Introduction and Thankyou
07-18-2017, 11:56 AM
Post: #1
 Zac Bruce Junior Member Posts: 37 Joined: Jul 2017
Introduction and Thankyou
Hi all,

I've been lurking around this site for quite some time and thought it was about time to sign up, not because I have anything particularly to add to the discussions but more to say thank you to everyone for the discussions had here, and the wealth of knowledge about HP calculators.

I'm currently enrolled in as an undergrad in accounting, and I stumbled upon HP calculators almost completely by chance. When looking for a calculator that would suit for my finance subjects the 12c often came up in discussions. The idea of RPN interested me, and so off to ebay I went. Now I've absolutely fallen in love with RPN and the 12c, and own a couple. Also I bought a HP Prime, which I don't really need but I was using it to check my answers during a statistics course I was taking (during breaks at work, no computers). It's a beautiful calculator but well beyond anything I need. Now I've really caught the bug- I just bid a whole dollar on a slightly damage 19Bii that I look likely to win, and I'm already thinking about trying to collect all the business/financial models, or at least the RPN ones.

I've also developed a general interest in the history and development of HP calculators, and have become determined to learn all the capabilities of RPN and the 12c in particular. Surprisingly the 12c is allowed in our exams, and I believe is the only programmable calculator to be allowed (the 10c also, but good luck to anyone trying to buy one here I suppose). I'm submitting an application to the university to have other RPN HP calculators added to the list.

You would think that being enrolled in accounting that I would have found some kind of kindred spirit in my love for calculators and RPN, but alas, nobody seems to care much at all. Today I was reading about calculating mark ups from required margins, nice simple stuff and was having much too much fun playing around with the calculator. The fact that I actively think about what is happening in various calculations and how the stack is operating etc. means that the information is sticking much more than if I just had to memorize how to do the calculations.

Anyway, enough from me. I'll probably just go back to lurking. No doubt as I get further through my degree I'm going to think of ways to write programs that will help with calculations in exams and so I'll come back and share anything I come up with. I think most of it would have already been done by someone else at this point though!

Kind regards,

Zac
07-18-2017, 02:16 PM
Post: #2
 rprosperi Super Moderator Posts: 5,290 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
(07-18-2017 11:56 AM)Zac Bruce Wrote:  I've been lurking around this site for quite some time and thought it was about time to sign up, not because I have anything particularly to add to the discussions but more to say thank you to everyone for the discussions had here, and the wealth of knowledge about HP calculators.
...
Now I've really caught the bug- I just bid a whole dollar on a slightly damage 19Bii that I look likely to win, and I'm already thinking about trying to collect all the business/financial models, or at least the RPN ones.

Welcome to the MoHPC Zac, thanks for the intro and background.

The 19BII (and all the other clamshell models except the vary late 19BII machines with door on back) have an unfortunate weak spot - the battery door, or more accurately the mounting slots that the door slides into; very frequently the 'door frame' is cracked or even broken, due to the constant pressure from the battery springs.

Check the listing photos carefully; if not shown, ask seller to add photos of the battery door area (with top open) to inspect. If all is OK, you will only see the fine seam between door and door-frame. Sometimes, even though the door frame may have cracks, it will still retain the door if handles carefully. If broken, there is unfortunately not much you can do, besides ugly tape or similar hacks.

Recommend the next machine to get is an HP-17BII, essentially the intended RPN successor of the 12C (though the 12C will not go away any time soon). They are plentiful, inexpensive, reliable, and excellent machines, with a very powerful, though initially arcane, solver to solve equations for any variable. There are MANY example articles here in the Forums (and in the old Forums here) that illustrate how to do amazing things with the solver.

Welcome to this interesting little corner of the universe.

--Bob Prosperi
07-18-2017, 02:47 PM
Post: #3
 Don Shepherd Senior Member Posts: 749 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Hello Zac.

