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DM 15L keypress problems
01-31-2016, 10:45 PM
Post: #1
DM 15L keypress problems
In another thread, Bernd Grubert wrote:

"When I use the DM-15L (new version with metal domes) I sometimes (~every 10th to 20th) loose a keypress. The lost keypresses usually happens when I type fast. They cannot be reproduced and are not specific to certain keys. When I type slowly everything seems to be ok."
(...)
"Has anyone else observed keyboard problems with the DM-15L, too?"

I believe this is worth a thread of its own.

I have the ***exact same problem*** with my DM-15L (S/N# 00205). The calculator was delivered with the original board, which was then replaced by SwissMicros with the metal dome board. Both boards have the *same* problem, i.e. keypresses are lost at random, as Herr Grubert reports.

I would love to recommend the DM15L to other RPN fanatics - but I can't because the calculator is unusable for everyday work under these circumstances. I have to check each and every keypress while doing a quick calculation.

I have carefully removed a portion of the sticky tape with the domes from the board, but I did not find any dust, debris, stain etc. underneath. I am afraid that this is NOT a *keyboard* hardware problem. I believe that the processor simply does not accept key-press events at certain points in time. However I was unable to find any reproducible periodicity.

I had even considered to purchase another one because of the keyboard problem, thinking my 15L might be a "lemon", but of course I won't do this, considering the reports of Mr. Grubert.

It's sad because otherwise the DM-15L calculator is a pipe dream come true.

Regards
Roman
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01-31-2016, 10:56 PM
Post: #2
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
It does sound like a software key scanning issue (maybe an agressive key bounce routine). Perhaps at the emulation layer.
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02-01-2016, 08:25 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2016 08:33 PM by BarryMead.)
Post: #3
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(01-31-2016 10:45 PM)rflesch Wrote:  "When I use the DM-15L (new version with metal domes) I sometimes (~every 10th to 20th) lose a keypress. The lost keypresses usually happens when I type fast. They cannot be reproduced and are not specific to certain keys. When I type slowly everything seems to be ok."
I see the same result (new metal domes SN-00066), and choose to press the keys a little slower to compensate. If enough people report this issue, I would hope that Swiss Micros would look into the problem and correct the software to eliminate this issue. They have already released several software versions since they started making the credit card sized DM-15, and I am hopeful that they will continue to improve this product line. I suspect that users of the tiny credit card sized version simply attributed the missed keystrokes to improper thumb or finger pressure, but with the excellent tactile feedback and professional keys of the DM-15L this issue becomes more clearly a software problem, so it is now more obvious that it should be reported.
Hope this helps, Sincerely, Barry Mead
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02-01-2016, 09:01 PM
Post: #4
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-01-2016 08:25 PM)BarryMead Wrote:  I see the same result (new metal domes SN-00066), and choose to press the keys a little slower to compensate. If enough people report this issue, I would hope that Swiss Micros would look into the problem .....

I also loose randomly keys when pressing them normally, DM-15L S/N#00402. Some keys (especially in the first row) have a severe mechanical double klick feeling, they have a first and a second point of mechanical resistance, which makes them displeasing to use. Unfortunately it cannot be my everyday calculator for this reason. My respect though for having made this HP clone.

Bernhard

That's one small step for a man - one giant leap for mankind.
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02-01-2016, 09:08 PM
Post: #5
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
Hello,
Thanks for the replies. I started thinking I was a bit too nitpicking on the subject, since nobody else seemed to be bothered by the keyboard issue.
I'm quite sure that this is a software issue, since both of my Voyagers (DM-15L and DM-16L) have it. My DM-41L has no problems as long as I'm using it as DM-41L. As soon as I'm reflashing is with the DM-15L firmware keyboard problem arise.

Regards
Bernd
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02-02-2016, 04:33 AM
Post: #6
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-01-2016 09:01 PM)PANAMATIK Wrote:  I also loose randomly keys when pressing them normally, DM-15L S/N#00402. Some keys (especially in the first row) have a severe mechanical double klick feeling, they have a first and a second point of mechanical resistance, which makes them displeasing to use. Unfortunately it cannot be my everyday calculator for this reason. My respect though for having made this HP clone.
Bernhard
Bernard: I used to have a problem with the #2 button on my DM-15L, (it required much more pressure to register than all of the other keys). When I reported this issue, Michael asked me to peal back the sticky tape to see if that key had a "Double Dome" under it. In my case pealing back the tape and re-attaching it fixed the issue (apparently some debris was caught under the dome making it necessary to apply more force to make good contact). When I pealed back the tape, and reattached it, the debris fell out and the key now works just like all of the others. When you mentioned the double click action on your top row keys, I immediately flashed back to this "Double Dome" diagnosis that Michael warned me about. Perhaps it would be worth a peek under the tape to see if you have "Double" metal domes under some of the top-row keys. Hope this helps, Barry
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02-03-2016, 01:11 AM
Post: #7
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-02-2016 04:33 AM)BarryMead Wrote:  I used to have a problem with the #2 button on my DM-15L, (it required much more pressure to register than all of the other keys). .....

Hi Barry,

My key problem was a different one, I had sticky keys in the upper row. Today I got advice from Michael too, but in my case the problem was the adhesive, which fixes the plastic keyboard to the metal case. There was too much glue used. The keys in the upper row had direct contact to the adhesive and got sticky therefore. Instead of using some powder or flour, as Michael suggested to neutralize the adhesive, I tried to remove the very soft glue with tweezers but without success, and then I messed it up with some solvent, which spread the glue around. My advice: keep with the advice you got. Michael was so kind to write he will send me a new keyboard.

