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Pls Give Advise - Is this Fair
Message #1 Posted by Efrain Vas Hochfarber on 28 May 2002, 2:36 p.m.

I'm dealing with a Buyer that won my auction on Ebay...pls visit the link below:

The Buyer is a very kind person but we have a difference in opinion about the payment options. On the item description, I excluded PayPal as a valid payment option. But my Buyer would prefer to use PayPal instead of any of the accepted payment methods indicated on the Acution, such as money order, cashier check or personal check. I indicated to the Buyer that I would take PayPal if he pays the fees. And this is the problem for the Buyer, because according to his opinion, I shouldn't charge him fees.

What do you think about this fair? Could someone pls offer a wise advise that can allow us to settle this difference. Txs in advance...Efrain

Re: Pls Give Advise - Is this Fair
Message #2 Posted by on 28 May 2002, 3:43 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Efrain Vas Hochfarber

You are both known people of this community.

Normally such an issue should never come up to this forum.

Actually both of you are quarrelling on triffles, ie : - one one side the payement of patypal fees which are not that important on $ 152.50 - on the other side not exactly complying the sales terms.

Both of you have a 0 neg. feedback and I'm not sure a few dollars differences are worth a neg. feedback.

My suggestion is to ask buyer to send money ein cash by air registered mail = 10 days max, cots about 5.00, to scan post office registered mail receipt , send it so seller, who'll immediately ship the item. Woth this solution - buyer getis is purchase sent immediately - seller is sure to receive his money - the transaction is completed at lowest cost - then EVERYONE IS HAPPY !

But, with paypal, the SELLER has no protection at all
Message #3 Posted by Gene on 28 May 2002, 10:26 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by


A buyer who pays with paypal can tell paypal a month afterward that they were sent something other than what they purchased and then paypal will CHARGEBACK the seller.

The seller is out the merchandise and out his/her money.

I no longer take paypal at all because of this behavior by and the potential abuse by ebay bidders with little or no feedback.

Just an FYI.

This is Absolutely CORRECT!
Message #4 Posted by Mike on 29 May 2002, 8:28 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Gene

I have asked this directly to PayPal and they verify that a bidder can DEMAND a chargeback, a month later. Seller has no choice in this matter.

Further, if the seller disputes the matter, PayPal will simply take the money out of the bank account or credit card that is on file. Again, verified with PayPal

Also, there is no way for PayPal to verify that the bidder actually sent the merchandise back. All the bidder has to do is send a package that can be a brick or a pile of dirt and get a delivery confirmation. All that PayPal requires, from the bidder, is a delivery confirmation that a package was sent.

PayPal is very risky for sellers. Bidders, on the other hand can check out the seller before they ever decide to bid. That is their protection.

Re: This is Absolutely CORRECT!
Message #5 Posted by Ellis Easley on 30 May 2002, 10:26 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by Mike

Could it be that Paypal's advantage to buyers balances Ebay's advantage to sellers? I don't use Paypal for a somewhat silly, personal reason, although I did use it when it first started. BTW, I've never sold anything, I'm just an Ebay buyer. I like the new "Billpoint", how does that compare to Paypal as far as cost and risk to the seller? If a seller doesn't offer it, I prefer to send a money order even though it costs extra and takes a little more time. I've used "Bidpay", which charges you to mail a money order to the seller, twice for purchases from Canada. The cheaper deal for amounts under $50 is comparable to a USPS money order to Canada. Also, the seller in both cases had an arrangement with Bidpay where they ship as soon as Bidpay tells them the money order is in the mail.

Paypal seems to be the most frequent option offered. I've seen a few "Paypal only" auctions and this thread is the second one I've seen about a buyer who wanted to use Paypal even though it wasn't offered. I imagine the reason so many sellers offer it is because so many buyers want to use it. Could it be that the buyer's advantage is the reason it is so successful?

Re: This is Absolutely CORRECT!
Message #6 Posted by John K. (US) on 30 May 2002, 7:51 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Ellis Easley

The reason many sellers prefer PayPal for eBay auctions is that, if you have a business PayPal account and generate enough volume, the fee carged by PayPal drops to 0.7% + $0.30 per transaction, which is amazingly low for a merchant account. Much cheaper (for a small business) than trying to go through a merchant services organization (MSO).

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, charge-backs on PayPal are a real problem. No matter how you slice it, the risk of charge-backs is simply a fact of life if you want to accept credit cards. The rub, if you're using PayPal, is that you are not the holder of the merchant account -- PayPal is. A seller can't take up the issue with the card issuer directly. Any action must be taken by PayPal on the seller's behalf. But, since they are generally unwilling to do so, caveat caupo...

