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Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
09-17-2017, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 09-17-2017 09:41 AM by pier4r.)
Post: #1
Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
Disclaimer: I tried to search with google, but the word "prime" gets mangled with prime numbers that are often mentioned in this type of forums.

A thread similar to: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-7955 but for the prime in the prime section. Although here I will mostly ask questions.

First a huge thanks to jebem with his huge thread on prime documentation and resources, as well as thanks to all the contributors. I observed that even though several people exposed similar topics (for example introduction to programming) it is not true that "ah, it exist once, then it is not needed twice". Indeed the way to expose concepts varies always, therefore every explanation can be useful.

In particular I enjoyed so far the Han explanations, although the last update was in 2014.

Questions:
- Aside from built in commands (that are flexible but non that much like the 50g), does anyone know robust community libraries that provide list and/or string processing? I found in my quick searches only this: http://www.hpcalc.org/details/7785 (I cannot say if it is good or not given only one version) .
- Is there a sort of AUR (advanced user reference) ? I have only the prime user guide that although not bad, it is pretty dry about all the commands in the prime.


Thanks for the answers, surely more questions will come.

PS: I bought the prime App in May 2017 but never used it since then. Yesterday I tested with a quick add loop (a for) and on a nvidia shield k1 2014. It goes through 10 million additions in 7 seconds. Quite quick (newRPL on a computer did it in 2 seconds).
Since newRPL is a nice project but I still need some time to get used to it (especially because I need to open another computer to develop with it) I realized that the HP prime may be able to cover - for the moment - what userRPL cannot. At least with my style of programming.

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09-17-2017, 10:42 AM
Post: #2
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
Quote: - Aside from built in commands (that are flexible but non that much like the 50g), does anyone know robust community libraries that provide list and/or string processing? I found in my quick searches only this: http://www.hpcalc.org/details/7785 (I cannot say if it is good or not given only one version) .
- Is there a sort of AUR (advanced user reference) ? I have only the prime user guide that although not bad, it is pretty dry about all the commands in the prime.
I look up everything I need using the built-in help, quite reliable and always available.
Arno
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09-17-2017, 11:29 AM
Post: #3
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 09:38 AM)pier4r Wrote:  Questions:
- Aside from built in commands (that are flexible but non that much like the 50g), does anyone know robust community libraries that provide list and/or string processing? I found in my quick searches only this: http://www.hpcalc.org/details/7785 (I cannot say if it is good or not given only one version) .

- Is there a sort of AUR (advanced user reference) ? I have only the prime user guide that although not bad, it is pretty dry about all the commands in the prime.

QA1> Specifically, what needed list operations are missing that cannot be accomplished with the current prime list set? (Please provide a related example problem.).

QA2> Good news! There is "sort of an AUR (advanced user reference)." It's located inside the calculator. It's more advanced than the user guide, which hasn't advanced much in awhile. While not the ultimate, it's a great starting point.

Having used several hp calculators since the hp41cv, the hp50g was the best, (for my use), until the prime. When I bought the prime, it wasn't long before I removed all of the batteries and put the hp50g back in it's box. It now sits in my closet. After several years since, nothing caused me to want to go back to it, and I have used some pretty significant applications in my hp prime experience in the mean time. The only foreseeable applications that ever might, have to do with I/O. Such as Modbus comm's, and the like. I'm retired now. Technology has moved on from the hp50g. USB and Serial comm's are not the medium of choice, so much, anymore. So, for me, the hp50g has become a closet widow, relic. You can have my share of RPN, I prefer the prime's hppl ease of programming. Understandably, Yoda mindsets may not.

Will there ever be another hpxx evolution in handheld calculating devices? Perhaps not, unless some super-calc derivative device undermines the cellphone all-in-one marketing model. I wonder what form factor that might look like?

-Dale-
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09-17-2017, 12:21 PM
Post: #4
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 11:29 AM)DrD Wrote:  QA1> Specifically, what needed list operations are missing that cannot be accomplished with the current prime list set? (Please provide a related example problem.).

QA2> Good news! There is "sort of an AUR (advanced user reference)." It's located inside the calculator. It's more advanced than the user guide, which hasn't advanced much in awhile. While not the ultimate, it's a great starting point.

Q1: for example see the commands on listExt of David or goferlist.

A practical example: get the head of a list and the tail separated. Sure I can code it (the list slicing in HPPL is nice) but if someone already did it and polished it, would be better because to reach the same level I need time.

Q2: Ok great that the advanced help is in the calculator. That is useful compared to the 50g. Anyway I normally like to use another screen to see the documentation rather than the calculator itself. Is there a way to extract this help?

Thanks for sharing your experience with the prime. But don't let the 50g take too much dust! It is pretty neat as device (if not, sell it [unless you value it even if in the drawer]), we never have enough of them!)

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09-17-2017, 01:05 PM
Post: #5
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 12:21 PM)pier4r Wrote:  Q2: Ok great that the advanced help is in the calculator. That is useful compared to the 50g. Anyway I normally like to use another screen to see the documentation rather than the calculator itself. Is there a way to extract this help?

