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WP-32S in 2016?
01-05-2016, 03:31 AM
Post: #21
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-04-2016 10:42 PM)walter b Wrote:  Naturalmente, perche no? Why not?

We offer a WP 34S and a WP 31S based on a platform whichs days are counted - but it's probably sufficient to cover the demand. We don't know yet whether a DM34L is possible at all (due to memory and unknown will of SM). Furthermore, just repeating the 34S on another HW isn't really breathtaking and will probably (my guess) not attract too many customers since the 34S is already there. A little progress would be better. Are solid keys instead of stick-on labels and a real dot-matrix display sufficient to make a WP/DM 34SII a success story?

I agree that demand for another functionally equivalent DM-34S is not sufficient to warrant the investment in time to port to the new h/w platform (assuming such an appropriate platform could be forthcoming from SM).

However there are several enhancements planned for the 43S (dot matrix LCD, soft keys, larger program space and IIRC, improved program entry) which could be implemented at least to a limited extent on the DMxxL hardware, as Walter's mockup screen shots have suggested.

Such a stepping-stone approach could allow development of some of the 43S enhancements to begin, and provide a superior feature set on a superior platform.

I believe a DM36L with improved LCD, vastly improved keyboard, built-in USB for backup and program Save/Load and larger memory space are sufficient new features to generate significant interest, plus it also lets us begin to explore some of the 43S features.

Please understand, I want and prefer a WP-43S, but if that platform is still some time off in the future, work on such an interim machine could keep project interest high and perhaps even help to refine the specs for the 43S.

--Bob Prosperi
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01-06-2016, 12:05 PM
Post: #22
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-05-2016 12:32 AM)John Smitherman Wrote:  ... Swiss Micros is selling a DM11L.

Where?? I don't see it on their homepage.

d:-?
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01-06-2016, 12:31 PM
Post: #23
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-06-2016 12:05 PM)walter b Wrote:  
(01-05-2016 12:32 AM)John Smitherman Wrote:  ... Swiss Micros is selling a DM11L.

Where?? I don't see it on their homepage.

d:-?

It's on the Order page ... Wink
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01-06-2016, 12:51 PM
Post: #24
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-04-2016 10:42 PM)walter b Wrote:  We offer a WP 34S and a WP 31S based on a platform whichs days are counted - but it's probably sufficient to cover the demand. We don't know yet whether a DM34L is possible at all (due to memory and unknown will of SM). Furthermore, just repeating the 34S on another HW isn't really breathtaking and will probably (my guess) not attract too many customers since the 34S is already there. A little progress would be better. Are solid keys instead of stick-on labels and a real dot-matrix display sufficient to make a WP/DM 34SII a success story?

In parallel, a WP/DM 32S sounds like a DM15L+, i.e. the niche looks even smaller. Main advantages compared to DM15L may be readable programs and alpha handling. Is that sufficient to make a project worthwile?

And reasoning for a WP 31S successor will follow the line explained for the WP 34S above.

Quite some basic unknowns so far. What do you (pl.) think?

d:-?

Here is what I think:
    [+] The WP-34S is a wonderful calculator. I love it. But for a lot of people it's difficult to get one and to keep it up to date without the right cable. So a SwissMicro version with solid keys to replace the stick-on labels and with a built-in micro USB connector for software updates would be a good way to extend and expand the current WP-34S. I would for sure buy one.
    [+] Having an improved display with more Alpha characters would be good.
    [+] Ideally the IR LED for the printer should be built-in.
    [-] I don't want to trade the 34S two lines display for a few soft keys, unless there is a clever mechanism to allow both as on the 42S.
    [-] I'm not interested in the 31S and will not be neither in a 32S, I just want the full power of the 34S, nothing less.
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01-07-2016, 02:54 PM
Post: #25
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Since those Jedis seem to be rather scattered or in a universe far, far away right now, my team of underpaid but willing designers attacked the job and returned with this:

   

Like each and every piece of (fairly) good design, it's almost self-explanatory. And you've got a further advantage: you know some RPN calcs already. As usual, comments, remarks, proposals for improvement, etc. are most welcome.

d:-)

(Due to 'almost' above: the dot matrix LCD may toggle between both kinds of displays as shown here - as long as a menu is displayed, the respective four softkeys are shown instead of the second display line, else the other display layout applies.)
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01-07-2016, 03:22 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2016 10:03 PM by Luigi Vampa.)
Post: #26
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Caro Walter, please give my regards and thanks to your design team members ;0) very nice job.
As a personal preference, I would obviate the Greek alphabet on the keyboard, so that it would look less overloaded.
Toggling between both display modes would be really convenient IMHO. Phantastisch!

