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4-banger?
01-26-2014, 10:13 PM
Post: #21
RE: 4-banger?
(01-26-2014 10:11 PM)Terje Vallestad Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 09:41 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  I spent some time coming up with a layout for a simple non-programmable RPN calculator, based upon HP-30B hardware, and WP-34S code. I envision two new catalogs (CLEAR and PARTS), and also some thinning/adding to existing WP-34S catalogs. No new functions not already in WP-34S, and only one shift key!

Hi,

Nice start.
Just a quick question, if the calc is not programmable, do you need an EXIT button?

Cheers, Terje

Thank you! I believe it is needed to EXIT catalogs.

-- Sanjeev Visvanatha
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01-27-2014, 10:38 AM
Post: #22
RE: 4-banger?
OK, something like this looks like a 'minimum scientific calculator' based on the WP 34S to me.

   

More menus can be added but would overload the paradigm IMO.

d:-)
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01-27-2014, 06:46 PM
Post: #23
RE: 4-banger?
Wow -- I'm away for a couple days after starting this thread and look what happens!

I'm way behind in a response, but I stand corrected, 4-banger refers just to the four arithmetic functions, and yeah, even a basic scientific should do way more than that. A 4 banger is one of those junky throw-away free calculators you might get years back for opening a bank account. I suppose those might have a percent function of some kind, too.

Incidentally, one of my favorites of the older units is the HP-25, and what you're sketching out is right along the lines of what I'm thinking of.

I agree, having statistical functionality ranks above complex (and matrix) functions, IME, but this again is probably where I'd switch over to a laptop, anyway.

Pretty cute description: Nick-knacks... those things we can't bear to throw away that collect dust? Wink

Hope not!

Scott
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01-27-2014, 06:53 PM
Post: #24
RE: 4-banger?
Walter,

This last one of yours looks very nice, and I'm sure we'd all have our preferences and quibbles about what to keep and where to put this and that, but that to me is a great start to a straight-ahead basic scientific calculator. A name? RPN-banger? Hmmm.

Thanks!

Scott
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01-27-2014, 06:59 PM
Post: #25
RE: 4-banger?
For a 4-banger, it would be nice to not put the letter designators on the background -- to avoid using a background at all. Also, if the letter designators are really wanted, isn't there room on the key-front legends (similar to the way it is done on the Prime?)

-Jonathan
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01-27-2014, 09:30 PM
Post: #26
RE: 4-banger?
Scott,

(01-27-2014 06:53 PM)Scottie Wrote:  This last one of yours looks very nice, and I'm sure we'd all have our preferences and quibbles about what to keep and where to put this and that, but that to me is a great start to a straight-ahead basic scientific calculator. A name? RPN-banger? Hmmm.

Thanks for your kind words. As you say, layouting is a pretty personal art. Thus the full user configurabilty for the coming 43S. With respect to naming, I'd suggest calling its minor sibling 31S for obvious reasons Wink

d:-)
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01-27-2014, 09:56 PM
Post: #27
RE: 4-banger?
Jonathan,

(01-27-2014 06:59 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:  For a 4-banger, it would be nice to not put the letter designators on the background -- to avoid using a background at all. Also, if the letter designators are really wanted, isn't there room on the key-front legends (similar to the way it is done on the Prime?)

Please let me begin at the end: I didn't realize the Prime being such a success story keyboard-wise. Wink The letter designators are useful for fast function finding in catalogs as well as for the lettered registers X, Y, Z, T, A, B, C, D, I, J, K, and L. Not every letter is required yet (O, U, and W aren't) but that may change. With respect to their location: The sketch looks different but you cannot put more than 6 characters on a slanted key front and keep readability IMHO. And letters aren't important enough to put them on the key tops of a calculator. YMMV.

d:-)
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01-27-2014, 10:16 PM
Post: #28
RE: 4-banger?
Changes like those Walter proposed above would be relatively straightforward to make.

The files that will need modification are compile_cats.c to change the catalogues, keys.c to remap the key board and possibly display.c to fix the LCD to match. A lot more could be done -- remove functionality that isn't required e.g. but there doesn't seem to be any point -- not being a programmable, flash and RAM space become pretty much irrelevant. In other words, lots of risk for minimal reward.

Programmability will have to stay without a lot more work since some of the specified functions are in reality keystroke programs in xrom. This wouldn't matter, there is no way to start a program running or enter a program so this would be effectively hidden from the user.


- Pauli
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01-27-2014, 11:22 PM (This post was last modified: 01-27-2014 11:29 PM by Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.).)
Post: #29
RE: 4-banger?
A reminder to the would-be repurposers in this thread; the late model 12c has an arm chip and plug so it is theoretically as rewriteable as the 30b. It is missing the (admittedly funkey) second line and huge memory of the 30b but it has a couple more keys and it's pretty too.

The 12c is also not about to be discontinued. There are doubts about the long term availability of the 30b and if it does go away then IMHO, it's a waste of great functionality to turn them into anything less than a WP34s.
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01-28-2014, 05:32 AM
Post: #30
RE: 4-banger?
The 12c has a display totally unsuited for the 34S firmware. As far as I know, the CPU is the same and the RAM will likewise be the same.


- Pauli
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01-28-2014, 08:14 AM
Post: #31
RE: 4-banger?
(01-27-2014 11:22 PM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  The 12c is also not about to be discontinued. There are doubts about the long term availability of the 30b and if it does go away then IMHO, it's a waste of great functionality to turn them into anything less than a WP34s.

As Pauli stated (missing the "Quote" button), the 12C LCD is even worse than the one of the 30b for our purposes. That's a k.o. for the 12C, at least IMHO.

