside of the pipe in Feet.
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04-08-2014, 09:29 PM
Post: #9
RE: MANPIP
I left the Q= out of "The program would prompt you for "n=", "D=", "S=", "y=" and you would enter the knowns and R/S through the unknowns." it should have read: The program would prompt you for "n=", "Q=", "D=", "S=", "y=" and you would enter the knowns and R/S through the unknowns.
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04-09-2014, 08:05 AM
Post: #10
RE: MANPIP
(04-08-2014 09:29 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  I left the Q= out of "The program would prompt you for "n=", "D=", "S=", "y=" and you would enter the knowns and R/S through the unknowns." it should have read: The program would prompt you for "n=", "Q=", "D=", "S=", "y=" and you would enter the knowns and R/S through the unknowns.
That makes more sense. Was it possible to solve for D or y? Because that appears to be a little more difficult.

Quote:Qp and Qf are both Q (flow in cubic feet/sec)
Qp is partial flow and is derived from the Manning's equation.
Would you enter Qp in the program when prompted for "Q="?

Quote:Qf is full flow where the equation changes to Q=VA, where V is velocity in Ft/sec and A is the cross sectional Area of the inside of the pipe in Feet.
Does that mean: \(Qf=V\cdot\frac{\pi D^2}{4}\)?

Could you provide some examples for the calculations?

Though I'm sure this isn't yet what you had here's a first approach:
Code:
LBL "MANNING"
"N = ?"
PROMPT
FS?C 22
STO 00
"D = ?"
PROMPT
FS?C 22
STO 01
"S = ?"
PROMPT
FS?C 22
STO 02
"Y = ?"
PROMPT
FS?C 22
STO 03
1
RCL 03      ; y
2
*
RCL 01      ; d
/
-
ACOS
2
*
STO 04      ; theta = 2 arccos(1 - 2 y / d)
ENTER
SIN
-
RCL 01      ; d
X^2
*
8
/
STO 05      ; A = (theta - sin(theta)) d^2 / 8
RCL 04      ; theta
/
RCL 01      ; d
/
2
*           ; R = A / P
LASTX       ; 2
3
/
Y^X         ; R^(2/3)
RCL 02      ; S
SQRT
*
RCL 00      ; n
/
1.49        ; k
*
STO 06      ; V = k R^(2/3) S^(1/2) / n
RCL 05      ; A
*
STO 07      ; Q = V A
"N = "
ARCL 00
PROMPT
"D = "
ARCL 01
PROMPT
"S = "
ARCL 02
PROMPT
"Y = "
ARCL 03
PROMPT
"A = "
ARCL 05
PROMPT
"V = "
ARCL 06
PROMPT
"Q = "
ARCL 07
PROMPT
END

You are only asked for n, D, S and y. But you don't have to re-enter them when they aren't different from the last calculation. Only A, V and Q are calculated.

Cheers
Thomas


Attached File(s)
.pdf  manning.pdf (Size: 17.46 KB / Downloads: 34)
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04-09-2014, 02:13 PM
Post: #11
RE: MANPIP
Wow thanks.
I hand keyed it into a 41CV that I use at my desk since my 41CX is at home today. I still have to find my wand. It is at home somewhere. But thank you for the barcode.
When I tried to run the program I am getting a "DATA ERROR". I then hit PRGM and it stopped on line 23 / (divide).
Question: when I key in FS?C 22 do I include the space between the C and the 22? I tried it both ways and didn't have any luck.
Do I need a space between the letters and the = sign?
There is no need to show the results for "A"
Not important but the order I remember was N, Q, D, S, y, V

I will see if I can get it to work at lunch today.
Again, thank you very much for the effort you have put in.

last question: How do you create the barcode?

I will find some examples of the calculations today.

Regards,
Mark
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04-09-2014, 02:28 PM
Post: #12
RE: MANPIP
I believe it needs to ask for Q= also. You are correct that if the variable was input it would display in the results and nothing would need to be entered.