MfG BR +
Don Luigi

Saludos Saluti Cordialement Cumprimentos MfG BR + + + + +
Luigi Vampa +
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01-07-2016, 03:40 PM
Post: #27
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-07-2016 02:54 PM)walter b Wrote:  Like each and every piece of (fairly) good design, it's almost self-explanatory. And you've got a further advantage: you know some RPN calcs already. As usual, comments, remarks, proposals for improvement, etc. are most welcome.

d:-)

(Due to 'almost' above: the dot matrix LCD may toggle between both kinds of displays as shown here - as long as a menu is displayed, the respective four softkeys are shown instead of the second display line, else the other display layout applies.)

Looks like a great successor to the 34S ! Love the use of more menus and only two shift keys!

1. Favor - will a list of Favourite functions be presented when entering this menu ? How do you define that list from the keyboard?
2. What is BLK?
3. Unfortunate that F and 7 occupy the same key. Thinking about Hex usage here.

-- Sanjeev Visvanatha
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01-08-2016, 01:08 AM
Post: #28
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-07-2016 02:54 PM)walter b Wrote:  Since those Jedis seem to be rather scattered or in a universe far, far away right now, my team of underpaid but willing designers attacked the job and returned with this:



Like each and every piece of (fairly) good design, it's almost self-explanatory. And you've got a further advantage: you know some RPN calcs already. As usual, comments, remarks, proposals for improvement, etc. are most welcome.

d:-)

(Due to 'almost' above: the dot matrix LCD may toggle between both kinds of displays as shown here - as long as a menu is displayed, the respective four softkeys are shown instead of the second display line, else the other display layout applies.)

Nice start Walter, thanks for taking the time to create and submit a layout.

It will take some time of sitting with the proposed layout, DM-15L and WP-34S in front of me to understand it even half-well.

Some early questions and comments:

1. What functionality beyond the current WP-34S is included?

2. Do soft menus work like on the 42S? Is Alpha included? Seems not needed, since Alpha keyboard is present.

3. I agree with comment above that the Greek labels should be omitted to favor a cleaner/less cluttered layout. I suspect that most users use none or only a couple of these (depending on their application area - stats, physics, etc.) and so could remember those he/she uses.

Perhaps 2 sets of overlays could be considered?

4. Is the top left key a toggle for Alpha-ON / Alpha-Greek / Alpha-OFF or is it Alpha-ON / Alpha-OFF and Blue-[key] while Alpha is on enters the Greek letter for that key?

Looking forward to watch this evolve.

--Bob Prosperi
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01-08-2016, 06:27 AM
Post: #29
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Another question for the community is what extra functions would be desirable?

Bessel functions of complex order and argument, Jacobi's elliptic functions, more statistical distributions, more programming features?


- Pauli
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01-08-2016, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 04:52 PM by emece67.)
Post: #30
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-07-2016 02:54 PM)walter b Wrote:  Like each and every piece of (fairly) good design, it's almost self-explanatory. And you've got a further advantage: you know some RPN calcs already. As usual, comments, remarks, proposals for improvement, etc. are most welcome.

Thanks for the job, it is always good to have a starting point, even more if it is as good as this proposal. I suppose all we will have a feeling of its preferred layout, mine will have:
  • Trigs with direct access from the keyboard (for me this is a must)
  • x=? and x!=? tests removed from direct access and placed in a menu, but
  • SF & CF with direct access from the keyboard (this can be neglected if there is no flag affecting the mode of operation, think on the A & D flags).
  • DROP with direct access from the keyboard (I use it much more than RDN)
  • DEG, RAD, GRAD removed from direct access and placed in a menu
  • VIEW placed in a menu
  • The nice // operator in the keyboard (that's the XY/(X+Y) thing EE people use)
  • An easy way to deal with hexa numbers (I'm not sure if in your layout the {E, F} digits are in the {+/-, 7} keys or in the {->, CPX} ones. I think I prefer the later)
  • The +/- key labeled CHS
  • x^2 in the keyboard
  • CL[Sigma] can be in a menu
  • Can STATUS, INFO and MEM be combined into a single menu?
  • Same with CLOCK & STOPW?
  • Same with MODES & DISP?
  • Same with FLAGS & TESTS?
  • Same with LOOPS & P.FCN? (I rarely use the PGM functions, not because I do not program, but because I prefer to do it in a computer with a compiler)
  • What the DSP key is for?
  • How do you enter the alpha mode?
  • PI can be placed in a shifted key
  • If D.MS is in the keyboard, then D.d should
  • Greek letters not shown

Yes, a big list, but as I said, all we will have a preferred layout according to the way we use the machine.

