Swiss Micros and WP34s...
11-18-2015, 01:26 AM
Post: #21
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(11-17-2015 03:13 PM)BarryMead Wrote:  Also the free HP-15C simulator by Torsten Manz has a beautiful interface with the
DM-15C/DM-15L which allows you to browse a huge library of fully documented well written
HP-15C programs and allows for seamless transfer between the simulator and the DM-15L calculator.
You can get your copy from this web site:

http://www.hp-15c.homepage.t-online.de/content_web.htm

I've known and used Torsten's 15C Simulator for years, but had not checked in quite some time and did not know he has added support for the Swiss Micros 15C machines. Quick and easy to set-up, works like a charm. And though the new DM-15L is a pleasure to type on, you just can't beat the ability to download long programs as well as back-up the ones I do enter.

Thanks to Torsten for a great program and for adding DM-15 support!

And my thanks to Barry as well for pointing this out - letting me appreciate my new DM-15L even more.

--Bob Prosperi
12-16-2015, 04:32 PM
Post: #22
 Erico Serravite Junior Member Posts: 8 Joined: Dec 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
I am very interested in this new DM 15L but I will wait a little more so that these initial bugs and problems be solved before buying one. Maybe 6 months...
12-16-2015, 04:56 PM
Post: #23
 Marcio Senior Member Posts: 438 Joined: Feb 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-16-2015 04:32 PM)Erico Serravite Wrote:  I am very interested in this new DM 15L but I will wait a little more so that these initial bugs...

What bugs?
12-16-2015, 06:49 PM
Post: #24
 Erico Serravite Junior Member Posts: 8 Joined: Dec 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Sorry, I mean issues not bugs.
12-17-2015, 12:41 AM
Post: #25
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-16-2015 06:49 PM)Erico Serravite Wrote:  Sorry, I mean issues not bugs.

The very first few machines were shipped with a keyboard design that SwissMicros discovered may eventually have problems, so they very rapidly stopped selling units until a new design could be verified. They promptly sent replacement boards at no cost to all the early purchasers that received those units and those machines were upgraded within minutes.

The new keyboard acts and feels very nice indeed, I use it daily.

Otherwise there have been no other issues, at least none reported here.

I have only respect and admiration for SwissMicros for communicating clearly and acting swiftly and responsibly once they discovered the issue.

Other than choosing to wait and see if other issues might appear in 6-12 months, which seems unlikely, I would say jump in and get one now, and begin enjoying this great machine.

--Bob Prosperi
Post: #26
 BarryMead Senior Member Posts: 361 Joined: Feb 2014
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-16-2015 06:49 PM)Erico Serravite Wrote:  Sorry, I mean issues not bugs.

They use an arm processor emulating the "Nut" processor in the HP-15C. Then using this emulation environment, they use the REAL HP-15C firmware so the calculator behaves EXACTLY like the real thing (except it runs faster) since the arm processor is clocked at 48Mhz. So it will not have any "Software" issues. The only issues possible are hardware implementation issues. Since they started with the credit card sized versions and sold them for many years, I would expect very few hardware issues either as they were worked out on the smaller models. I bought a DM-15L and love it. The most impressive feature is how quickly I can load/save programs
using the USB interface. When you can instantly load well written HP-15C programs from a huge library without the chore of manual keyboard entry, it makes a programmable calculator much more useful! I rarely change
the program(s) in my HP-15C Limited Edition, but I have already loaded dozens of programs into my DM-15L since it arrived two weeks ago.
12-17-2015, 04:54 PM
Post: #27
 Erico Serravite Junior Member Posts: 8 Joined: Dec 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Thank you all for kind and promising replies. I have a small calculator collection and I have not bought any from Swiss Micros because I have had no information before. I realy love HP 15c, I have 3 oldies and 2 LE. That was the first HP my father gave me when I started studying electronics when I was a teenager and I was proud of being able to teach him how to use RPN logic and he never used a algebric calculator anymore... Some years later I gave him back when I bought my HP 28s with my own money. But some time later his HP 15c was stolen...

Thank you all again! Merry Christmas!

Very Kind Regards,

Erico Serravite.
12-17-2015, 06:02 PM
Post: #28
 Erico Serravite Junior Member Posts: 8 Joined: Dec 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
It would be nice if the Swiss Micros joined WP 34s developers to build new WP 34s and WP 43s too. Just dreaming... NIce dream for sure.
12-19-2015, 05:34 PM
Post: #29
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,968 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Looking a bit closer to my DM16L, I think transfering something near to the WP 34S to SwissMicros' HW platform might be possible.

