HP Prime micro sd
06-08-2017, 12:07 AM
Post: #1
 math7 Member Posts: 163 Joined: Feb 2017
HP Prime micro sd
Hello everyone
I have a concern that I do not know if someone has already asked around here, and that's why the HP Prime did not put a memory card? That is to say why they did not like with the HP 50G able to work with a micro sd to be able to save and store more programs, photos and documents and notes? Would it be possible to deploy it in a newer model of the HP Prime? Call it HP Prime+.
06-08-2017, 12:51 AM
Post: #2
 pier4r Senior Member Posts: 2,019 Joined: Nov 2014
RE: HP Prime micro sd
The Prime has a lot of internal storage space. Did you ever used more than some mbytes on the sd card of the 50g ?

Wikis are great, Contribute :)
06-08-2017, 01:33 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 01:34 AM by math7.)
Post: #3
 math7 Member Posts: 163 Joined: Feb 2017
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-08-2017 12:51 AM)pier4r Wrote:  The Prime has a lot of internal storage space. Did you ever used more than some mbytes on the sd card of the 50g ?

Not really. The Prime has only about 16 MB available for the user, the specifications say that it has about 256 MB of ROM, but this is for the operating system, but for the user only 16 MB, which I consider to be quite a bit, Go making more programs or integrating more third-party applications this memory is rapidly reduced. In addition the HP Prime can work with photos for example for the application of Geometry or Statistics, so you can not save many photos in your memory. As an example TI-nspire has about 100MB for the user.
06-08-2017, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 02:09 AM by Tim Wessman.)
Post: #4
 Tim Wessman Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP Prime micro sd
Nope, that is just RAM. 32MB is the size of the RAM chip, of which 18MB or so will be available on a fresh system for the user to use for you *active* data. You have about 210MB of flash memory storage free on an empty system. Far more then the nspire.

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
06-08-2017, 06:38 AM
Post: #5
 math7 Member Posts: 163 Joined: Feb 2017
RE: HP Prime micro sd
I understand, but 16MB are not enough to save many photos or documents or notes to use with other applications. The images or photos are used for the application of curve adjustment for example, but without much memory it is not possible to save many of them. And what is flash memory for? Can this memory be used for user applications or not?
06-08-2017, 08:37 AM
Post: #6
 pier4r Senior Member Posts: 2,019 Joined: Nov 2014
RE: HP Prime micro sd
Well if you want to save many photos at high resolution I guess you are using the wrong device. The storage memory is like a "disk" in a computer. the memory you are talking for is Ram. The "sd" is like the storage memory on the 50g, it is not ram.
Although the Ram of a calculator is great because it holds the content even if you restart it, so it cannot be large due to energy requirements.

Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_memory
and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory
plus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital

If the storage of the prime is not enough try to use a smartphone or a tablet (and maybe you can tell us which app was able to let you to do what to do, because it would be interesting).

Also I will be interested in any smartphone or tablet that is well known and costs less than 150$that, without custom ROM, allows you to use the ram as a disk. Without wiping out its contents when you restart it (I give you a clue: none). Oh and if you consider tablets and smartphones that cost up to 1000$, still not considering custom ROMs, the clue would be the same. Still none.

We can even jump on PCs. Do you know any well known OS for PC that keeps the content of the ram available after a restart (without special "searching" programs)? I do not. You can maybe load 4GB of photos in ram with a PC, but once you restart the system, all gone.

Having devices with much more memory is difficult when they have to run on battery for some days keeping their content.

All this remembers me of this comment: http://bugs.hpcalc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260 that is funny.

On a side note, aside from loading large data, like photos, that does not require much effort (just use a modern digital camera and suddenly one has large data). Using only programs, equations, plots and so on it is very difficult for me to fill even the 230 kb of available memory of the 50g with meaningful data. I cannot imagine 16000kb for the prime.

Wikis are great, Contribute :)
06-08-2017, 10:11 AM
Post: #7
 toml_12953 Senior Member Posts: 1,409 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-08-2017 02:06 AM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  Nope, that is just RAM. 32MB is the size of the RAM chip, of which 18MB or so will be available on a fresh system for the user to use for you *active* data. You have about 210MB of flash memory storage free on an empty system. Far more then the nspire.

Yes, but can we store data in the flash memory or is it only for use by the OS? The Nspire can store photos and user data in the 100MB

Tom L

Tom L
...other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?
06-08-2017, 10:54 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 10:57 AM by Tyann.)
Post: #8
 Tyann Member Posts: 216 Joined: Oct 2014
RE: HP Prime micro sd
Bonjour

Sauf erreur pour sauvegarder des données directement dans la flash rom
il faut utiliser Afiles.

