[VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
07-15-2018, 09:03 PM
Post: #21
 Valentin Albillo Senior Member Posts: 607 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
.
Hi, Gerson:

Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:I haven't trodden any of the hard (and beautiful) paths you all have done. Instead, I took an unallowed (according to Valentin's rules) and dull shortcut.

I never said any of that, Gerson, and I didn't stablish any rules whatsoever so you hardly could've taken "an unallowed { VA: by whom ? not me ... } and dull shortcut."

• "Your results are correct, congratulations, but without explaining why would you compute the numerators and denominators that way it all seems a "magic trick" unrelated to the problem at hand as the relation to the integral seems shrouded in mystery"
because until you posted your very detailed (thank you !) rationale for your direct computation that was exactly the case and none was the wiser.

Thanks again for your long and very interesting recent post detailing the process you followed to get your results, that's exactly the spirit and the way for interested people to learn interesting things but in the future please do not credit me with statements, whether direct or implied, which I didn't actually make.

Regards.
V.
.

Find All My HP-related Materials here:  Valentin Albillo's HP Collection

07-15-2018, 09:22 PM
Post: #22
 John Keith Senior Member Posts: 601 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-15-2018 07:53 PM)DavidM Wrote:  Gerson's method above is also how I would do it if the ListExt library isn't available.

Using the ListExt library:

« 0 m LMRPT »

Creating a list of 1000 0s with the CON method: 0.77s
Creating the same list with the ListExt command: 0.07s

Either should give reasonable performance in this scenario.

Or equivalently, using only built-in commands:

<< 0 m NDUPN ->LIST >>
07-15-2018, 09:55 PM
Post: #23
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-15-2018 09:03 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  .
Hi, Gerson:

Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:I haven't trodden any of the hard (and beautiful) paths you all have done. Instead, I took an unallowed (according to Valentin's rules) and dull shortcut.

I never said any of that, Gerson, and I didn't stablish any rules whatsoever so you hardly could've taken "an unallowed { VA: by whom ? not me ... } and dull shortcut."

• "Your results are correct, congratulations, but without explaining why would you compute the numerators and denominators that way it all seems a "magic trick" unrelated to the problem at hand as the relation to the integral seems shrouded in mystery"
because until you posted your very detailed (thank you !) rationale for your direct computation that was exactly the case and none was the wiser.

Hello, Valentin,

Sorry for the misunderstanding! No, that was not what has elicited my comment about my possible infringement to your rules, which basically are “not googling for solutions”. Since I did google for an OEIS sequence, which eventually led me to a solution, it later appeared to me that I had done something that might be considered “illegal” or “unallowed”.
Thanks for your always interesting problems and solutions!

Gerson.
07-15-2018, 10:16 PM
Post: #24
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-15-2018 09:22 PM)John Keith Wrote:  Or equivalently, using only built-in commands:

<< 0 m NDUPN ->LIST >>

Very nice! Shorter and faster when compared to my suggestion (about 8 and 5 times on the 49G and on the 50g, respectively.
07-16-2018, 12:31 AM (This post was last modified: 07-16-2018 12:53 AM by Gerson W. Barbosa.)
Post: #25
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-15-2018 06:26 PM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:  This RPL program calculates the coefficients:
Code:
«   « → m     « { 1 m } 0 CON OBJ→ DROP m →LIST     »   » → n ZEROS   « { 0 1 } 2 n     FOR k DUP SIZE → a s       « k ZEROS EVAL a +         a 1 k SUB 0 + REVLIST s 1 - ZEROS EVAL +         ADD         a k 1 + s SUB k 2 * ZEROS EVAL +         ADD       »     NEXT   » »

Thanks! We now can use it to compute the integrals much faster than I was able to before:

%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.);
\<< DUPDUP DUPDUP * + 2 / 2 MOD
IF NOT
THEN
\<<
\<< \-> m
\<< 0 m NDUPN \->LIST
\>>
\>> \-> n ZEROS
\<< { 0 1 } 2 n
FOR k DUP SIZE \-> a s
\<< k ZEROS EVAL a + a 1 k SUB 0 + REVLIST s 1 - ZEROS EVAL + ADD a k 1 + s SUB k 2 * ZEROS EVAL + ADD
\>>
NEXT
\>>
\>> EVAL 1 GET 2 ROT 2 - ^ / \pi *
ELSE DROP2 0
END
\>>

(I've only replaced { 1 m } 0 CON OBJ→ DROP m →LIST with John Keith's contribution elsewhere in this thread).

