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Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
07-08-2017, 08:23 PM
Post: #1
Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
Wouldn't you know it, just as Tony introduced his HP-92 simulator, my Windows7 machine died. Since everything else in our home is from Apple, we replaced it with a MacBook Pro. I don't miss Windows, EXCEPT for Tony's great selection of HP calcs.

I hear there are virtual machine environments from VMware and others that are supposed to create a Windows environment on a Mac. Has anyone tried that and successfully run Tony's simulators on a Mac this way ?


Regards,
Bob
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07-08-2017, 10:47 PM
Post: #2
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
I use Parallels when I need a Windows VM on my mac. I've not run Teenix's emulators under it but I doubt there would be any problem.


Pauli
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07-09-2017, 04:13 PM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 04:14 PM by Thomas Okken.)
Post: #3
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
After having used Parallels and VMware on my Macs, I switched to VirtualBox, because I was getting annoyed with having to buy updates whenever there was a major MacOS release. (VirtualBox is free and so are the updates, minor and major.)

I've had no problems running Windows in it (XP, 7, 8.1, 10). I haven't tried running teenix's emulators, but for what it's worth, V41 and Emu42 run fine.
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07-09-2017, 04:23 PM
Post: #4
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
I use the Windows version of VirtualBox for all sorts of strange stuff, so I'd imagine the Mac version is pretty good. It doesn't have some of the more exotic UI integration features you find in Parallels or VMware, but it is free. And the guest integration utilities work all the way back to Windows NT 4, which is nice.
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07-09-2017, 05:22 PM
Post: #5
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-09-2017 04:23 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  I use the Windows version of VirtualBox for all sorts of strange stuff, so I'd imagine the Mac version is pretty good. It doesn't have some of the more exotic UI integration features you find in Parallels or VMware, but it is free. And the guest integration utilities work all the way back to Windows NT 4, which is nice.

I agree with Dave. I have been running VBox in Windows & Linux for several years to run, like Dave said, many strange stuff. I've run CP/M 86, various MS-Dos versions, WIN98. XP, WIN 7, all sorts of Linuxes, Xenix, AT&T System V Unix, Mark Williams Xenix, OS/2, and many others. Great way to play with other OS'es.

The biggest problem with some of the older OSes is that they don't recognize a shared drive from the host system. I have found that the simplest way is to have one Virtual machine that will use a share drive, in my case, I use my XP virtual machine. Then I just attached the Virtual Hard Drive from the other Virtual Machine to the XP and copy over what I need. Then reboot and I now have the files on the virtual machine that normally won't see a shared folder. This works fine for any old OS that will read a standard Fat partition.

Bill
Smithville, NJ
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07-10-2017, 12:24 AM
Post: #6
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-09-2017 05:22 PM)Bill (Smithville NJ) Wrote:  The biggest problem with some of the older OSes is that they don't recognize a shared drive from the host system. I have found that the simplest way is to have one Virtual machine that will use a share drive, in my case, I use my XP virtual machine. Then I just attached the Virtual Hard Drive from the other Virtual Machine to the XP and copy over what I need. Then reboot and I now have the files on the virtual machine that normally won't see a shared folder. This works fine for any old OS that will read a standard Fat partition.

An even easier way to do it is to specify VHD format when creating your virtual disks. Since around Windows 7, you can just double-click a VHD file to mount it, assuming it's a filesystem that Windows recognizes (e.g. any type of FAT). I wouldn't recommend doing this with NTFS volumes, though, since the SIDs and security descriptors will get weird. If you're running something like NT4 or earlier versions, which don't support VirtualBox shared folders, just mount a secondary FAT-formatted VHD to the VM and use that for copying. The VM has to be powered off before you mount its disk to Windows, of course.

Not sure if the Mac version of VirtualBox supports anything that macOS will mount natively. (.dmg, was it?)
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07-10-2017, 05:35 AM
Post: #7
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-10-2017 12:24 AM)Dave Britten Wrote:  Not sure if the Mac version of VirtualBox supports anything that macOS will mount natively. (.dmg, was it?)