If I imagine, that this was only a problem of too much adhesive and all keys will have the same feeling as the non sticky lower rows, then it is a really good keyboard. Remains only the possible software key problem.

Bernhard

That's one small step for a man - one giant leap for mankind.
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02-03-2016, 02:31 AM
Post: #8
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
The keyboard on mine sucks too. I put some foam under there which helps a bit, but I will not buy another swissmicros product unless this is addressed.
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02-03-2016, 05:39 AM
Post: #9
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
I have received an e-mail from Mr. Steinmann. He told me that David (his software developer?) is on holidays this week. They will investigate this problem as soon as he is back.
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02-03-2016, 05:47 AM
Post: #10
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-03-2016 05:39 AM)Bernd Grubert Wrote:  I have received an e-mail from Mr. Steinmann. He told me that David (his software developer?) is on holidays this week. They will investigate this problem as soon as he is back.
Excellent News! Now that there is strong evidence of a software issue, I thought they would jump right on the cure. The compelling evidence is that when flashed with the DM-41L firmware, the issue vanishes, but when flashed with the DM-15L firmware, the problem returns. To me this is very strong evidence that the missed keystrokes is a software issue, and can be fixed once they investigate. I really like my DM-15L, because it is so nice to be able to load/save programs through the USB port. I wish HP had thought to add a USB port to the HP-15C LE!
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02-04-2016, 09:20 PM
Post: #11
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-03-2016 05:47 AM)BarryMead Wrote:  I really like my DM-15L, because it is so nice to be able to load/save programs through the USB port. I wish HP had thought to add a USB port to the HP-15C LE!

I like it too and use it daily. Besides the ability to load and save progams I find the speed and the increased memory extremely useful.
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02-05-2016, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2016 09:23 PM by BarryMead.)
Post: #12
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-04-2016 09:20 PM)Bernd Grubert Wrote:  [I like it too and use it daily. Besides the ability to load and save progams I find the speed and the increased memory extremely useful.
The DM-15L is a beautiful machine and I am very grateful to Swiss Micros for expending enormous effort to create it. I never owned an ORIGINAL HP-15C only the HP-15C LE, so from that vantage point the DM-15L is actually slower than the HP that I compared it to, but it is still fast enough for anything but running cpu-intensive programs. All of the built in functions, and most user written programs execute almost instantly. So far I have not tried loading the optional versions of the firmware that add extra memory registers, but it is nice to know they are available should a situation arise that requires more registers.
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02-05-2016, 08:27 PM
Post: #13
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
Please see this thread for solution of the problem.
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02-08-2016, 01:50 PM
Post: #14
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
No sticky keys any more!

I received a new DM-15L keyboard today from SwissMicros, now all keys are working perfectly. As I could convince myself before assembly, the adhesive was outside of the region, where it could affect the upper row keys.

Many thanks to Michael Steinmann.

Bernhard

That's one small step for a man - one giant leap for mankind.
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02-11-2016, 04:35 PM
Post: #15
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
V19 has introduced another issue:

The calculator is much more usable now that the keys work so much better - which is exactly what I started doing. And just now I noticed something yellow sticking to my finger tip. It were the little arrows of the "x<>" legend above the "4" key. The "." of "x!" has also gone missing. I think I will end up with two "x" functions sooner or later :-|

Has anyone noticed something similar?
It is not a big issue in my opinion though.

Harald
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02-11-2016, 05:54 PM
Post: #16
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
Harald,

even though I have been using the DM15L extensively during the past couple of months (daily in use for nearly everything), I had no problems with disappearing labels. I for one would not consider this problem to be of minor importance.

Would you consider to move this to a new thread so that we can separate individual 15L issues, bugs etc.

Roman
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02-12-2016, 08:07 AM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2016 08:08 AM by Bernd Grubert.)
Post: #17
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-11-2016 04:35 PM)Harald Wrote:  Has anyone noticed something similar?

Yes. On my DM-41L the letter 'L' and 'K' above the 'ON'-key have vanished. The serial no. of the model is #00061. Not a big issue, so far. I hope that the other letters will stay in place.
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02-12-2016, 09:18 AM
Post: #18
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
(02-11-2016 05:54 PM)rflesch Wrote:  I for one would not consider this problem to be of minor importance.

Well, if more than just a few dots and arrows go missing, it will become an issue. But so far it doesn't look like that.
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02-12-2016, 11:06 AM
Post: #19
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
Yes, it's true, unfortunately. I must correct myself. I can scratch off the yellow labels easily with my fingernails. SwissMicros must change this in the future.
The labels on the keys appear to be more stable.
Roman
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02-12-2016, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2016 11:21 AM by rflesch.)
Post: #20
RE: DM 15L keypress problems
Another DM15L keypress issue:
If I type the same key very fast several times, only every other keypress is registered by the calculator ( firmware V19). So, for example, "666666" becomes "666". (On my HP12CP I can type as fast as I want to and every keypress is registered.)
I sent an email to SwissMicros about this; I believe the problem comes from what is called "KEYTIME" for the 50g. I have proposed that this parameter should be made accessible (and changeable) using the serial console.
Roman
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