(01-08-2016 06:27 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  Another question for the community is what extra functions would be desirable?

Bessel functions of complex order and argument, Jacobi's elliptic functions, more statistical distributions, more programming features?
- Pauli

In no particular order:
  • A complex ABS operator that returns a real number, not a complex one with zero imaginary part (put simply, a SQR(X^2+Y^2) operator)
  • Functions to deal with polynomials as arrays of coefficients. Both real & complex coeffs must be supported. Functions for +, -, *, / (quotient & remainder), ^, composition, derivative, GCD, evaluation, get multiplicity of a root and from roots get coeffs
  • Working Bessel functions of integer order for both real & complex arguments
  • Operators like DSE & ISG that only increment/decrement the counter & do not perform the test (yes, I know I can write DSE NOP...)
  • Built in complex solver
  • Ability to compute the determinant of a complex matrix (the P->Z, Z->P transforms cannot do that)
  • Eigenvalues/vectors
  • I know this is not possible with such display but... a UNITS menu ala 48/49/50 (sorry, just dreaming)
  • Built in TVM solver with AMORT
  • If both SSIZE4 & SSIZE8 are supported, a test SSIZ4? (or SSIZ8?). I know of SSIZE?, but I find it clumsy to use
  • An easy way to write user programs that behave like XROM ones (provide a mechanism similar to xIN/xOUT for user programs)
  • Provide a mechanism for XROM programs to access locals of the calling program (not copying them, but directly accessing them)
  • Allow xIN/xOUT programs to work not in DBL mode (in fact I've have patched the wp34s sources to work such way in my local builds)
  • Allow XROM programs (not inside xIN/xOUT) to work in SSIZE8 mode (also patched in my local builds)
  • Always work in DBL mode?

That's enough for now ;-)

Both are big lists, but think of it as a brainstorming, everybody can say anything, even nonsense.

César - Information must flow.
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01-08-2016, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 11:23 AM by emece67.)
Post: #31
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Sorry, I forgot: better user control of the way numbers are show in display. I mean, I use mainly the ENG mode, but I do not want the exponent to be shown when it is 0 and, also, I do not want numbers 10000 > x >= .01 to be show in ENG mode, but in a kind of FIX mode with a constant number of significant digits shown. For example, in ENG 5, I want:
  • 31.4519E3
  • 3141.59
  • 314.159
  • 31.4159
  • 3.14159
  • 0.314159 (or .314159)
  • 0.0314159 (or .0314159)
  • 3.14159e-3

I have my local wp34s sources patched this way, but this is my way & I suppose others will like other ways, thus such demand on greater control of display modes.

I think that the newRPL project once worried about this.

Also, if the display allows it, an ENG mode with letters (31.3k, or better 31k3, instead of 31.3e3) would be very nice. Android HIPER calc has this "ENG SI" mode, not the 31k3 variant, though.

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01-08-2016, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 02:08 PM by emece67.)
Post: #32
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
And a way for programs to catch errors. Say a ONERR n/DOERR pair of commands.

The first registers a label n to be called when an error happens. The 2nd throws such error if the called manager decides it.

An ERR? command will report the number of the error.

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01-08-2016, 04:44 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 04:49 PM by emece67.)
Post: #33
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
And (perhaps) finally:

I find the move from C to XROM code a true winner. Thus I find highly desirable for the user to have the ability to write his own XROM code without the need of a full development environment, C compiler included. Thus, a way to write my own XROM code (or modify the existing one) with the only help of a (Perl o Python or Java or what you want based) compiler and then download this code to the machine seems highly useful for me.

Such capability must be accompanied with that to easily modify the menus, thus allowing the user to place his own XROM code in the menu he wants.

Both these two, with the addition of a nestable xIN/xOUT mechanism, will turn the system into a much easier one to develop general use applications, while also turning the flash program library into an unneeded feature.

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01-08-2016, 06:20 PM
Post: #34
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-07-2016 03:40 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  1. Favor - will a list of Favourite functions be presented when entering this menu ? How do you define that list from the keyboard?
2. What is BLK?
3. Unfortunate that F and 7 occupy the same key. Thinking about Hex usage here.

Short answers:
1. Yes.
2. It represents a blank letter.
3. Correct - my fault. Will be changed.

d:-)
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01-08-2016, 06:38 PM
Post: #35
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-08-2016 01:08 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  1. What functionality beyond the current WP-34S is included?

2. Do soft menus work like on the 42S? Is Alpha included? Seems not needed, since Alpha keyboard is present.

3. I agree with comment above that the Greek labels should be omitted to favor a cleaner/less cluttered layout. I suspect that most users use none or only a couple of these (depending on their application area - stats, physics, etc.) and so could remember those he/she uses.