For example: I would enter N=0.013, Q=12 (CFS), D= no input, S=.01 (for 1%), Y= no input and it would calculate the size pipe in diameter (inches) required to flow 12 CFS at 1% in a concrete pipe with a N=0.013.

or I could enter N=0.013, Q= no input, D=15 (inches), S=.01, Y= no input and it would calculate the flow "Q" in CFS that a 15 inch concrete pipe can carry at 1%.
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04-09-2014, 05:20 PM
Post: #13
RE: MANPIP
(04-09-2014 02:13 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  When I tried to run the program I am getting a "DATA ERROR". I then hit PRGM and it stopped on line 23 / (divide).
Code:
22  RCL 01      ; d
23  /
That's because d wasn't specified or was set to 0.

Quote:Question: when I key in FS?C 22 do I include the space between the C and the 22?
[XEQ] [ALPHA] FS?C [ALPHA]
Now it should display:
FS?C __
Then you can enter 22:
FS?C 22

Quote:I tried it both ways and didn't have any luck.
I hope it works now.

Quote:Do I need a space between the letters and the = sign?
No. You can do as you like. It's just how the text is prompted. I can remove these.

Quote:There is no need to show the results for "A"
Not important but the order I remember was N, Q, D, S, y, V
I can change that easily.

Quote:I will see if I can get it to work at lunch today.
Again, thank you very much for the effort you have put in.

last question: How do you create the barcode?
I used: nutstudio. But there are other tools as well. IIRC even online.

Quote:I will find some examples of the calculations today.
That will help.

Cheers
Thomas
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04-09-2014, 06:58 PM
Post: #14
RE: MANPIP
(04-09-2014 02:28 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  For example: I would enter N=0.013, Q=12 (CFS), D= no input, S=.01 (for 1%), Y= no input and it would calculate the size pipe in diameter (inches) required to flow 12 CFS at 1% in a concrete pipe with a N=0.013.

or I could enter N=0.013, Q= no input, D=15 (inches), S=.01, Y= no input and it would calculate the flow "Q" in CFS that a 15 inch concrete pipe can carry at 1%.
Does it mean that "Y= no input" implies y=d?
In this case the formulas are much simpler:
  • \(A=\frac{\pi}{4}d^2\)
  • \(P=\pi d\)
  • \(R=\frac{d}{4}\).

Could it be that you specified: N, Q, D, S and then y was calculated?

Cheers
Thomas
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04-09-2014, 08:20 PM
Post: #15
RE: MANPIP
Yes Y would be calculated and the corresponding V too. In the specific example I gave you to solve for the Q, yes Y is also calculated and in that example y is equal to D as it is solving for full flow.

Now if I would enter N=0.013, Q=12 (CFS), D= 21 (inches), S=.01 (for 1%), Y= no input the program will solve for Y and V. The answers should be something close to Y= 1.14 feet or 13.68 inches and V = 7.26 Ft/sec. In this case Y is not equal to D.

I have attached a storm sewer design spreadsheet we use in our site plans. This should show the formulas in the cells that are computed as examples of the calculations - I hope it helps some. Ignore the elliptical pipe sizes as I am only concerned with circular pipe. This is not as useful as the other attachement described below.

I have also attached a document "080_14320.pdf" with alot of information on the Manning's equation with all the formulas. In this document they call "Y" out as "h". This is a good reference.


Attached File(s)
.xls  STORM SEWER DESIGN-14463-1-1.xls (Size: 142.5 KB / Downloads: 20)
.pdf  080_14320.pdf (Size: 997.74 KB / Downloads: 36)
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04-09-2014, 09:50 PM
Post: #16
RE: MANPIP
BTW, I did fix the FS?C 22 to the correct input method per your info. I checked it line by line too. I am still getting the "DATA ERROR" but now it is stopping at line 52 /
Also, the program is not prompting me for the input at the begining. I do not understand this as I see all the "PROMPT"s in the program listing???
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04-10-2014, 08:56 AM
Post: #17
RE: MANPIP
(04-09-2014 09:50 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  BTW, I did fix the FS?C 22 to the correct input method per your info. I checked it line by line too. I am still getting the "DATA ERROR" but now it is stopping at line 52 /
Code:
51   RCL 00      ; n
52   /
That means that n is 0. You can just as well use the following to set that value:
0.013
STO 00


Quote:Also, the program is not prompting me for the input at the begining. I do not understand this as I see all the "PROMPT"s in the program listing???
You say that PROMPT doesn't work properly?

