Programming issue HP41CX
02-13-2018, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 02-13-2018 08:55 PM by hth.)
Post: #21
 hth Senior Member Posts: 311 Joined: Mar 2014
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
Quad memory converts a C into a CV. It does not help a CV or CX.

Do you have that program in ASCII text form?

Håkan
02-13-2018, 08:57 PM
Post: #22
 Massimo Gnerucci Senior Member Posts: 1,791 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:45 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  Can I put a quad memory module in my CV and get extended memory or is it to only boost the 41C to a CV?

No, you cannot have more conventional memory than you already have in the CV (319 regs).
Extended memory resides in a different part of the addressable space and is used like a sort of RAM disk. You need a CX or an Extended Functions / Extended Memory module in order to have access to it.

Greetings,
Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
02-13-2018, 09:53 PM (This post was last modified: 02-13-2018 09:54 PM by Dieter.)
Post: #23
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:25 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I have a printer, but it has a drive problem.

The question was not whether you have a printer but if you have it attached. ;-)

(02-13-2018 08:25 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I see this on the CX. Entered as an alpha.
26 ACA
27 PRBUF

This means that the printer must have been attached when you entered the program. Else these commands would not show up.

(02-13-2018 08:25 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  Do I need to connect my printer when entering the program?

Yes, you have to. Otherwise the printer commands are not available. If you type XEQ ALPHA ACA ALPHA without a printer connected this line will become an XEQ "ACA" instead of ACA.

Dieter
02-13-2018, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 02-13-2018 09:57 PM by Dieter.)
Post: #24
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:45 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  Can I put a quad memory module in my CV and get extended memory or is it to only boost the 41C to a CV?

1. No you can't.

2. Extended memory is completely irrelevant here. The program does not make use of it.

3. Forget about extended memory. It's completely different from regular RAM where your program resides. The CV and CX feature as much RAM as possible in the HP41 system.

Dieter
02-13-2018, 10:01 PM
Post: #25
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:28 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I tried size 007 but program will not run. The attachment I sent discusses the size 026 information.

Now that you posted a listing it becomes clear that SIZE 007 is not sufficient: the program uses R25, so SIZE 026 is required.

Dieter
02-13-2018, 10:20 PM
Post: #26
 Didier Lachieze Senior Member Posts: 1,143 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:25 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I see this on the CX. Entered as an alpha.
26 ACA
27 PRBUF

This explains your memory issues. These instructions should not be entered as an Alpha, but with the printer attached and with XEQ "ACA" and XEQ "PRBUF".
02-14-2018, 12:54 AM (This post was last modified: 02-14-2018 12:57 AM by rprosperi.)
Post: #27
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 3,637 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:45 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  Can I put a quad memory module in my CV and get extended memory or is it to only boost the 41C to a CV?

No, the Quad MM only increases normal memory (yes, it boosts a C -> CV). On a C or CV, you must add an Extended Functions/Memory module to have the initial amount of Extended Memory (124 registers, the same as a CX comes with).

Also, yes you must have the printer plugged-in to the 41 (even if it can't print, the ROM is still visible) in order to have the printer instructions properly stored in the efficient XROM format (much smaller than the same instruction if entered without the printer present).

As Dieter noted, it doesn't seem like that could account for the large memeory difference, but I've no idea how many of those instructions there are.

I'd suggest stepping through all the code and deleting and re-entering all the print related program steps, with the printer installed, to be sure you have eliminated this part of the problem.

Edit: So, it's clear I'm the slowest of the folks trying to help here...

--Bob Prosperi
02-14-2018, 03:27 AM
Post: #28
 Garth Wilson Senior Member Posts: 368 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
If your printer is on HP-IL, then ACA, PRBUF, and other printer functions are also recognized if the HP-IL module is plugged in, (even if the printer is not connected at the moment).

02-14-2018, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 02-14-2018 08:15 AM by Dieter.)
Post: #29
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 10:20 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:
(02-13-2018 08:25 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I see this on the CX. Entered as an alpha.
26 ACA
27 PRBUF

This explains your memory issues. These instructions should not be entered as an Alpha, but with the printer attached and with XEQ "ACA" and XEQ "PRBUF".

Do you really think he entered these lines als alpha strings ?-)

James: how did you enter these lines? You have to have a printer connected and then type [XEQ] [ALPHA] ACA [ALPHA]. Only program lines enclosed in quotation marks "" are alpha text. Here is a test: Now that you have entered the complete program, run it with [XEQ] 44. What happens? Do you get a NONEXISTENT error? If not, press the ALPHA key to look at the alpha register. What do you see there? "============" or "PRBUF"?

Anyway: even if these two commands were entered as text this would not explain the missing 19 data registers. So there must be something else going on here. Howver, if James really entered every command that is not on the keyboard as alpha text... but since he owns two HP41s I cannot imagine he does not know such basics. But maybe he forgot after some decades without using these devices....?