20 -> '1909/65536*π', after 15.1 seconds (previously 118.4 seconds)

And here is a list containing the results of the integrals, starting from n = 1 up to n = 71:

{ 0 0 '1/2*π' '1/4*π' 0 0 '1/8*π' '7/64*π' 0 0 '35/512*π' '31/512*π' 0 0 '361/8192*π' '657/16384*π' 0 0 '2055/65536*π' '1909/65536*π' 0 0 '24955/1048576*π' '46923/2097152*π' 0 0 '316301/16777216*π' '299973/16777216*π' 0 0 '4136805/268435456*π' '15796439/1073741824*π' 0 0 '13853361/1073741824*π' '26585247/2147483648*π' 0 0 '756388295/68719476736*π' '182188585/17179869184*π' 0 0 '20965992017/2199023255552*π' '20268008015/2199023255552*π' 0 0 '294245741167/35184372088832*π' '570497115729/70368744177664*π' 0 0 '4173319332859/562949953421312*π' '4055330794367/562949953421312*π' 0 0 '59723919552183/9007199254740992*π' '58153763705741/9007199254740992*π' 0 0 '430665931945033/72057594037927936*π' '840170667413757/144115188075855872*π' 0 0 '12505857230438737/2305843009213693952*π' '12217503312833669/2305843009213693952*π' 0 0 '182650875111521033/36893488147419103232*π' '44670833701814021/9223372036854775808*π' 0 0 '335205518724079925/73786976294838206464*π' }

Just a few minutes on the emulator.

Thanks again for providing both the program and an explanation why this works!

Gerson.

PS: Here is the result for n = 100, in case someone wants to check it :-)

'432756001487181254158446581/158456325028528675187087900672*π' (399 seconds, on the emulator)
07-16-2018, 03:27 AM
Post: #26
 Thomas Klemm Senior Member Posts: 1,447 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-15-2018 09:22 PM)John Keith Wrote:  Or equivalently, using only built-in commands:

<< 0 m NDUPN ->LIST >>
That's what I was originally looking for but it appears to be missing on the HP-48.

(07-16-2018 12:31 AM)Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:  We now can use it to compute the integrals much faster than I was able to before.

If you want to create a list of all values you better do that within the FOR-loop:
Code:
«   « 0 SWAP NDUPN →LIST   » → n ZEROS   « { } { 0 1 } 2 n     FOR k DUP SIZE → a s       « π a HEAD * 2 k 3 - ^ / +         k ZEROS EVAL a +         a 1 k SUB 0 + REVLIST s 1 - ZEROS EVAL +         ADD         a k 1 + s SUB k 2 * ZEROS EVAL +         ADD       »     NEXT     π SWAP HEAD * 2 n 2 - ^ / +   » »

Kind regards
Thomas
07-16-2018, 01:18 PM
Post: #27
 John Keith Senior Member Posts: 601 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-16-2018 03:27 AM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:
(07-15-2018 09:22 PM)John Keith Wrote:  Or equivalently, using only built-in commands:

<< 0 m NDUPN ->LIST >>
That's what I was originally looking for but it appears to be missing on the HP-48.

My mistake, I was assuming you were using the HP 50g.
07-18-2018, 12:36 AM
Post: #28
 Valentin Albillo Senior Member Posts: 607 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
.
Hi, Gerson:

Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:PS: Here is the result for n = 100, in case someone wants to check it :-)

'432756001487181254158446581/158456325028528675187087900672*π' (399 seconds, on the emulator)

Checked Ok. I first get this:

I(100) = 0.008579923047087255289962132033491848687575251602203717706253624498143794111835​18043218667675290830524763068668295630334627497296

which then gets recognized as:

432756001487181254158446581 / 158456325028528675187087900672 * Pi

in perfect agreement with your result. In return, will you please confirm my result for N=200, namely:

I(200) = 195115902556687929766460554749767560813889646699192346811 / 200867255532373784442745261542645325315275374222849104412672 * Pi

Regards.
V.
.

Find All My HP-related Materials here:  Valentin Albillo's HP Collection

07-18-2018, 03:07 AM
Post: #29
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-18-2018 12:36 AM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  In return, will you please confirm my result for N=200, namely:

I(200) = 195115902556687929766460554749767560813889646699192346811 / 200867255532373784442745261542645325315275374222849104412672 * Pi

I am sorry, but I fear the HP 50g is not up to this task (at least with the current algorithm ). I(100) has required a clean emulated 50g and almost seven minutes, so I won’t even try. Anyway, the first seven significant digits of my approximate result on Free42, 3.05164078210624e-3, agree with your numerical result for I(200).
Not meaning to abuse your good will, would you please check how many significant digits I get right for N=20000?