MacOS can't mount any of the VirtualBox-supported virtual disk types.
You could create a shared folder in the Windows guest and mount that on the MacOS host, though. (I prefer using scp if vbox shared folders aren't an option, but of course that requires installing WinSCP or Cygwin or whatever in the Windows guest.)

OK, this afternoon I'm going to try to run Teenix's HP-97 under Windows 10 in VirtualBox on my 11" MBA. I'm on vacation so the timing is perfect for some pure retro fun. :-)
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07-10-2017, 09:46 AM
Post: #8
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
I tried running the HP-25, 19C, and 97. Basic operation was OK with all three, but the 19C crashed when I tried to run a program on it: the display went dark and it stopped responding to the keyboard. Toggling the ON/PRGM/RUN switch made the display come back on, but showing nonsense. No way for me to say if this is a bug in the emulator or a side effect from running in a VM.

Also, the print-head moves slower than the sound, so you hear it make the high-pitched "carriage return" sound while it's still printing the line.

MacBook Air 11" running MacOS 10.12.5
VirtualBox 5.0.22 r108108
Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, with all the latest updates
CCE33 with HP25 and HP19C modules; HP97; all downloaded today
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07-10-2017, 10:28 AM
Post: #9
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-10-2017 09:46 AM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  I tried running the HP-25, 19C, and 97. Basic operation was OK with all three, but the 19C crashed when I tried to run a program on it: the display went dark and it stopped responding to the keyboard. Toggling the ON/PRGM/RUN switch made the display come back on, but showing nonsense. No way for me to say if this is a bug in the emulator or a side effect from running in a VM.

Also, the print-head moves slower than the sound, so you hear it make the high-pitched "carriage return" sound while it's still printing the line.

MacBook Air 11" running MacOS 10.12.5
VirtualBox 5.0.22 r108108
Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, with all the latest updates
CCE33 with HP25 and HP19C modules; HP97; all downloaded today

Thanks for the feedback.

The HP19c works fine on my win7 machine.

The print head speed can be synchronised with the sound by right clicking the calculator and selecting [Options] [Print Head Speed]

cheers

Tony
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07-10-2017, 12:12 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2017 12:14 PM by Thomas Okken.)
Post: #10
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-10-2017 10:28 AM)teenix Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 09:46 AM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  I tried running the HP-25, 19C, and 97. Basic operation was OK with all three, but the 19C crashed when I tried to run a program on it: the display went dark and it stopped responding to the keyboard. Toggling the ON/PRGM/RUN switch made the display come back on, but showing nonsense. No way for me to say if this is a bug in the emulator or a side effect from running in a VM.

Also, the print-head moves slower than the sound, so you hear it make the high-pitched "carriage return" sound while it's still printing the line.

MacBook Air 11" running MacOS 10.12.5
VirtualBox 5.0.22 r108108
Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, with all the latest updates
CCE33 with HP25 and HP19C modules; HP97; all downloaded today

Thanks for the feedback.

The HP19c works fine on my win7 machine.

The print head speed can be synchronised with the sound by right clicking the calculator and selecting [Options] [Print Head Speed]

cheers

Tony

I tried the same test on a PC running Windows 10 Home 64-bit on the metal, with the same result. This is the program:

01 LBL 0
02 1
03 STO 0
04 LBL 1
05 2
06 STO+ 0
07 1
08 STO 1
09 LBL 2
10 2
11 STO+ 1
12 RCL 0
13 RCL 1
14 X^2
15 X>Y?
16 GTO 3
17 CLX
18 LASTX
19 /
20 FRC
21 X=0?
22 GTO 1
23 GTO 2
24 LBL 3
25 RCL 0
26 PSE
27 GTO 1

Switch to RUN mode; try running program by saying GSB 0. Display goes black.

N.B. Running the equivalent programs in the HP-25 and HP-97 emulators went fine. I love how even the flickering junk in the display looks authentic. :-)
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07-10-2017, 02:19 PM
Post: #11
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-10-2017 12:12 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  Switch to RUN mode; try running program by saying GSB 0. Display goes black.