Dieter
02-14-2018, 08:56 AM
Post: #30
 J-F Garnier Senior Member Posts: 321 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 01:20 AM)jhaig99 Wrote:  ...
The program label is V13, but when I try to execute it, it cannot be found.
...
I really think this V13 program is very sophisticated
Actually, the V13 label doesn't do much, according to the listing. It doesn't seem to be a main program entry.

Quote:The program overlay I have for the program has 30 labels on it for program entry and to recall calculation values.
This suggests that key assignments were used. Program key assignments are usually saved on magnetic cards.
But the documentation you shared doesn't mention it.

For your present problem, one mistake I sometimes did in the past when typing large programs was to key numeric labels as alpha labels, for instance LBL "55" instead of LBL 55.

J-F
02-15-2018, 07:51 AM
Post: #31
 J-F Garnier Senior Member Posts: 321 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
Well, I typed the program in my Emu41 (it didn't take me too much time).
After packing (GTO ..), the program size is 1997 bytes and there are still 8 free registers with SIZE=26.

There may be errors in my typing, I'm not sure of some 0 and 8 characters in the scanned document. It should not change the program size so much if a few STO/RCL 10 and STO/RCL 18 are incorrect.

So James, the question is still there: why can't you key this program in your 41C?

Attached is the listing generated with Emu41. Note that the append character (used once at step 45) is represented with the character .

While I was entering the program, I noticed these strange steps:
step 453: X<0? LOG
step 145: 1 /
step 225: 1 *
step 252: 1 *
step 371: 1 *
??

J-F

Attached File(s)
02-15-2018, 08:04 AM
Post: #32
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-15-2018 07:51 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Well, I typed the program in my Emu41 (it didn't take me too much time).
After packing (GTO ..), the program size is 1997 bytes and there are still 8 free registers with SIZE=26.

So James must have made some errors while entering the program.

(02-15-2018 07:51 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  While I was entering the program, I noticed these strange steps:
step 453: X<0? LOG
step 145: 1 /
step 225: 1 *
step 252: 1 *
step 371: 1 *
??

Yes, I noticed this as well. But there are several peculiarities in this program, and it could be shorter and faster with better programming.

Dieter
02-19-2018, 09:11 PM
Post: #33
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-15-2018 07:51 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:  Well, I typed the program in my Emu41 (it didn't take me too much time).
After packing (GTO ..), the program size is 1997 bytes and there are still 8 free registers with SIZE=26.

There may be errors in my typing, I'm not sure of some 0 and 8 characters in the scanned document. It should not change the program size so much if a few STO/RCL 10 and STO/RCL 18 are incorrect.

So James, the question is still there: why can't you key this program in your 41C?

Attached is the listing generated with Emu41. Note that the append character (used once at step 45) is represented with the character .

While I was entering the program, I noticed these strange steps:
step 453: X<0? LOG
step 145: 1 /
step 225: 1 *
step 252: 1 *
step 371: 1 *
??

J-F

I down loaded i41CX+ to my iPad and entered the program (correcting original entry errors) and it fit fine, but does not run as I remember.

Question: The program has a keyboard overlay. Do I need to label the keys to match the overlay or is that part in the program? When I enter the primary data to solve for Cv for example, when I enter the SG value, say 0.6, the program should return SG=0.6. It does not.
02-19-2018, 09:19 PM
Post: #34
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-14-2018 08:56 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote:
(02-13-2018 01:20 AM)jhaig99 Wrote:  ...
The program label is V13, but when I try to execute it, it cannot be found.
...
I really think this V13 program is very sophisticated
Actually, the V13 label doesn't do much, according to the listing. It doesn't seem to be a main program entry.

Quote:The program overlay I have for the program has 30 labels on it for program entry and to recall calculation values.
This suggests that key assignments were used. Program key assignments are usually saved on magnetic cards.
But the documentation you shared doesn't mention it.

For your present problem, one mistake I sometimes did in the past when typing large programs was to key numeric labels as alpha labels, for instance LBL "55" instead of LBL 55.

J-F

In the past I did enter via mag cards, but they no longer work.

I was not aware the overlay function may require additional entry work.
Sounds like I need to make some key assignments.

I should have corrected the alpha labels in my latest entry into the i41CX+ version on my iPad.
02-19-2018, 09:25 PM
Post: #35
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-14-2018 07:52 AM)Dieter Wrote:
(02-13-2018 10:20 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  This explains your memory issues. These instructions should not be entered as an Alpha, but with the printer attached and with XEQ "ACA" and XEQ "PRBUF".