3.06979593309e-6

Thank you very much!

Gerson.
07-18-2018, 06:17 AM
Post: #30
 Werner Senior Member Posts: 525 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
For those who want NDUPN on their 48:

straightforward
Code:
\<< \-> N \<< 0. N START DUP NEXT DROP2 N \>> \>>

without local variables
Code:
\<< 0. OVER START OVER SWAP NEXT ROT ROT DROP2 \>>

fast for large N
Code:
\<<   \-> n   \<<     1 2 n     FOR i       DUPN i EVAL DUP     STEP     n -      IF DUP 0 <     THEN NEG DUPN      ELSE DROPN END     IFTE     n   \>> \>>

Cheers, Werner
07-18-2018, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 07-18-2018 05:35 PM by ijabbott.)
Post: #31
 ijabbott Senior Member Posts: 910 Joined: Jul 2015
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
Is there a neat formula for just the constant term when converting the product to a sum? I tried Thomas Klemm's spiky function for N=20001 and it didn't like it very much! (Probably because it stores the coefficients for all the sequences up to N, eating lots of memory in the process.)

— Ian Abbott
07-18-2018, 11:39 PM
Post: #32
 Valentin Albillo Senior Member Posts: 607 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
.
Hi, Gerson:

(07-18-2018 03:07 AM)Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:  Not meaning to abuse your good will, would you please check how many significant digits I get right for N=20000?

No, sorry, I can't verify your alleged numeric result for N=20,000, because:
• f(x) = Cos(x)*Cos(2*x)*...*Cos(20000*x) is not just 'spiky', it's "solid-area" spiky, with tens of thousands of extremely thin spikes crowding the [0,2*Pi] interval so much that very few samples, if any, fall on each individual spike even using a million samples. Thus, I'd have to use tens of millions of samples to compute the integral in [0,2*Pi] to any useful accuracy.

• f(x) is the product of 20,000 cosines, each of which is a number with absolute value <= 1 (it's exactly 1 only at x=0 and various fractions of Pi, none of which are ever sampled) and with average absolute value 2/Pi, so f(x) is typically ~ (2/Pi)^20000 ~ 10^(-3922) for almost every x in [0,2*Pi].

This means I'd need to compute each sample using at least 4,000 decimal digits of precision, i.e.: evaluate the product of 20,000 cosines, each of them computed to 4,000 decimal digits, for *each* and every one of the many million samples. Trying to use less decimal digits, say 1,000 or 2,000, would result in f(x) evaluating to 0 for every x sampled, as would the integral itself.

Needless to say, computing I(20000) this way would require a truly humongous amount of time, certainly it would for my POPS (Pretty Old Pretty Slow) system, and regrettably I can't allocate that much running time to this task.

Anyway, on a more feasible scale and in case it still might be useful to you, this is what a sufficiently accurate algorithm should return for N=1,000:

I(1000) = 0.0002742581536       (all digits shown are correct)

Regards.
V.
.

Find All My HP-related Materials here:  Valentin Albillo's HP Collection

07-19-2018, 12:27 AM
Post: #33
 Thomas Klemm Senior Member Posts: 1,447 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-18-2018 05:32 PM)ijabbott Wrote:  Is there a neat formula for just the constant term when converting the product to a sum?

From A058377:
Quote:FORMULA
a(n) is half the coefficient of q^0 in product('(q^(-k)+q^k)', 'k'=1..n) for n >= 1.

Thus I doubt there is a "neat formula".
However here's a table of n, a(n) for n = 1..3342

From this we can calculate the value of I(1000) in accordance with Valentin's result:
Code:
>>> pi * 233854293495526890065238464248235751245240100131956760799187425375936277246​90522222877561004003130584906467004224646067900127143577719083836763175003199331​52618246357256959031783393818502766544769519367557819335776078670054986664044830​87885857942123647648138674089597298681941927332215904466338708 / 2**998 0.00027425815360837894

Since I had trouble with the Python program with bigger numbers I implemented it in Clojure:
Code:
(defn zeros [k]   (replicate k 0)) (defn spiky [n]   (loop [k 2 a '(0 1)]     (if (> k n) (first a)          (let [s (count a)               [b c] (split-at k a)               u (concat (zeros k) a)               v (concat (conj (reverse b) 0) (zeros (dec s)))               w (concat c (zeros (* 2 k)))]            (recur (inc k) (map +' u v w))))))
You may notice similarities to the implementation in RPL.