N.B. Running the equivalent programs in the HP-25 and HP-97 emulators went fine. I love how even the flickering junk in the display looks authentic. :-)

Yes, you are correct.

I don't know why it has decided to fail, unless my fiddling with code for the other models has upset the apple cart somehow.

The problem is the P register which is decrementing by 2 in a microcode loop. It is initially set to an odd number, but gets tested for 0 to break out. This will never happen though as all P values will be odd, and this is very odd too :-)

The 97 has a different method for doing the same thing.

This will take some time to nail unfortunately.

The code is original, so hopefully the display should be reacting as the real thing.

cheers

Tony
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07-10-2017, 03:17 PM
Post: #12
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
I might have fixed the problem.

Not 100% sure, but it might have been a typo in the microcode file

I have uploaded the modified file to http://www.teenix.org

Near the page bottom there is a temporary link [HP19c Code Fix]

Right click -> Save Target As -> then save to your cce33 operating directory.

If it was the problem, I will put it in the HP19c download module.

cheers

Tony
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07-10-2017, 08:38 PM
Post: #13
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-10-2017 03:17 PM)teenix Wrote:  I might have fixed the problem.

Not 100% sure, but it might have been a typo in the microcode file

I have uploaded the modified file to http://www.teenix.org

Near the page bottom there is a temporary link [HP19c Code Fix]

Right click -> Save Target As -> then save to your cce33 operating directory.

If it was the problem, I will put it in the HP19c download module.

cheers

Tony

I guess that was it, because it's working fine here, too, now. I haven't re-tested on the PC yet, but it's OK in VirtualBox now.

Thanks! :-)

Thomas
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07-11-2017, 01:06 AM
Post: #14
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-10-2017 08:38 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  I guess that was it, because it's working fine here, too, now. I haven't re-tested on the PC yet, but it's OK in VirtualBox now.

Thanks! :-)

Thomas

And thank you :-)

I have uploaded a new HP19c module.

cheers

Tony
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07-11-2017, 02:44 AM
Post: #15
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
With all this talk about VirtualBox, have they fixed their severe stability issues?

When I tried out VirtualBox (admittedly 6 years ago), VirtualBox itself crashed at least once an hour (VirtualBox crashed, not the OS running inside it). Since this was the equivalent of yanking the power cord on a running live OS, I feared that the virtual hard drive images would get corrupted over time.

This is why I went with VMWare since VMWare Player is also free. I haven't tried out VirtualBox since then since they lost a lot of my trust.
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07-11-2017, 02:51 AM
Post: #16
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
I use VirtualBox for my day to day work. I've had no issues with stability.


Pauli
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07-11-2017, 02:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2017 03:03 AM by Thomas Okken.)
Post: #17
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-11-2017 02:44 AM)Chris Dreher Wrote:  With all this talk about VirtualBox, have they fixed their severe stability issues?

When I tried out VirtualBox (admittedly 6 years ago), VirtualBox itself crashed at least once an hour (VirtualBox crashed, not the OS running inside it). Since this was the equivalent of yanking the power cord on a running live OS, I feared that the virtual hard drive images would get corrupted over time.

This is why I went with VMWare since VMWare Player is also free. I haven't tried out VirtualBox since then since they lost a lot of my trust.

I wouldn't recommend something that crashed once an hour, or at least not without *mentioning* that it crashed once an hour. :-)

I don't remember exactly when I started using VirtualBox, but I'm pretty sure it was less than six years ago. More like three or four, I think, while it was still at version 4.3.something.

The only problem I remember having was trouble figuring out how to get shared folders to work with Linux guests. I've used it with Windows and MacOS hosts, and Windows and Linux guests, and haven't had any stability issues, ever.
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07-11-2017, 06:27 AM
Post: #18
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
(07-11-2017 02:51 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  I use VirtualBox for my day to day work. I've had no issues with stability.


Pauli

Ditto.
And I also use VMware Workstation, Player and vSphere. With no stability issues.

Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
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07-13-2017, 04:51 AM
Post: #19
RE: Running Simulators from teenix.org on virtual machine?
Thanks to everyone for all your great feedback !


Regards,
Bob
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