With respect to your last sentence above:
  1. Despite asking directly in a separate thread, NO hard facts came in so far about a stop of the 30b AFAIK. There are rumours, nothing more.
  2. Any repurposing would always be revertable - so any 31S may be reflashed and turned into a 34S whenever you like, and vice versa. The only price to pay is the necessary relabeling each time you switch.


d:-)
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01-28-2014, 08:57 AM
Post: #32
RE: 4-banger?
Walter and Paul;
You guys aren't "would-be repurposers". Not even close.
I was throwing the 12c idea out to Jeff, Sanjeev, Bill, and Gerson who had all commented on what a basic repurposed calc should have. That could all fit in a 12c whether they used parts of the WP34s firmware or wrote their own, and the 12 would take to eric's overlays like a duck to water. It's prettier than the SJ-10s idea too, with the big enter key.
That said; I'll keep my 34.
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01-28-2014, 10:10 AM
Post: #33
RE: 4-banger?
Walter and I aren't would be repurposers????? That is crazy talk :-) Walter and I spent several years working on the 34S project before anyone else even heard of it....

That said, could a 34S like firmware be ported to the 12C. Definitely. Would it take a lot of effort? Absolutely.


- Pauli
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01-28-2014, 11:52 AM
Post: #34
RE: 4-banger?
(01-28-2014 08:57 AM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  Walter and Paul;
You guys aren't "would-be repurposers". Not even close.
I was throwing the 12c idea out to Jeff, Sanjeev, Bill, and Gerson who had all commented on what a basic repurposed calc should have. That could all fit in a 12c whether they used parts of the WP34s firmware or wrote their own, and the 12 would take to eric's overlays like a duck to water. It's prettier than the SJ-10s idea too, with the big enter key.
That said; I'll keep my 34.
(01-28-2014 10:10 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  Walter and I aren't would be repurposers????? That is crazy talk :-) Walter and I spent several years working on the 34S project before anyone else even heard of it....

That said, could a 34S like firmware be ported to the 12C. Definitely. Would it take a lot of effort? Absolutely.

- Pauli

Heh, heh, there are misunderstandings even between people sharing (about) the same mother tongue Wink What do you expect of people using English as a foreign language then? Den, I think I understood the meaning of your term "would-be" here. Anyway, do not expect any support for porting WP 34S firmware to Voyagers from us (unless there would be Wink a new display which may change everything).

BTW, would you please use "Quote" instead of "New Reply" to respond to a certain post? It would make following threads easier. TIA

d:-)
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01-28-2014, 12:53 PM
Post: #35
RE: 4-banger?
I have successfully reconfigured about 90% of the keyboard in support of the concept I put forward earlier in this thread. It is working as expected in the Windows Emulator. I did reconfigure a little bit relative to what I sketched out.

Remaining work is completion of a few keys and shift combinations, such as reconfiguring the previous [f] [g] and [h] keys, and creating the new catalogs I want.

I will start a new thread in this sub forum for specific questions I may have.

-- Sanjeev Visvanatha
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01-28-2014, 03:12 PM
Post: #36
RE: 4-banger?
(01-27-2014 11:22 PM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  There are doubts about the long term availability of the 30b and if it does go away then IMHO, it's a waste of great functionality to turn them into anything less than a WP34s.

Just one important addition to my previous post:

The only reason for cutting down the (user visible) function set of the WP 34S would be creating a more newbie-friendly UI (i.e. less keyboard clutter), this way reducing the entry step for new folks who don't know RPN yet but may give it a try. These are the folks we want to attract: fresh, new users of RPN beyond the finance world!

On the other hand, the UI of the WP 34S as is was (and is) designed for scientific and engineering professionals - at least for those prefering the HP-32SII over the HP-32S; that UI may be frightening for newbies, however.

d:-)
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01-28-2014, 03:21 PM
Post: #37
RE: 4-banger?
(01-28-2014 12:53 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  I have successfully reconfigured about 90% of the keyboard in support of the concept I put forward earlier in this thread. It is working as expected in the Windows Emulator. I did reconfigure a little bit relative to what I sketched out.

We're interested. Smile

(01-28-2014 12:53 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  Remaining work is completion of a few keys and shift combinations, such as reconfiguring the previous [f] [g] and [h] keys, and creating the new catalogs I want.

Have a look at the hardware keyboard driver in main.c. It has provisions for shift-hold combinations and autorepeat on some keys. Some of this is mimicked in the Windows emulator, too.

Marcus von Cube
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01-28-2014, 04:46 PM
Post: #38
RE: 4-banger?
Walter:
re: "newbie-friendly UI" That's a good point and Sanjeev looks like he's there.
re: "would be" I should have used "aspiring" instead of an Americanism. You may now add "Yank to Ausie translator" to your resume.
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01-28-2014, 05:08 PM
Post: #39
RE: 4-banger?
(01-28-2014 04:46 PM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  Walter:
re: "newbie-friendly UI" That's a good point and Sanjeev looks like he's there.
re: "would be" I should have used "aspiring" instead of an Americanism. You may now add "Yank to Ausie translator" to your resume.

Den,

Thank you. If I will, I'll add "Yank to Aussie translator", however. Wink On the other hand, I can only be content if I'd succeed in teaching you to use "Quote" for answering (switch to "Threaded mode" and see that mess).

d:-)
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01-28-2014, 05:28 PM
Post: #40
RE: 4-banger?
(01-28-2014 05:08 PM)walter b Wrote:  On the other hand, I can only be content if I'd succeed in teaching you to use "Quote" for answering (switch to "Threaded mode" and see that mess).
Walter, this looks to me like an uphill battle similar to MS trying to sell Windows Phone… Wink
If you ever succeed you'll deserve a 15C LE without the PSE bug !
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