As always, the LCD is the crucial element. According to SwissMicros it features a dot matrix of 132 pixels horizontally times 16 pixels vertically. If we'd keep the numeric output at the bottom like in the WP 34S, and use a 5x9 pixel matrix for a digit in the mantissa and 4x7 for a digit in the exponent, then a 12-digit signed mantissa plus a 3-digit signed exponent are easily displayable with nice group spacing. The annunciators necessary take up to 45x5 pixels top right. That leaves 86x6 pixels for alphanumeric output top left - twice the space available on the HP-30b.

The Voyager keyboard offers two keys more than the HP-30b, so there will be no major problem with the WP 34S keys.

What do you think?

d:-)
12-19-2015, 06:23 PM
Post: #30
 Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) (not so much Super as average) Moderator Posts: 462 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-19-2015 05:34 PM)walter b Wrote:  Looking a bit closer to my DM16L, I think transfering something near to the WP 34S to SwissMicros' HW platform might be possible.

As always, the LCD is the crucial element. According to SwissMicros it features a dot matrix of 132 pixels horizontally times 16 pixels vertically. If we'd keep the numeric output at the bottom like in the WP 34S, and use a 5x9 pixel matrix for a digit in the mantissa and 4x7 for a digit in the exponent, then a 12-digit signed mantissa plus a 3-digit signed exponent are easily displayable with nice group spacing. The annunciators necessary take up to 45x5 pixels top right. That leaves 86x6 pixels for alphanumeric output top left - twice the space available on the HP-30b.

The Voyager keyboard offers two keys more than the HP-30b, so there will be no major problem with the WP 34S keys.

What do you think?

d:-)

That's the last thing I need. So of course I'll get one immediately.
I'd have even settled for one based on the newest HP-12c platform though.
If it's RPN; I'm easy.
12-19-2015, 06:41 PM
Post: #31
 quantalume Member Posts: 106 Joined: Dec 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-19-2015 05:34 PM)walter b Wrote:  What do you think?

d:-)

Given the fact that Swiss Micros' hardware is superior to anything HP seems able to produce these days, I like this idea a lot. It creates a larger market for Swiss Micros and gets your firmware on more machines. Seems like a win-win situation all around.
12-19-2015, 07:12 PM (This post was last modified: 12-19-2015 08:27 PM by Marcus von Cube.)
Post: #32
 Marcus von Cube Senior Member Posts: 745 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-19-2015 05:34 PM)walter b Wrote:  As always, the LCD is the crucial element. According to SwissMicros it features a dot matrix of 132 pixels horizontally times 16 pixels vertically.

I did count differently, 96x16 (see below for correction) for the DM-41L, but we can't use the existing PCB for the complete 34S firmware anyway. If lacks flash space. The SOC has only 64 KB of flash, albeit more RAM then the Atmel chip the 30b is equipped with.

Edit: 132x16 seems correct. I used a high contrast setting and a magnifying glass to count the pixels again.

Marcus von Cube
Wehrheim, Germany
http://www.mvcsys.de
http://wp34s.sf.net
http://mvcsys.de/doc/basic-compare.html
12-19-2015, 08:39 PM
Post: #33
 rprosperi Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-19-2015 06:41 PM)quantalume Wrote:
(12-19-2015 05:34 PM)walter b Wrote:  What do you think?

d:-)

Given the fact that Swiss Micros' hardware is superior to anything HP seems able to produce these days, I like this idea a lot. It creates a larger market for Swiss Micros and gets your firmware on more machines. Seems like a win-win situation all around.

Though I do like the SwissMicros h/w, HP is still producing the HP-12C, and an SDK will be available 'soon' for the newest version of h/w, with even faster CPU. No idea if that processor has enough RAM, Flash, etc. but the limited LCD prevents easy adoption of the WP-34S f/w.

I wish the HP-17BII+ SIlver, also still being produced, could be re-purposed; it's awesome h/w, perfect for the WP-34S....

--Bob Prosperi
12-19-2015, 09:01 PM
Post: #34
 quantalume Member Posts: 106 Joined: Dec 2015
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Re hardware, I'm thinking more in terms of a dedication to quality. I'm sure a collaborative effort with SM could produce something of the necessary technical specifications. It seems to me that everyone's interests could be better served if the calculator manufacturers focused on producing quality hardware and left it to the community to perfect the software. Are you listening, HP?
12-19-2015, 11:04 PM
Post: #35
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,968 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Yes, Pauli and Marcus are right:
(09-21-2015 07:56 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The CPU used in the SwissMicros devices isn't capable enough for the 34S firmware. They top out at half the flash of the 30b CPU, although they do have slightly more RAM at the top end.
(12-19-2015 07:12 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  ... we can't use the existing PCB for the complete 34S firmware anyway. If lacks flash space. The SOC has only 64 KB of flash, albeit more RAM then the Atmel chip the 30b is equipped with.