It's fast for n=100, takes a couple of seconds for n=200 and multiple minutes for n=1000.
I've tried it for n=2000 and after a while that felt like eternity the correct result was given.
From these measurements I would assume that it would take days or even weeks to calculate the value for n=20,000. Thus I refrained from trying.

Kind regards
Thomas
07-19-2018, 01:22 AM
Post: #34
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-19-2018 12:27 AM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:
(07-18-2018 05:32 PM)ijabbott Wrote:  Is there a neat formula for just the constant term when converting the product to a sum?

From A058377:
Quote:FORMULA
a(n) is half the coefficient of q^0 in product('(q^(-k)+q^k)', 'k'=1..n) for n >= 1.

Thus I doubt there is a "neat formula".

There is an asymptotic formula, but it doesn't help much:

https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL...ivan8.html

(((n^2+n)/2+1) mod 2)*sqrt(6/pi)*2^(n-1)/(n*sqrt(n))

n = 3 -> 1.06385 (1)
n = 4 -> 1.38198 (1)
n = 8 -> 7.81764 (7)
n = 11 -> 38.7893 (35)
n = 27 -> 661051 (632602)
n = 1000 -> 2.34135e296 (2.3385429e296)

A small correction might help a bit:

(((n^2+n)/2+1) mod 2)* sqrt(6/pi)*2^(n-1)*(1-6/(5*n)+21/(20*n^2)-1/(8*n^3)+3/n^4)/(n*sqrt(n))

n = 3 ->0.7969 (1)
n = 4 -> 1.07157 (1)
n = 8 -> 6.77707 (7)
n = 11 -> 34.8986 (35)
n = 27 -> 632623 (632602)
n = 1000 -> n = 1000 -> 2.33854293231e296 (2.33854293496e296)

Regards,

Gerson.
07-19-2018, 01:31 AM
Post: #35
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-18-2018 11:39 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  Needless to say, computing I(20000) this way would require a truly humongous amount of time, certainly it would for my POPS (Pretty Old Pretty Slow) system, and regrettably I can't allocate that much running time to this task.

Anyway, on a more feasible scale and in case it still might be useful to you, this is what a sufficiently accurate algorithm should return for N=1,000:

I(1000) = 0.0002742581536       (all digits shown are correct)

It has been useful!

On Free42 I get 0.000274258153298, which is good to 9 significant digits. Since that's based on an asymptotic formula, the result for N=20,000 should be even more accurate.

Thanks again,

Gerson.
07-19-2018, 09:07 PM
Post: #36
 Valentin Albillo Senior Member Posts: 607 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
.
Hi, Gerson:

(07-19-2018 01:31 AM)Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:
(07-18-2018 11:39 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  Anyway, on a more feasible scale and in case it still might be useful to you, this is what a sufficiently accurate algorithm should return for N=1,000:
I(1000) = 0.0002742581536       (all digits shown are correct)

It has been useful!
On Free42 I get 0.000274258153298, which is good to 9 significant digits. Since that's based on an asymptotic formula, the result for N=20,000 should be even more accurate.

Seems likely. As I said in some previous post, I don't use any theoretical way to compute the numerators S(n) which, when divided by the respective powers of 2 (and times Pi), directly give the value of the integral. I simply compute the integral itself numerically using a quadrature algorithm, which for the case N=1,000 goes as follows (9 iterations):

0    0.000319732675251708806710904860429290813827540315
1    0.000293664662073707698824357734758191408742496989
2    0.000272327835887749444493527986927062286291843477
3    0.000274034638824020953737856637483929708504259670
4    0.000274259426644445675375095867663504951685809235
5    0.000274258154414552357469096400753858778167613322
6    0.000274258153608375557632839196888728683604929730
7    0.000274258153608378926807741119028301299681276600
8    0.000274258153608378926807734432669808007752908528
9    0.000274258153608378926807734432669808007979394750

So we get I(1000) = 0.000274258153608378926807734432669808007979394750 (all 48 decimal digits shown are correct)

Applying a multilevel extrapolation scheme to those iterations quickly gives in excess of 100 correct decimal digits. These quadrature-provided results are useful to check that the S(n)-provided ones are correct.

Regards.
V.