I second what Bob Prosperi said about the 17bii. Its solver is effectively a programming language of its own. You can not only solve equations but also use it to write programs that can do powerful things. I'm still discovering what it can do after using it for the past 10 years; it is an intellectual delight.

The current 12c is very fast. Here is a prime factor finder that I wrote for the 12c, based upon an original program from Dave Britten.

Don Shepherd
07-18-2017, 03:50 PM
Post: #4
 Dave Frederickson Senior Member Posts: 2,120 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
(07-18-2017 11:56 AM)Zac Bruce Wrote:  I'm already thinking about trying to collect all the business/financial models, or at least the RPN ones.

Simply collecting all the 12C variants is an impressive accomplishment.

07-18-2017, 07:35 PM
Post: #5
 Dave Britten Senior Member Posts: 2,082 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Welcome to the rabbit hole, please check your wallet at the door.

If you're doing accounting and finance, you'd love the palmtops (95LX, 100LX, 200LX). All the functionality of a 19BII, with a huge screen, Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet in ROM, MS-DOS compatibility, etc.
07-18-2017, 09:10 PM
Post: #6
 BobVA Senior Member Posts: 389 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
I think you need one of these!

Welcome aboard!

Bob
07-18-2017, 10:13 PM
Post: #7
 lemontea Member Posts: 176 Joined: May 2014
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
You may want to take a look at this, if you are not already aware of this book:

Mastering the Magic of the HP 12c

http://rcpublications.com/hp/index.html
07-18-2017, 11:47 PM
Post: #8
 KF6GPE Member Posts: 61 Joined: Jun 2017
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
I might actually have an HP-80 that needs work if you're in California and interested. I think the transformer for the screen is probably shot --- I need to crack it open and look at it.

But seriously, another thing to add to the prospective collection is a DM12 and DM12L from http://www.swissmicros.com. I just got my brother-in-law, an actuary, a DM12L; he carries his HP12C everywhere. He started using it in actuarial school, which would have been about when it came out, give or take a few years.

Welcome to the forums!!
07-19-2017, 12:20 AM
Post: #9
 Zac Bruce Junior Member Posts: 37 Joined: Jul 2017
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Thanks everyone for the welcome.
So it begins, I guess, I already have a platinum with the silver background for the keys, and a newer kinpo platinum. Picked both up cheap on eBay, one second hand and one new. I just recently saw a USA made 12c that was going cheap but can't seen to find it now. The 19b I bid on seems to have the battery door in good condition but the face of the calculator has a small crack. Figure I can probably find other broken ones and piece a complete one together. Or there are usually a few around at around 75-100 AUD, I just saw one with the manual that looked almost perfect. If I manage to get the 17bii+ approved for use at uni no doubt I'll pick one of those up but I love the form factor of the 12c so will most likely stick with learning how to get the most out of it.
Are there any reviews around for the book that was mentioned? A quick Google didn't show anything but I thought maybe some one here would know. And does Gene Wright still post on these forums? I'd be interested in picking up his book as well.
Now I have two things to hide shamefully from my wife- how much I spend on science fiction novels and how many calculators I own! She was rather confused when the second platinum turned up in the mail, asking "Don't you already have a calculator?"
The Swiss micros were something I had a look at, I'd be interested to hear from people who have experience with then firsthand as to how they feel compared to the HP, one of the things I love about the 12c is the hinged, clicky buttons. Also probably pick up one of those Victor models too.

Thanks again,
Zac
07-19-2017, 12:04 PM
Post: #10
 SlideRule Senior Member Posts: 1,324 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
(07-19-2017 12:20 AM)Zac Bruce Wrote:  ... have a platinum with the silver background for the keys, and a newer kinpo platinum ... saw a USA made 12c ... love the form factor of the 12c so will most likely stick with ... Swiss micros ... pick up one of those Victor models ...

from TAS
a: Aurora FN1000 NIB , 12c clone
b: Victor V12 NIB , 12c clone
useable clones but mostly collectibles.