Concernant la taille de la RAM, j'ai personnellement une application en développement
de 6 Mo environ que je ne peut plus sauvegarder (erreur mémoire insuffisante).

Hello

Except error on my part to save data directly in the flash rom
You must use Afiles.

Concerning the size of the RAM, I personally have an application in development
Of about 6 MB that I can no longer back up (insufficient memory error).

Sorry for my english
06-08-2017, 03:10 PM
Post: #9
 Tim Wessman Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-08-2017 10:11 AM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Yes, but can we store data in the flash memory

Yes. All user data is stored in flash and loaded as needed *on access*.

You can store data directly in your applications using AFiles and store up to the max of your flash. I'd not recommend filling it completely as things may behave unpredictably when out of space, but that happens with any computer.

If you find yourself running low on RAM, power off the calculator to save everything (to flash), and then reboot the calculator. That will unload any objects not in use.

The OS/Calculator application has a separate location where it is written at on flash to be loaded from on boot. Apart from that, it does not use the flash and ONLY user data exists on that flash chip.

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
06-09-2017, 01:10 AM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2017 01:12 AM by math7.)
Post: #10
 math7 Member Posts: 163 Joined: Feb 2017
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-08-2017 08:37 AM)pier4r Wrote:  Well if you want to save many photos at high resolution I guess you are using the wrong device. The storage memory is like a "disk" in a computer. the memory you are talking for is Ram. The "sd" is like the storage memory on the 50g, it is not ram.
Although the Ram of a calculator is great because it holds the content even if you restart it, so it cannot be large due to energy requirements.

We can even jump on PCs. Do you know any well known OS for PC that keeps the content of the ram available after a restart (without special "searching" programs)? I do not. You can maybe load 4GB of photos in ram with a PC, but once you restart the system, all gone.

Having devices with much more memory is difficult when they have to run on battery for some days keeping their content.

All this remembers me of this comment: http://bugs.hpcalc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260 that is funny.

On a side note, aside from loading large data, like photos, that does not require much effort (just use a modern digital camera and suddenly one has large data). Using only programs, equations, plots and so on it is very difficult for me to fill even the 230 kb of available memory of the 50g with meaningful data. I cannot imagine 16000kb for the prime.

I think he misunderstood me. I do not mean to save photos in the Prime as if it were a storage device, because logically could save them in a usb memory; I mean the HP Prime did with the ability to work with photos and images, in fact has some built-in factory, these images can be of nature, physical phenomena, etc. and use them in the application of geometry or statistics, To find a curve that fits for example the curvature of a bridge, or to draw a right triangle on a photo with a tree and that projects a shadow on the ground and things like that; The HP Prime has this capability, so if you use a micro sd card or similar it could be super easy to carry all that information along with manuals and documents and application notes on it because it would not be practical to have to load the computer and the calculator Together to be able to pass files from one to the other. Now, the operating system of the HP 50g is different from the HP Prime, so the programs written in one do not have the same size as the other programs, I also had the HP 50g and is true, 256Kb for the User memory was enough for the type of programs in their factory language, but the HP Prime uses colors and another different operating system whose instructions make a program bigger than 50g. For some reason the 50g were made with the ability to use memory card and not thinking that the user had to use a smartphone or something similar to carry their data. The nSpire of Texas has 100 MB for the user to store programs, photographs, documents, etc for their applications.
06-09-2017, 01:20 AM
Post: #11
 math7 Member Posts: 163 Joined: Feb 2017
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-08-2017 03:10 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:
(06-08-2017 10:11 AM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Yes, but can we store data in the flash memory

Yes. All user data is stored in flash and loaded as needed *on access*.

You can store data directly in your applications using AFiles and store up to the max of your flash. I'd not recommend filling it completely as things may behave unpredictably when out of space, but that happens with any computer.

If you find yourself running low on RAM, power off the calculator to save everything (to flash), and then reboot the calculator. That will unload any objects not in use.

The OS/Calculator application has a separate location where it is written at on flash to be loaded from on boot. Apart from that, it does not use the flash and ONLY user data exists on that flash chip.