Weii, on the 50g there re some Tools available: HelpedCat, HLP49 and SDIAG come to my mind, I have them attached to a user-key.
For the Prime you can have the Android app open an look for help there, I like the possibility to open help for a command even in editors.
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09-17-2017, 01:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-17-2017 01:18 PM by pier4r.)
Post: #6
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 01:05 PM)Arno K Wrote:  Weii, on the 50g there re some Tools available: HelpedCat, HLP49 and SDIAG come to my mind, I have them attached to a user-key.
For the Prime you can have the Android app open an look for help there, I like the possibility to open help for a command even in editors.
Arno

Oh I did not look in the "paced" help of the 50g. Good to know.

Anyway my flow is:

- I develop on a thinclient with real qwert(z) keyboard. There I also like to see the documentation. Then I pass the info to my android I copy it in the prime and I check the syntax/debug it.

So I may use the prime integrated help while I write on notepad++ but I was hoping also for an exported help somehow, to consume it on a PC or another tablet. (some advantages: easier to search. Bigger screen)

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09-17-2017, 01:54 PM
Post: #7
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
There is an Excel file available with an incomplete (by Erwin Ried, I think) reference for the Prime, maybe called PrimeHelp.
A nice feature would be an integrated development in the Connectivity Kit with help for everything. When it comes to writing programs for the Prime I usually have the Virtual Prime opened on the screen of my Surface Book and Connectivity Kit and Notepad++ on a connected second monitor, but that sending files from a to b to c is somehow troubling my nerves
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09-17-2017, 03:02 PM
Post: #8
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 09:38 AM)pier4r Wrote:  does anyone know robust community libraries that provide list and/or string processing?

I made my own LibList, here : http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-7001.html

It's not "robust community", as hp prime community is quite small itself.
This library is only for list processing for programs (prime already have many math oriented list functions).

It remind me, I made an AssociatedList Lib too (to reach items by keys, instead of indexes). I 'll try to publish it.

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09-17-2017, 03:55 PM (This post was last modified: 09-17-2017 03:58 PM by pier4r.)
Post: #9
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 03:02 PM)primer Wrote:  I made my own LibList, here : http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-7001.html

Thanks for sharing (another problem of community made solutions is "how easy can they be found") and indeed you cover some needed commands. Any chance that you share also the source code? (when not, no problem).


@arnoK: thanks for the answer. Personally I'd like an excel file even less than the help on the calculator. Well it means that , if the Hp prime that I bought is not limited to one android device, I will need another screen dedicated for the help.

I mean, I really love the idea that the calculator has all the needed explanations, but I would think that exporting those (that the prime can already process like a tree) in a .chm , .pdf or whatever other format, wouldn't be impossible for HP. Sometimes people like paper to take notes and co. I will deal with it though.

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09-17-2017, 05:01 PM
Post: #10
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
I think you can install the app on as many devices as you have, at least I am installing it on my old Samsung tablet which I usually use for reading. It works without any Problem, perhaps you can try to install it on a second device you own.
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09-17-2017, 05:11 PM
Post: #11
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 03:55 PM)pier4r Wrote:  I mean, I really love the idea that the calculator has all the needed explanations, but I would think that exporting those (that the prime can already process like a tree) in a .chm , .pdf or whatever other format, wouldn't be impossible for HP. Sometimes people like paper to take notes and co. I will deal with it though.

You may have a look here for a pdf of the on calculator help for release 10638

Cheers, Terje
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09-24-2017, 08:51 PM (This post was last modified: 09-24-2017 08:56 PM by pier4r.)
Post: #12
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
Is there a way, with the HP prime for android, to save the result to a text file on android and not only within the HP app ? (conversely, is there a way to read one?)

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09-24-2017, 10:44 PM
Post: #13
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
Without ever having really tried before, copy any of your lines in history (Prime Menu, second choice), open some text-editor (I took One-Note) and paste there.
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09-25-2017, 04:56 AM (This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 04:58 AM by Tyann.)
Post: #14
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(09-17-2017 09:38 AM)pier4r Wrote:  Disclaimer: I tried to search with google, but the word "prime" gets mangled with prime numbers that are often mentioned in this type of forums.

A thread similar to: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-7955 but for the prime in the prime section. Although here I will mostly ask questions.

First a huge thanks to jebem with his huge thread on prime documentation and resources, as well as thanks to all the contributors. I observed that even though several people exposed similar topics (for example introduction to programming) it is not true that "ah, it exist once, then it is not needed twice". Indeed the way to expose concepts varies always, therefore every explanation can be useful.

In particular I enjoyed so far the Han explanations, although the last update was in 2014.

Questions:
- Aside from built in commands (that are flexible but non that much like the 50g), does anyone know robust community libraries that provide list and/or string processing? I found in my quick searches only this: http://www.hpcalc.org/details/7785 (I cannot say if it is good or not given only one version) .
- Is there a sort of AUR (advanced user reference) ? I have only the prime user guide that although not bad, it is pretty dry about all the commands in the prime.