BEST!
SlideRule
07-19-2017, 03:09 PM
Post: #11
 rprosperi Super Moderator Posts: 5,290 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
(07-19-2017 12:20 AM)Zac Bruce Wrote:  If I manage to get the 17bii+ approved for use at uni no doubt I'll pick one of those up but I love the form factor of the 12c so will most likely stick with learning how to get the most out of it.

There are 2 different 17bii+ models, the "Gold", a very cheap looking and feeling version which IMHO, sucks, and the "Silver" which is easily the nicest hardware HP still sells (Prime excluded).

But both models have a fatal flaw in the Solver when using the L() and G() advanced functions. If you won't use those the Silver is a great machine, also available quite inexpensively (I bought a like-new one for $22). But if you plan to learn and use the Solver (sounds like you will) then I would recommend you stay with the 17BII and avoid the 'plus' models. (07-19-2017 12:20 AM)Zac Bruce Wrote: The Swiss micros were something I had a look at, I'd be interested to hear from people who have experience with then firsthand as to how they feel compared to the HP, one of the things I love about the 12c is the hinged, clicky buttons. Also probably pick up one of those Victor models too. I have not personally used the small models except briefly, so can't comment, but the full-size DMxxL models are excellent machines, with very definite "click" feel buttons. While not identical to the HP feel, it is just as distinct and satisfying (to me at least) though some folks have commented that one must press slightly harder than on an HP. --Bob Prosperi 07-19-2017, 11:46 PM (This post was last modified: 07-19-2017 11:47 PM by lemontea.) Post: #12  lemontea Member Posts: 176 Joined: May 2014 RE: Introduction and Thankyou You won't like the cheap clone buttons. I don't. (Note: The SwissMicros ones are not cheap clones. I got the large 16C one). 07-20-2017, 01:21 AM Post: #13  Zac Bruce Junior Member Posts: 37 Joined: Jul 2017 RE: Introduction and Thankyou What a shame to be living in Australia, as most of things are so expensive. I've yet to see a 17bii+ secondhand, and a new one costs$140. I think the Victor clone is around $65. I did find a place still selling brand new 30b's but again they were about$75, but might be worth me picking up a new one while I can.
I've seen a few 17bii secondhand at fairly reasonable prices, but don't really know much about the solver to make an informed decision about whether I would like or need that. The newer + models certainly look very nice.
I found the USA 12c listing again but realized that it has a little bit of damage to the face. They're asking $40 I think, which is a little bit less than I've paid for both my platinums. Still tossing up whether to buy it now or hold out until I can find one in better condition. Anyone got any feedback on the 12c books mentioned? I'm just wondering what benefit they would have over the user manual, problem book and the training modules from HP. I was lucky enough to get a full copy of the manual in printed form with my first purchase, I can't really stand reading digital stuff like that and have considered getting a copy of either the training modules or the problem solving book printed and bound in pocket size. But if either the magic book mentioned or the Gene Wright book have something further to add to my knowledge I'd certainly be interested. Thanks all. Zac 07-20-2017, 01:52 AM Post: #14  rprosperi Super Moderator Posts: 5,290 Joined: Dec 2013 RE: Introduction and Thankyou (07-20-2017 01:21 AM)Zac Bruce Wrote: I've yet to see a 17bii+ secondhand, and a new one costs$140.

If you don't care about advanced Solver features, here's 17BII+ just listed with auction starting less than \$15 USD (and note that it's mislabeled as a 17BII). International shipping rates are not listed, but contacting seller will often result in agreement to ship to outside US.

Also, Gene Wright's book is great, very easy to read & follow with useful and real-world exercises to illustrate the concepts. Recommended.

--Bob Prosperi
07-20-2017, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 07-20-2017 09:40 AM by Gamo.)
Post: #15
 Gamo Senior Member Posts: 712 Joined: Dec 2016
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Hello Zac and Welcome to HP calculators forum.

HP 12C is the best all around everyday use calculator you can still buy today.

Got some little program to calculate the date of the next Full Moon
Lets try it out for fun.