Tim, Could you clarify this point further? Do you mean that we can use about 210MB of flash memory from HP Prime to save all our programs and applications? In what way is that done? When the (shift) + (Mem) key is pressed and then (Info) comes out about 18MB or 16MB or so. But it seems that you say that as you fill up the 18MB that is entering the 256MB of FLASH memory and that the calculator uses every time you turn 16MB of those 256 to work but I did not quite understand. Could you explain it more clearly?
06-09-2017, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 12-19-2017 08:51 PM by matthiaspaul.)
Post: #12
 matthiaspaul Senior Member Posts: 385 Joined: Jan 2015
RE: HP Prime micro sd
Either way, missing SDSC/SDHC card support remains an often mentioned downside of the Prime. It might make sense to limit data exchange capabilities on a device targetted for schools/pupils, but at the same time it makes the device less attractive for more advanced users, be it for "off-line" backup and "longtime" storage/logging, for storage of extra-large data items, or for easier data exchange with other devices without a need for USB.

Actually, I'm hoping for something like a "Prime Pro" in a number of years with added features:

* SDSC/SDHC card with FAT12/FAT16/FAT32 support
* optional capability to use standard AA or AAA batteries/NiMH rechargeables. Available capacity of standard batteries will significantly increase over the years, whereas proprietary Lithium-Ion battery packs will be impossible to obtain new in five to ten years.
* built-in beeper
* selectable much larger display fonts
* userRPL
* direct support for turns (360° = 2*pi rad = 400 gon = 1 turn) as a fourth angular mode (not only as a unit) in addition to degrees/radians/gons
* support for integer and floating-point numbers in any base 2 to 16
* support for special functions for computer scientists/programmers (including but not limited to all functions of the HP-16C)
* (even in decimal mode) optional number entry in binary E-notation (on double-press of EE or by using "B" for *2^ instead of "E" for *10^) and toggle display (single press of button) between decimal and binary scientific / engineering notation for easy ad-hoc conversion between SI and IEC prefixes (not only as unit prefixes, but for any displayed numbers)
* exponent shifting in scientific notation (+/-1) as well as in decimal (+/-3) and binary (+/-10) engineering notation
* full set of trigonometric / hyperbolic functions (as suggested in old thread)
* more detail-refined UI (as suggested in old thread)
* support for some kind of ASCII-based TIO codes to use instead of Unicode in source code (in order to "enter" Unicode characters on platforms not supporting them). At the minimum something like \nnnnn, where nnnnn is the code point of the Unicode character.
* bug-free operating system

Greetings,

Matthias

--
"Programs are poems for computers."
06-09-2017, 12:09 PM
Post: #13
 toml_12953 Senior Member Posts: 1,409 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP Prime micro sd
Here are my votes for what they're worth. I'd also like structures something like this:

struc mytype
a real;
b(4) real;
c string;
end;

local S mytype;
S.b(3):= 4; S.c:="Hello"; S.a:=92;
print(S.b(3)+" "+S.a+" "+S.c);

Tom L

(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * SDSC/SDHC card with FAT12/FAT16/FAT32 support
Yes!

* selectable much larger display fonts
I'm not that old yet but we should have many more fonts and sizes available in any case (no pun intended!)

* userRPL
As long as HPPL is still available!

* direct support for turns (360° = 2*pi rad = 400 gon = 1 turn) as a fourth angular mode (not only as a unit) in addition to degrees/radians/gons

Who uses turns? If they're used by a large number of people then it would be worth it. If the number of users is relatively small, then no. It doesn't seem like using grads (gons) and dividing or multiplying by 400 to convert back and forth as necessary is too much trouble.

* support for integer and floating-point numbers in any base 2 to 16
Yes!

* support for special functions for computer scientists/programmers (including but not limited to all functions of the HP-16C)
Yes!

* (even in decimal mode) optional number entry in binary E-notation (on double-press of EE or by using "B" for *2^ instead of "E" for *10^) and toggle display (single press of button) between decimal and binary scientific / engineering notation for easy ad-hoc conversion between SI and IEC prefixes (not only as unit prefixes, but for any displayed numbers)
Yes! (I'd want the B rather than double press of EE.)

* exponent shifting in scientific notation (+/-1) as well as in decimal (+/-3) and binary (+/-10) engineering notation
Yes!

* full set of trigonometric / hyperbolic functions (as suggested in old thread)
Yes!

* more detail-refined UI (as suggested in old thread)
How so?

* bug-free operating system
Yes! (but good luck with that!)