From the manual:
Quote:The PROMPT instruction in a program displays the contents of the ALPHA register and stops program execution.

Thanks for the attachments. It will take a while to read them. Thus you have to be a little patient with me. It turned out the problem is a little more difficult than I assumed at first sight.

Cheers
Thomas
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04-10-2014, 12:28 PM
Post: #18
RE: MANPIP
OK. I'm not sure what I keyed in incorrectly - but I located my wand last night and was able to get your program to run after loading it from the barcode!

Time is no problem - I really appreciate what you are doing. Also, this event has had me get reacquainted with my 41's.

Just a side bar - I originally had a HP-34C that my Father bought me to go to college (Texas A&M). After two years of Engineering school I basically had to get a 41 to keep up with other students. It was a 41CV. After college I would use the 34C for daily computing tasks at my desk until it was stolen (I would leave it ontop of my desk charging at night). I still have all the books, charger, case, box, etc. for it. So I went full time 41CV. Then one day after I was investigating synthetic programing, I bought and tried to install a Turbo board in the CV. Well that was the last time that calculator worked. Then I bought my CX which I still use. I have also aquired a free CV from a co-worker which I use on a daily basis. I keep the CX for design programs and use the CV to keep the "miles" off of my CX.

Have a good day,
Mark
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04-12-2014, 04:29 AM
Post: #19
RE: MANPIP
This is the 2nd version of the MANNING program. It uses the top row of the keys similar to how you can solve TVM problems with the HP-12C. I used the following layout but this could be changed:

[N] [Q] [D] [S] [Y]

You can use [STO] + key to enter the known data and [RCL] + key to read it. This works because registers 01-05 are used for these 5 variables.
So you enter the known values and then press the key to calculate the unknown value. After a while the result is displayed. If you press [R/S] the velocity is displayed as well.

If you want to calculate the full flow you have to set both D and Y to the same value. If you know N, Q and S you can only solve for full flow with the key [D]. It's currently not possible to solve for D when N, Q, S and Y are given. I could be wrong but I assumed that isn't used often.

However you can solve for Y when N, Q, D and S are given. For certain values there might be two solutions but only the smaller is calculated. A fixed point iteration is used to solve the equation numerically. Thus the calculation may take a little longer especially for small values of \(\theta\).

Examples
You have to run this once to initialize the calculator:
[XEQ] "MANNING"