Please use D.MY date format (Day Month Year)

15.011900
^DYS
CHS
LST X
X<>Y
29.531
/
LST X
X<>Y
INTG
1
+
*
.5
+
INTG
DATE
GTO 00

Example: Today is July 20, 2017
D.MY format is 20.072017 press R/S

Answer: 7.08 is August 7, 2017

07-20-2017, 09:59 AM
Post: #16
 Gamo Senior Member Posts: 712 Joined: Dec 2016
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Hello Zac

Nice to hear that you interested about Pricing Calculation and you own the HP Prime. I try this two formula on the Solve App to calculate pricing base on Price, Cost, Mark Up and Margin. Just input two of the known variables woola.....

Lets try it !!

Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)

07-20-2017, 11:27 AM
Post: #17
 Zac Bruce Junior Member Posts: 37 Joined: Jul 2017
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
That full moon thing is cool, very clever. I think I had come across that posted somewhere else around here.

I've never had a play with the Solve App on the Prime. I basically used the Prime only to do hypothesis tests, and some simple linear regression/2 var summary statistics stuff.
I'd have to have a look at the manual again, I'm sure it could do some really cool stuff. I just had a quick look on the calculator then and managed to break something (touch screen not working, couldn't exit the app) and had to do a reset!

I did muck around with the spreadsheet app for a little while, I remember it was a real pain trying to work out why the formulas weren't working (syntax error) when Home was set up for RPN, and the manual was no help, which was disappointing. I can't remember now whether I ended up with a better work around than having to hit the CAS button when inputting formulas.

I got a reply back from the head of the business school at my uni, and he explained that "in general we do not allow advanced financial calculators"

I guess the 12c came in on the right side of advanced for their standards, even though it is programmable. It seems highly doubtful that they will come at the idea of allowing any of the variations of 17b though, so looks like I'll be sticking to learning the 12c. They also allow the 10bii but my mind is already thinking so much in RPN. I haven't had much of a look at how the feature set compared between the two calculators. Maybe if there are things that the 10bii calculators do much better than the 12c I'll have to tearfully leave the 12c a while and put some effort in to learning how to use the 10bii+ instead.
07-20-2017, 01:40 PM
Post: #18
 KF6GPE Member Posts: 61 Joined: Jun 2017
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Quote:The Swiss micros were something I had a look at, I'd be interested to hear from people who have experience with then firsthand as to how they feel compared to the HP, one of the things I love about the 12c is the hinged, clicky buttons. Also probably pick up one of those Victor models too.

I have the DM41L, the itty bitty one. The keys are a little different, of course, given the size, but very satisfying and very clicky. It is almost too small for long programming sessions, though --- I should have held up a credit card before I ordered it for that. I am not disappointed, the mistake was mine, and I enjoy using it, and it's an excuse to use further disposable income on the larger one!

I suspect the DM12L I got for my brother in law is similar in that regard as far as keys go.

They are very well engineered and well built devices, especially at the quantity I suspect he's running. I've encountered a lot of low-to-middle volume hardware in my career, and most of it does not hold up well. Swiss Micros products do not have those flaws, and I'd recommend them to anyone.
[/quote]
07-20-2017, 07:38 PM
Post: #19
 Guenter Schink Senior Member Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
(07-20-2017 01:40 PM)KF6GPE Wrote:  I have the DM41L, the itty bitty one. The keys are a little different, of course, given the size, but very satisfying and very clicky. It is almost too small for long programming sessions, though --- I should have held up a credit card before I ordered it for that. I am not disappointed, the mistake was mine, and I enjoy using it, and it's an excuse to use further disposable income on the larger one!

You're talking about a DM41, not a DM41L aren't you? Credit Card size!
07-21-2017, 06:27 AM
Post: #20
 KF6GPE Member Posts: 61 Joined: Jun 2017
RE: Introduction and Thankyou
Oh! Yes. I have them confused. The 41, not the 41L. Thanks!
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