Tom L
...other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?
06-10-2017, 01:47 AM
Post: #14
 math7 Member Posts: 163 Joined: Feb 2017
RE: HP Prime micro sd
According to what Tim Wessman said when adding data and applications and programs in the HP Prime these data and programs are recorded inside the "256 MB" of flash memory, and every time the calculator is turned on the data is extracted from this Flash memory and loaded into the RAM of approximately 17MB. Is this so or am I wrong? Someone else understood that? Because if it were then the Prime would have a fairly large memory for hundreds of applications and programs, but I do not know if I understood this wrong or not.
06-11-2017, 09:41 PM
Post: #15
 matthiaspaul Senior Member Posts: 385 Joined: Jan 2015
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * selectable much larger display fonts
I'm not that old yet but we should have many more fonts and sizes available in any case (no pun intended!)

(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * userRPL
As long as HPPL is still available!
Sure, I didn't mean to put away with HPPL.

(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * direct support for turns (360° = 2*pi rad = 400 gon = 1 turn) as a fourth angular mode (not only as a unit) in addition to degrees/radians/gons
Who uses turns? If they're used by a large number of people then it would be worth it. If the number of users is relatively small, then no. It doesn't seem like using grads (gons) and dividing or multiplying by 400 to convert back and forth as necessary is too much trouble.
I consider turns to be some kind of "missing piece" among degrees, gons and radians. Each of these modes can be substituted by another to some extent, yet one mode is more convenient to use than another depending on the application.

While turn is an established angular unit, it certainly isn't in mainstream use. I'm sure more people would start using it if it were readily available as a mode on calculators. So far, they are using turns implicitly.

I implemented a turns mode in a software calculator I wrote decades ago, and I found it quite useful - that's why I propose this to be implemented in other calculators as well.

In engineering I regularly find myself converting angular values to some internal representation and back. For this, the value gets normalized by dividing it by 2*pi, 360 or 400, then it is multiplied by some factor (say 256, if it needs to be stored in a byte). This can be shortened if the normalization could be skipped (by working in turns instead of one of the other three modes) or if the normalization could at least be simplified (using a set of built-in conversion functions or relying on implicit conversions alongside angular mode switches).

(Of course, it would be even easier, if one could work in target units right from the start, but this very much depends on the actual problem to be solved. One user might need binary radians where a full circle is 256 brads, another might prefer an angular mil mode where full circle corresponds with either 6000, 6283, 6300, or 6400 amils - I can think of at least a dozen other more or less useful units as well. Since not all of them can be implemented in a calculator mode realistically, I suggest to at least implement one "neutral" one which can be converted into the other ones easily - turns. Even more flexible would be an angular mode with a user-definable factor, set to 1 for turns by default.)

I also think that a turns mode could have some educational value when discussing circles and trigonometric functions in math education. I have seen pupils who had difficulties trying to understand the significance of values like 360 or 400. Things might be easier to understand for them using 1 instead. After all, 1 turn nicely corresponds with 100 percent as well.

(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * (even in decimal mode) optional number entry in binary E-notation (on double-press of EE or by using "B" for *2^ instead of "E" for *10^) and toggle display (single press of button) between decimal and binary scientific / engineering notation for easy ad-hoc conversion between SI and IEC prefixes (not only as unit prefixes, but for any displayed numbers)
Yes! (I'd want the B rather than double press of EE.)
I see that my statement wasn't clear. I want both, of course. B-notation should be accepted by the system whereever E-notation is supported already, and double-pressing the EEX key in direct number entry could be a shortcut in the UI frontend to input the B (like: first press of EEX displays ...E_ (with _ symbolizing the cursor), a second press of EEX would change this to ...B_ and so on).

Some other hotkey would be needed for the +/- exponent shifting feature and for the decimal/binary exponent display toggle, and depending on if this would be (somehow) bound to the EEX key as well or if a separate ENG key (as on Casios) would be available, the best implementation very much depends on the target calculator.

(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * exponent shifting in scientific notation (+/-1) as well as in decimal (+/-3) and binary (+/-10) engineering notation
Yes!

(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * full set of trigonometric / hyperbolic functions (as suggested in old thread)
Yes!

(06-09-2017 12:09 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(06-09-2017 11:12 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  * more detail-refined UI (as suggested in old thread)
How so?
See:

Greetings,

Matthias

--
"Programs are poems for computers."
06-12-2017, 01:26 AM
Post: #16
 toml_12953 Senior Member Posts: 1,409 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: HP Prime micro sd
(06-11-2017 09:41 PM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  Things might be easier to understand for them using 1 instead. After all, 1 turn nicely corresponds with 100 percent as well.

Greetings,

Matthias

Hmmm. In all my years of study, the figure 100 percent never came up once on any of my tests!

Tom L

Tom L
...other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?
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