Perhaps 2 sets of overlays could be considered?

4. Is the top left key a toggle for Alpha-ON / Alpha-Greek / Alpha-OFF or is it Alpha-ON / Alpha-OFF and Blue-[key] while Alpha is on enters the Greek letter for that key?

Short answers:
1. Basicly, just the consequences of a full dot matrix display. I.e. softkeys plus display formatting.
2a. ?
2b. Alpha is called almost like in WP 34S.
3. Greek letters will not be visible on the keyboard. They were just shown for sake of clarity (which obviously failed).
4. [α] shall toggle αON / αOFF. With αON, [g] plus a letter key shall enter the respective Greek letter if applicable (like in WP 34S).

d:-)
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01-08-2016, 06:42 PM
Post: #36
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Caro Luigi, grazie ancora una volta. Greek letters will not be visible on the keyboard. They were just shown for sake of clarity (which obviously failed).

d:-)
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01-08-2016, 07:01 PM
Post: #37
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Buenas tardes César,

that's really a big list. Just a few quick answers/explanations:
  • DEG, RAD, GRAD are on the keyboard since they are also target labels of [>]. Cf. WP 34S.
  • About hex input: the location of E and F will change.
  • SF and CF were on my draft layout before. I removed them due to menu population reasons.
  • DSP is for DiSPlaying a certain number of digits while keeping the basic display format (FIX, SCI, ENG). Was used in vintage calcs already.
  • For alpha mode, please see my previous response. Same for Greek letters.
Quite some of your wishes apply more to the 43S IMHO.

d:-)
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01-08-2016, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 09:25 PM by Dieter.)
Post: #38
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-08-2016 06:27 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  Another question for the community is what extra functions would be desirable?

Honestly, I don't want more functions but better ones.

The current WP34s implementations of some functions (Gamma, Beta, some quantile functions) still have room for improvement – this has been discussed before, so the weak points should be known. Then some functions that are now placed in XROM deserve a speed-up. Think of the quantile functions that sometimes require 5...10 seconds. Compare this with the design goal of the world's very first scientific calculator, the HP35: it was supposed to return any result within a second.

Finally, there are some not too sophisticated functions that can make the programmer's life much easier as they preserve accuracy that would be lost in a straightforward implementation. Think of a sqrt(1+x) – 1 or a general (1+x)^n – 1 function, especially for small x. Or y^x – 1, or 1 – cos x, or Lambert's W + 1. Or a sin(x*pi) function that returns exact results for integer fractions of Pi. Or... you get the idea. There is more than ln(1+x) and e^x–1.

Addendum: I think the Boost math toolkit may provide some good insights regarding a useful math function set.

Dieter
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01-08-2016, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2016 09:37 PM by Dieter.)
Post: #39
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
Let me add just two remarks:

(01-08-2016 10:01 AM)emece67 Wrote:  Trigs with direct access from the keyboard (for me this is a must)

I would extend this to all major math functions, i.e. logs, exponentiation, roots, powers, 1/x, ... All this should be available directly from the keyboard, if possible even unshifted. Take a look at the 35s and the key row above ENTER. Remember: after all, it's a calculator, a tool for doing calculations.

(01-08-2016 10:01 AM)emece67 Wrote:  Operators like DSE & ISG that only increment/decrement the counter & do not perform the test (yes, I know I can write DSE NOP...)

This is already available on the 34s. It's called INC and DEC.
And no, DSE NOP is no substitute – think of non-integer arguments and the way the loop control number is defined. Simply try Pi followed by ISG X. ;-)

Dieter
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01-08-2016, 09:47 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2016 09:09 AM by Luigi Vampa.)
Post: #40
RE: WP-32S in 2016?
(01-08-2016 09:09 PM)Dieter Wrote:  
(01-08-2016 06:27 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  Another question for the community is what extra functions would be desirable?

Honestly, I don't want more functions but better ones.
[...] some functions that are now placed in XROM deserve a speed-up. Think of the quantile functions that sometimes require 5...10 seconds. Compare this with the design goal of the world's very first scientific calculator, the HP35: it was supposed to return any result within a second.
[...]
Dieter

Natürlich! I couldn't agree more on this. IMHO polishing the edges would add more value to this new legend (in the works;) than going for a canned encyclopedia.

MfG BR +
Don Luigi

Saludos Saluti Cordialement Cumprimentos MfG BR + + + + +
Luigi Vampa +
Free42 BlackviewA7 '<3' I + + +
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