Find All My HP-related Materials here:  Valentin Albillo's HP Collection

07-20-2018, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 07-20-2018 09:41 PM by Albert Chan.)
Post: #37
 Albert Chan Senior Member Posts: 1,152 Joined: Jul 2018
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-10-2018 10:10 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  Hi all, welcome to my SRC#001 - Spiky Integral:

Here I'll deal with a real-world math problem not of my own making but which did appear at a certain math competition. The problem introduces this "spiky" integral:

I(N) = $$\int_{0}^{2\pi} cos(x)\, cos(2x)\, cos(3x)\, ...\, cos(Nx)\, dx$$

and asks  for which values of  N  in the interval  [1,10]  does  I(N)  have a non-zero value.

It then specifies that the result must include proof of correctness

It seems the problem is easier to solve with symmetry.

let F = cos(x) cos(2x) cos(3x) ... cos(Nx)

I(N) = $$\int_{0}^{2 \pi} F dx$$ = 2 $$\int_{0}^{\pi} F dx$$ = 2 $$\int_{0}^{\pi/2} F dx$$ + 2 $$\int_{\pi/2}^{\pi} F dx$$

If F is symmetric around x = Pi/2, the two terms are same sized and same sign.

A simple test is when x=Pi, F=1, which imply even number of odd values between 1 to N:
(since cos(odd Pi) = -1, even numbers of such terms restored the symmetry)

--> If N mod 4 = 0 or 3, I(N) = 4 $$\int_{0}^{\pi/2} F dx$$

Since F is maximized (= 1.0) when x=0, above should always be positive.
As N increases, F spike is "thinner", thus smaller I(N), but still above 0

If odd number of odd values between 1 and N, symmetry is flipped.
The two terms still have same size, but opposite sign, cancelling each other.

--> If N mod 4 = 1 or 2, I(N) = 0

So, for interval [1, 10] and non-zero I(N), N = 3,4,7,8
07-20-2018, 08:06 PM (This post was last modified: 07-21-2018 03:41 AM by Albert Chan.)
Post: #38
 Albert Chan Senior Member Posts: 1,152 Joined: Jul 2018
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-18-2018 03:07 AM)Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:  would you please check how many significant digits I get right for N=20000?

3.06979593309e-6

Let F= cos(x) cos(2x) cos(3x) ... cos(N x)

Since N mod 4 = 20000 mod 4 = 0, I(N) = $$\int_{0}^{2 \pi} F dx$$ = 4 $$\int_{0}^{\pi/2} F dx$$

For big N, integral is dominated mostly by the area of spike:

I(N) ~ 4 $$\int_{0}^{\pi /(2N)} F dx$$

I did the integral in Python (plain float):

I(20000) ~ 4 * 7.67448983276e-07 = 3.0697959331e-06

Both values agreed each other, to 11 digits.

Comment:
it is not necessary to sum the full spike area.
For x = Pi / (20N) (one tenth of spike base), F = 1.547e-36, which contribution little to the sum.
With this tighter base, I(20000) still converge to the same value, but only take 16 sec (instead of 145 sec)

BTW, my computer is 20+ years old Dell P3, modern computer may only take few seconds.
07-21-2018, 04:06 AM
Post: #39
 Gerson W. Barbosa Senior Member Posts: 1,343 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-20-2018 08:06 PM)Albert Chan Wrote:  For big N, integral is dominated mostly by the area of spike:

I(N) ~ 4 $$\int_{0}^{\pi /(2N)} F dx$$

I did the integral in Python (plain float):

I(20000) ~ 4 * 7.67448983276e-07 = 3.0697959331e-06

Both values agreed each other, to 11 digits.

Thanks both for the I(20000) result and for another interesting approach. These results might be useful to improve the correction terms of the approximation formula.
07-21-2018, 04:00 PM
Post: #40
 Albert Chan Senior Member Posts: 1,152 Joined: Jul 2018
RE: [VA] SRC#001 - Spiky Integral
(07-21-2018 04:06 AM)Gerson W. Barbosa Wrote:  Thanks both for the I(20000) result and for another interesting approach. These results might be useful to improve the correction terms of the approximation formula.

Hi Gerson,

I am a bit late to the game, and just realized your number is also an approximation.
So, both numbers matching are nice, but probably not good enough.

Instead, I tried I(1000) ~ 4 $$\int_{0}^{\pi /2000} F dx$$ = 0.00027425815360837926

From Valentin Albillo last post, my estimate match correct values, to 15 digits
Comparing values in binary form, accuracy is even better, mine is just 6 ULP over !

Thanks Valentin.

I am amazed at how your integration function work.
You mentioned the problems of it computing I(20000).
Shrinking the integral range 800,000 times may help: (0 to Pi/400000) instead of (0, 2 Pi)
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