It's really up to you
Message #7 Posted by Jim L on 28 May 2002, 4:11 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Efrain Vas Hochfarber

You specified what payment methods you would accept. He has no right to expect anything different. You're already doing more than you need to by offering to take paypal on your terms.

Re: Pls Give Advise - Is this Fair
Message #8 Posted by Raymond Hellstern (Germany) on 28 May 2002, 4:55 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Efrain Vas Hochfarber

Hi Efrain,

I wonder if 'hp-collection' has problems taking the fees, because he doesn't seem to have problems paying high prices for 'HP' items;-)

If the PayPal fees are a few bucks, just forget about them, if they're higher (above ~$5), I'd suggest either of you take 50% of them.

the other options are insisting on the terms of payment you set for the auction, or let him send cash, which worked well for me many times.

If none of the above will fit, I'd cancel the deal.

BTW: On eBay Germany (and maybe Switzerland, too) it's forbidden to charge the buyer even part of the eBay fees. But since the fees you mentioned are *not* for eBay, there shouldn't be a problem, and Matthias should understand that.



Re: Pls Give Advise - Is this Fair
Message #9 Posted by Matthias Wehrli on 29 May 2002, 12:36 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Efrain Vas Hochfarber

Everything is ok. It's realy my fault: I didn't realize Efrain does not take paypal. If he alloweds me to pay through paypal now this is gentle and I have to pay the fee. I excuse myself for this missunderstanding. I didn't want to blame someone..


Re: Pls Give Advise - Is this Fair
Message #10 Posted by Mike on 29 May 2002, 8:19 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Efrain Vas Hochfarber

First, let me say that I have dealt with hp-collector and he is a good, reputable bidder. My comments are in general and not aimed at him.

You are the seller. You set the terms.

If the bidder wants different terms, he has two choices. 1) Negotiate them before the auction ends 2) Go to a different auction

You are not obliged to let bidders dictate after the auction is over. If you don't want to absorbe the selling fees, don't take PayPal. It is totally fair for you to decline to use PayPal.

Most bidders like PayPal because they don't have to pay fees. I see this all the time. But you DO NOT have to let bidders dictate terms.

But, there is one other thing you should know about PayPal. PayPal is very risky for the seller. It protects the bidder but not the seller.

It is possible for the seller to pay with PayPal and demand a chargeback, against your return policy. You will have no choice but to give the return, if the bidder pays with Credit Card.

There are many legitimate reasons for not having a return policy but with PayPal that option is taken out of your hands.


This gets a bit sticky. If you don't list PayPal, you might be able to negotiate the fees. If you list PayPal, you may not be able to charge a fee.

eBays policy on surcharges

Payment Surcharges

"Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item."

Then, they list 3 ways that you may charge a fee and things like PayPal, checks or credit cards are not in the three.

It may be that if you list PayPal, technically, you may not be able to charge a fee.

I have heard of eBay cancelling auctions for people trying to charge fees for processing checks.

I do know that people try to charge fees all the time for PayPal. Personally, I would NEVER advertize PayPal in an auction.

Re: Pls Give Advise - Is this Fair
Message #11 Posted by Chris Catotti on 31 May 2002, 1:18 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Mike

I accept PayPal, but then I will accept almost anything (I prefere to stay away from personal checks, but if requested, I usually do). I accept cash (US Dollars, Euros, or British Pounds), Money Orders, BidPay, PayPal, and for low-dollar items I accept unused US Postage Stamps (self-adhesive prefferred).

Because Credit Card agreements forbid charging more for credit than cash, organizations like PayPal have no choice but to forbid the seller charging the buyer the extra cost. I use to do shipping at actual postage, but now add a dollar extra to help defray fees. Anyone asking for PayPal fees to be paid by the buyer is violating PayPal and Credit Card rules. On the other hand, if I am the buyer of an item from Europe, and the listing says essentially "ship to Europe Only", I voluntarily include approximately the PayPal fee, because I have inconvienced the seller, and I know he is not allowed to ask for the fees.

Thank You
Message #12 Posted by Efrain Vas Hochfarber on 1 June 2002, 9:55 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Efrain Vas Hochfarber

I would like to thank everyone who provided advise about this Thibaut, Gene, Mike, Ellis, John, Jim, Raymond and Chris. But special thanks go to the Buyer because he came forward as soon as he realized the mix up. The buyer is a nice person and also a man of honor. Txs again...Efrain

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