Thanks for the answers, surely more questions will come.

PS: I bought the prime App in May 2017 but never used it since then. Yesterday I tested with a quick add loop (a for) and on a nvidia shield k1 2014. It goes through 10 million additions in 7 seconds. Quite quick (newRPL on a computer did it in 2 seconds).
Since newRPL is a nice project but I still need some time to get used to it (especially because I need to open another computer to develop with it) I realized that the HP prime may be able to cover - for the moment - what userRPL cannot. At least with my style of programming.

Bonjour
Voici un lien vers une de mes modestes contributions, si cela peut vous ĂȘtre utile.


Hello
Here is a link to one of my modest contributions, if that can be useful.

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-5141.html

Sorry for my english
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09-25-2017, 05:55 AM (This post was last modified: 09-25-2017 05:56 AM by pier4r.)
Post: #15
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
Tyann, thanks for the link! Once again, finding those libraries quickly is not that possible.

Arno. Yes that for small results works, but what if I have many results lines (say, 50+ ?)

Anyway thanks!

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09-25-2017, 07:19 AM
Post: #16
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
So I think you have no other chance but copy the results, perhaps directly after construction in one list and when you are done you can follow my advice from above.
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10-08-2017, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2017 09:22 AM by pier4r.)
Post: #17
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
As I explained here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-9245.html I estimated the hp prime app very valuable (since I have several android and windows devices) and I bought it also on windows. Also I hope that the development will continue for a while (1-2 years)

So far the usage of windows 10 is not bad but newRPL (on win10) has an easier way to transfer from text files, maybe this could be included in the next app releases? That would be a great improvement (I am not sure whether Tim or other HP members will read this).

One thing that I have difficulties to understand, though, is when I select "memory, info".

On a win 10 pro, 1gb ram, 160 gb of disk I get:
memory 42 MB, storage 1.3 GB
(the memory is smaller than the real calculator somehow)

On a nvidia shield k1, android 7.0, 2gb ram, 64 gb sd storage I get:
memory: 101.32 MB, Storage 10Kb (!)

Can someone explain how it works?

To me it seems that the storage could expand until the real disk is full, while the memory, well. Why is is 101 MB on android and 42mb on windows?

Now 42Mb of memory are great but I thought that the limit on android or windows could expand on demand, so not to limit the usage of the application.

PS:
also a simple for loop looping through values needs:
7 seconds on the nvidia shield k1, cpu tegra k1 (it has 5 CPU arm cores, one can go up to 2.3 Ghz)
60 seconds on a atom n270 (2 logical cores, x86, 1.6 ghz)

though the n270 has already to care about win10 that is heavy on its own. The nvidia is pretty slick.

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10-08-2017, 09:44 AM
Post: #18
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
Well, disk storage is dependent on the file system and how blocks are allocated. If these blocks are 32K for example, each file has it's space allocated in 32K chunks, and since each system uses different block sizes, you are going to see different total sizes for the system usage. Though usually memory has finer granularity, there are also min block sizes for memory allocation too, so you'll see similar situations there (often related to page sizes related to MMU activity).

For the original poster....check out the wiki....you might find something there....http://www.wiki4hp.com/doku.php?id=prime:start

I've seen a bunch of list libraries posted (including in the replies above), but for strings...I searched the HP Prime software library and found this one....http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-5141.html?highlight=string
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10-08-2017, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2017 04:04 PM by Tim Wessman.)
Post: #19
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
(10-08-2017 09:18 AM)pier4r Wrote:  That would be a great improvement (I am not sure whether Tim or other HP members will read this).

You mean easier then interfacing directly with the connkit over the network? That is what is supported right now. In what way do you want it easier?

Quote:On a win 10 pro, 1gb ram, 160 gb of disk I get:
memory 42 MB, storage 1.3 GB
(the memory is smaller than the real calculator somehow)

On anything but the physical device where memory is basically a non-concern, "Memory" refers to physical memory consumed by the process/program during runtime, and storage refers to space left on the disk.

Quote:On a nvidia shield k1, android 7.0, 2gb ram, 64 gb sd storage I get:
memory: 101.32 MB, Storage 10Kb (!)

From memory, that 10K is just a hardcoded value I stuck in there. There was no good way to get storage space remaining when I was busy implementing that function.

Basically, there is no need at all to look at those except on the hardware as it doesn't really mean anything. There are no limits apart from anything the system might impose on apps in general.

TW

Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own.
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10-08-2017, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2017 07:48 PM by pier4r.)
Post: #20
RE: Hp prime questions (plus little explorations).
About memory, good to know (maybe a string explaining this to the ignorant user like me?)

(10-08-2017 04:02 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  You mean easier then interfacing directly with the connkit over the network? That is what is supported right now. In what way do you want it easier?

I meant for the app on win10 or android (not the real calculator).

If the app could import text and export text (it already works with the clipboard, so why not directly with a file?) development could be faster.

NewRPL 0.9 has this feature (import/export from/to text file) and it helps a lot.

Thanks for your time anyway! Considering that today is Sunday!

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