And Bob is right as well:
(12-19-2015 08:39 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  ... HP is still producing the HP-12C, and an SDK will be available 'soon' for the newest version of h/w, with even faster CPU. No idea if that processor has enough RAM, Flash, etc. but the limited LCD prevents easy adoption of the WP-34S f/w.

I wish the HP-17BII+ SIlver, also still being produced, could be re-purposed; it's awesome h/w, perfect for the WP-34S....

So what do we have?
Code:
 Platform    Display  Case  Repurposable  Production HP-30b       o         +        yes           terminated HP-17BII+    ++        o        no            running (for years) HP-12C       --        o        yes           running (for years) DMxxL        +         +        ?             running since 2015 DIY5         +++       --       yes           not yet (for years)

Cases got a '+' for easy (dis-)assembly, a 'o' if heat stakes come in way. I have no idea about the amount of work necessary to enable the DMxxL to take the WP 34S firmware. I'd guess, however, negotiating with SM may be slightly easier than with HP. YMMV, of course.

d:-)
12-20-2015, 04:17 AM
Post: #36
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,968 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
The table represents the status as far as I know it today. It may be wrong in parts and/or I may have overseen important facts. Anyway it's an attempt to visualize the state of the art in a compact way. No offense intended etc. (Maybe I should add a standard disclaimer to my posts?) What do you think is the best way to go from here?

d:-?
12-20-2015, 05:13 AM
Post: #37
 Paul Dale Senior Member Posts: 1,235 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(12-19-2015 11:04 PM)walter b Wrote:  So what do we have?

To do a DM 34S, we need more memory on board. This will likely be a new SoC processor with 128kb or more of flash -- given how tight we are on the 34S more seems sensible.

I believe there was provision for serial FRAM or flash on the DM boards which might allow the 34S firmware to fit onto the existing CPU by moving lots of the code out of internal flash. I still suspect we'd be in trouble -- the UI on the 34S accounts for the bulk of the code space and this would be difficult to relocate.

Pauli
Post: #38
 BarryMead Senior Member Posts: 361 Joined: Feb 2014
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
(11-17-2015 09:19 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  Matthias and Marcio,

I was referring to the new SwissMicros DM 15L. The Enter key on all of these calculators, HP-15c, HP-15c LE and DM 15L will operate when depressed at the top or middle, but only the DM 15L will not operate when depressed at the bottom, because the key will not move. I believe that all these calculators have two switches assigned to the Enter key.

Edit, I just got the Enter key to work on the DM 15L when depressed at the bottom. It seems that I just needed to give it a really hard initial push to break it free, and it's now working normally. It does require significantly more effort to press at the bottom than at the top, which is similar to the other ones. So, I guess you can now disregard all that I said previously.
I looked inside of my DM-15L and the Enter key is designed to depress only at the top. All of the keys on the DM-15L have a thin-plastic flex hinge at the bottom and a nub near the top that depresses a snap dome underneath. The Enter key is no different. Even though there are two snap domes under the Enter key, only the top one is used. The hinge at the bottom of the Enter key isn't supposed to depress. It only moves at the top. If you follow the advice above, you will BREAK the hinges off of your Enter key and it may not work as consistently or reliably thereafter (The Enter key might possibly even fall out of your calculator once the hinges are broken off). After one understands how the key is constructed, it's relatively easy to remember to press the Enter key at the top.

Hope this helps, Barry
12-21-2015, 03:32 AM
Post: #39
 Michael de Estrada Member Posts: 247 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Barry,

Thanks for the input. It appears that I didn't actually break the Enter key hinge, but simply compressed the case enough to activate the top snap dome when pressing the key at the bottom. I've been pressing the Enter key at the top anyway, since it is much easier, and will definitely heed your advice not to press it at the bottom. Hopefully nobody has followed my bad advice and damaged their calculator.
12-21-2015, 01:37 PM
Post: #40
 walter b On Vacation Posts: 1,968 Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Swiss Micros and WP34s...
Let me expand the table a bit:
Code:
 Platform    Display  Case  Repurposable  Softkeys     Production HP-30b       o         +        yes      impossible   terminated HP-17BII+    ++        o        no       possible     running (for years) HP-12C       --        o        yes      impossible   running (for years) DMxxL        +         +        ?        impossible   running since 2015 DIY5         +++       --       yes      possible     not yet (for years)

d:-)
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