Partial flow:
n = 0.0130 Q = 7.2400 d = 2.7500 S = 0.0020 y = 1.0441

.013 [STO] [N]
7.24 [STO] [Q]
2.75 [STO] [D]
.002 [STO] [S]
[Y]
Y=1.0441
[R/S]
V=3.5000

Full flow: (y = d)
n = 0.0110 Q = 11.9559 d = 2.0000 S = 0.0020 y = 2.0000

.011 [STO] [N]
2 [STO] [D] [STO] [Y]
.002 [STO] [S]
[Q]
Q=11.9559
[R/S]
V=3.8057


Registers
00 k
01 n
02 Q
03 d
04 S
05 y
06 \(\theta\)
07 A
08 V

Code:
LBL "MANNING"
RAD
SF 27           ; set USER mode
.3048           ; 1 ft in m
1/X
3
1/X
Y^X
STO 00          ; k = 1.485918577
"N Q D S Y"
PROMPT
;==================================================
LBL A           ; calculate n
XEQ 01          ; R^(2/3)
RCL 00          ; k
*
RCL 04          ; S
SQRT
*
XEQ 02          ; V
/
STO 01          ; n = k * R^(2./3.) * sqrt(S) / V
"N="
GTO 03
;==================================================
LBL B           ; calculate Q
XEQ 01          ; R^(2/3)
RCL 00          ; k
*
RCL 04          ; S
SQRT
*
RCL 01          ; n
/
STO 08          ; V = k * R^(2./3.) * sqrt(S) / n
RCL 07          ; A
*
STO 02          ; Q = V * A
"Q="
GTO 03
;==================================================
LBL C           ; calculate d
RCL 01          ; n
RCL 02          ; Q
*
PI
/
RCL 00          ; k
/
RCL 04          ; S
SQRT
/
3
Y^X
4
5
Y^X             ; 4^5
*
8
1/X
Y^X
STO 03          ; d = (4^5 * (n * Q / pi / k / sqrt(S))^3)^(1/8)
STO 05          ; y = d
X^2
PI
*
4
/
STO 07          ; A = pi * d^2 / 4
XEQ 02          ; V
RCL 03
"D="
GTO 03
;==================================================
LBL D           ; calculate S
XEQ 01          ; R^(2/3)
XEQ 02          ; V
RCL 01          ; n
*
RCL 00          ; k
/
X<>Y            ; R^(2/3)
/
X^2
STO 04          ; S = (V * n / k / R^(2/3))^2
"S="
GTO 03
;==================================================
LBL E           ; calculate y
RCL 01          ; n
RCL 02          ; Q
*
RCL 00          ; k
/
RCL 04          ; S
SQRT
/
3
Y^X
2
13
Y^X
*
RCL 03
8
Y^X
/
STO 09          ; L = 2^13 * (n * Q / k / sqrt(S))^3 / d^8
;...............; calculate initial guess
3
1/X
Y^X
6.758860947     ; max q
/
SQRT
2
*
1
X<>Y
-
ACOS
5.278107138     ; max theta
*
PI
/               ; max_t*acos(1-2*sqrt(q/max_q))/pi
STO 06
;...............; fixed point iteration
LBL 00
RCL 06          ; theta
SIN
RCL 06          ; theta
X^2
RCL 09          ; L
*
.2
Y^X
+               ; theta' = sin(theta)+(L*theta^2)^.2
ENTER
X<> 06          ; theta
-
ABS
RND
X>0?
GTO 00
1
RCL 06          ; theta
2
/
COS
-
RCL 03          ; d
*
2
/
STO 05          ; y = d * (1 - cos(theta / 2)) / 2
RCL 06          ; theta
ENTER
SIN
-
RCL 03          ; d
X^2
*
8
/
STO 07          ; A = d^2 * (theta - sin(theta)) / 8
XEQ 02          ; V
RCL 05
"Y="
GTO 03
;==================================================
LBL 01          ; calculate theta, A and R^(2/3)
1
RCL 05          ; y
2
*
RCL 03          ; d
/
-
ACOS
2
*
STO 06          ; theta = 2 arccos(1 - 2 y / d)
ENTER
SIN
-
RCL 03          ; d
X^2
*
8
/
STO 07          ; A = (theta - sin(theta)) d^2 / 8
RCL 06          ; theta
/
RCL 03          ; d
/
2
*               ; R = A / P
LASTX           ; 2
3
/
Y^X             ; R^(2/3)
RTN
;==================================================
LBL 02          ; calculate V
RCL 02          ; Q
RCL 07          ; A
/
STO 08          ; V
RTN
;==================================================
LBL 03          ; prompt result
ARCL X
PROMPT
"V="
ARCL 08         ; V
AVIEW
END

Best regards
Thomas


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.pdf  manning.pdf (Size: 32.31 KB / Downloads: 26)
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04-12-2014, 04:37 AM
Post: #20
RE: MANPIP
(04-09-2014 08:20 PM)Jerussi Wrote:  Yes Y would be calculated and the corresponding V too. In the specific example I gave you to solve for the Q, yes Y is also calculated and in that example y is equal to D as it is solving for full flow.

Now if I would enter N=0.013, Q=12 (CFS), D= 21 (inches), S=.01 (for 1%), Y= no input the program will solve for Y and V. The answers should be something close to Y= 1.14 feet or 13.68 inches and V = 7.26 Ft/sec. In this case Y is not equal to D.

With the new version of the program you would enter:
.013 [STO] [N]
12 [STO] [Q]
21 [ENTER] 12 / [STO] [D]
.01 [STO] [S]
[Y]
Y=1.1385
[R/S]
V=7.2432

Cheers
Thomas
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