Do you really think he entered these lines als alpha strings ?-)

James: how did you enter these lines? You have to have a printer connected and then type [XEQ] [ALPHA] ACA [ALPHA]. Only program lines enclosed in quotation marks "" are alpha text. Here is a test: Now that you have entered the complete program, run it with [XEQ] 44. What happens? Do you get a NONEXISTENT error? If not, press the ALPHA key to look at the alpha register. What do you see there? "============" or "PRBUF"?

Anyway: even if these two commands were entered as text this would not explain the missing 19 data registers. So there must be something else going on here. Howver, if James really entered every command that is not on the keyboard as alpha text... but since he owns two HP41s I cannot imagine he does not know such basics. But maybe he forgot after some decades without using these devices....?

Dieter

Yes, my experience level has slipped quiet a bit. Upon my latest reentry of the program into the i41CX+ program on my iPad, I looked up the description for every entry and found quiet a few errors as you have pointed out. After I finished the last reentry and packed/ended, I have 07 left and the size set at 026. I am now working on putting in the key assignments to match the overlay.
02-19-2018, 09:30 PM
Post: #36
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-14-2018 12:54 AM)rprosperi Wrote:
(02-13-2018 08:45 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  Can I put a quad memory module in my CV and get extended memory or is it to only boost the 41C to a CV?

No, the Quad MM only increases normal memory (yes, it boosts a C -> CV). On a C or CV, you must add an Extended Functions/Memory module to have the initial amount of Extended Memory (124 registers, the same as a CX comes with).

Also, yes you must have the printer plugged-in to the 41 (even if it can't print, the ROM is still visible) in order to have the printer instructions properly stored in the efficient XROM format (much smaller than the same instruction if entered without the printer present).

As Dieter noted, it doesn't seem like that could account for the large memeory difference, but I've no idea how many of those instructions there are.

I'd suggest stepping through all the code and deleting and re-entering all the print related program steps, with the printer installed, to be sure you have eliminated this part of the problem.

Edit: So, it's clear I'm the slowest of the folks trying to help here...

The i41CX+ program on my iPad has the printer built in. I do not remember if I had it turned on when I entered the program recently. I will go back and turn it on and recheck the printer commands.
02-19-2018, 09:34 PM
Post: #37
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-13-2018 08:54 PM)hth Wrote:  Quad memory converts a C into a CV. It does not help a CV or CX.

Do you have that program in ASCII text form?

Håkan

I only have the program in the form I sent as an attachment. In the string below, someone did attach a .txt version.
02-19-2018, 09:35 PM (This post was last modified: 02-19-2018 09:38 PM by Dieter.)
Post: #38
 Dieter Senior Member Posts: 2,398 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-19-2018 09:19 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I was not aware the overlay function may require additional entry work.
Sounds like I need to make some key assignments.

An overlay that is placed on the HP41 keyboard is only for your convenience. It helps remembering which program or function has been assigned to which key.

But of course it is you who has to provide the key assignments before! The keys don't get reassigned by placing a plastic overlay on the keyboard. ;-)

However, when a program is recorded on magnetic cards (!) any existing key assignments for these program(s) are recorded along with the program. If the card later is read back in USER mode the keys are automatically assigned. That's why you did not have to care about this when you read the program from card. But if you now want to use the overlay (or any key assignments in general) without the cards you will first have to provide these assignments manually, i.e. by means of the ASN function.

By the way, what exactly did you do wrong before so that you could not enter the program without running out of memory? Where was the problem? Just curious.

Dieter
02-26-2018, 06:16 PM
Post: #39
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
(02-19-2018 09:35 PM)Dieter Wrote:
(02-19-2018 09:19 PM)jhaig99 Wrote:  I was not aware the overlay function may require additional entry work.
Sounds like I need to make some key assignments.

An overlay that is placed on the HP41 keyboard is only for your convenience. It helps remembering which program or function has been assigned to which key.

But of course it is you who has to provide the key assignments before! The keys don't get reassigned by placing a plastic overlay on the keyboard. ;-)

However, when a program is recorded on magnetic cards (!) any existing key assignments for these program(s) are recorded along with the program. If the card later is read back in USER mode the keys are automatically assigned. That's why you did not have to care about this when you read the program from card. But if you now want to use the overlay (or any key assignments in general) without the cards you will first have to provide these assignments manually, i.e. by means of the ASN function.

By the way, what exactly did you do wrong before so that you could not enter the program without running out of memory? Where was the problem? Just curious.

Dieter

It appears there were steps done in alpha incorrectly. Also were main problems in how I handled "ACA" and "PRBUF".

Program still not running correctly but an ongoing project. Need to work on key assignments for keyboard program overlay. Thanks to you and the Forum for all the input provided.
02-26-2018, 08:34 PM
Post: #40
 jhaig99 Junior Member Posts: 25 Joined: Feb 2018
RE: Programming issue HP41CX
Is there a way to read/get what information may be on a magnetic card that a card reader will not read. Would like to salvage as much of a program on the mag cards as possible.
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