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41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
07-14-2016, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 07-14-2016 05:46 PM by Accutron.)
Post: #61
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 03:44 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I've never seen anyone assert any copyright claim for the HP docs, have you? The price one pays is clearly not for any kind of copyright/royalty payment, nor is it described as such.

I've never seen a complaint when someone publishes a link to doc which is included on the DVD. Also, I've never heard anyone complain about someone sharing a file from the DVD, rather I believe folks encourage newcomers to get it in order to benefit from having all the other content.

Places like MoHPC, Artek etc., all claim a copyright on the 'scan', i.e. the work required to convert the document to a digital format, which is the justification for charging money. MoHPC charges a rather modest sum and turns the profits inward to maintaining a non-commercial website, which is definitely the more noble approach (albeit not as noble as simply hosting them for free or uploading them to archive.org.) Artek is far worse, demanding vast profit for individual documents and basing their entire business model around it.

From the last page of every document on the MoHPC DVD:

"Scan Copyright ©
The Museum of HP Calculators
http://www.hpmuseum.org
Original content used with permission.
Thank you for supporting the Museum of HP
Calculators by purchasing this Scan!
Please to not make copies of this scan or
make it available on file sharing services."


The copyright claim itself and the request to not freely redistribute the files are assertions of presumed rights.
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07-14-2016, 07:55 PM
Post: #62
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 05:11 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  ...then are those members under a contractual obligation NOT to share them either... also to

I wouldn't participate in such an effort either. I clearly stated that I would expect those bit patterns to be considered free to copy (absent any other copyright claim) and I wouldn't go along with a deal that didn't explicitly include a provision stating that.

(07-14-2016 05:11 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  In case someone wonders, an active usage of the information is what happens when people share ideas and learns from methods and approaches from other OPEN sources.

That's a moral point that I agree with. But I'm focussed on the goal of liberating the information. Do you know the moral history of every module in your collection? Did a serial rapist contribute code? Did a murderer help publish it? (I'm not by any stretch accusing Matthias of any of those things. Just making a point.) Are the ideas that would be freed by paying a greedy toll collector any less free? Would you refuse to be enlightened by bits that were obtained that way? On that basis you'd best stay away from most of the world's history and literature.

That's hyperbole, but I truly believe that the minor evil (and expense) of the means is far outweighed by the ends in this case.


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Howard
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07-14-2016, 08:25 PM
Post: #63
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 07:55 PM)hbo Wrote:  
(07-14-2016 05:11 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  ...then are those members under a contractual obligation NOT to share them either... also to

I wouldn't participate in such an effort either. I clearly stated that I would expect those bit patterns to be considered free to copy (absent any other copyright claim) and I wouldn't go along with a deal that didn't explicitly include a provision stating that.

Yes you did, sorry that my response didn't make that part clear - I was talking in general.


(07-14-2016 07:55 PM)hbo Wrote:  
(07-14-2016 05:11 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  In case someone wonders, an active usage of the information is what happens when people share ideas and learns from methods and approaches from other OPEN sources.

That's a moral point that I agree with. But I'm focussed on the goal of liberating the information. Do you know the moral history of every module in your collection? Did a serial rapist contribute code? Did a murderer help publish it? (I'm not by any stretch accusing Matthias of any of those things. Just making a point.) Are the ideas that would be freed by paying a greedy toll collector any less free? Would you refuse to be enlightened by bits that were obtained that way? On that basis you'd best stay away from most of the world's history and literature.

That's hyperbole, but I truly believe that the minor evil (and expense) of the means is far outweighed by the ends in this case.

Well, sure enough those scenarios are unnerving but usually they're never taking into consideration to that level of ramification. Decisions and choices are tough enough already!

Cheers,
'AM
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07-14-2016, 08:31 PM
Post: #64
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 08:25 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Well, sure enough those scenarios are unnerving but usually they're never taking into consideration to that level of ramification. Decisions and choices are tough enough already!

What about the main point? Does free information get tainted if it takes money to free it from slavery? Would you refuse to look at anything Matthias made available to the world if he got paid to do it?


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Howard
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07-14-2016, 08:49 PM
Post: #65
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 05:40 PM)Accutron Wrote:  The copyright claim itself and the request to not freely redistribute the files are assertions of presumed rights.

This non-lawyer agrees that the claim of copyright is probably unenforceable. I'm guessing that nobody is going to sue to try. I'm happy to buy Dave's DVD's (and USB key.) I've done so multiple times in order to help support his efforts in collecting all those scans and for this site. If the copyright claim didn't dissuade from copying the contents of that DVD, a concern for undermining the site would.

There's law, and there's the right thing to do. Sometimes they don't line up.


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Howard
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07-14-2016, 09:12 PM
Post: #66
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 07:55 PM)hbo Wrote:  
(07-14-2016 05:11 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  ...then are those members under a contractual obligation NOT to share them either... also to

I wouldn't participate in such an effort either. I clearly stated that I would expect those bit patterns to be considered free to copy (absent any other copyright claim) and I wouldn't go along with a deal that didn't explicitly include a provision stating that.

Maybe my offer way not clear enough: For a up-to-define refund the images would be free to anyone, not only the "buyer".
Even some of you do not want to understand my position I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE PROFIT, I only want to get back a small amount for my investment. Thats why I call it a refund and not a sale.
The thing with the copyright is another discussion. I think, Ángel is mainly interested in playing with the images for future projects. Again and again: I accept your point of view and would like to share, BUT you do not accept my point of view as I read (sorry, this is not against Ángel personaly but for all members blames me in previous postings). I do not believe that further mutual accusations will help us finding a compromise.
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07-14-2016, 10:22 PM
Post: #67
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 09:12 PM)HP-Collection Wrote:  Maybe my offer way not clear enough: For a up-to-define refund the images would be free to anyone, not only the "buyer".
Even some of you do not want to understand my position I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE PROFIT, I only want to get back a small amount for my investment. Thats why I call it a refund and not a sale.

I think we're getting closer. Matthias, I believe what you're asking for is "compensation", not a refund, which goes to the buyer, not the seller.

In any case, you still have not offered up a sale price. So until you do, or change your view, I believe negotiations have come to a halt.

Dave
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07-14-2016, 10:32 PM
Post: #68
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 10:22 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  In any case, you still have not offered up a sale price. So until you do, or change your view, I believe negotiations have come to a halt.

If questions of price are to be discussed, I suggest we move the discussion to the classified forum, or else to private email. I'd prefer the former for transparency's sake, but whatever works.


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Howard
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07-14-2016, 11:21 PM
Post: #69
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
I think the solution is for Matthias to have to cough up a ROM image every time he poses a question to the forum, like this one. Smile
After all, it takes time to type a response, and time is money.
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07-14-2016, 11:25 PM
Post: #70
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
Regarding copyrights and the scans on the Museum DVD, it is worth pointing out that Dave sought and received permission from HP to redistribute the materials on the DVD. See this link for more info (as well as another discussion of copyrights).

John
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07-15-2016, 12:11 AM
Post: #71
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-13-2016 12:49 PM)Gene Wrote:  As to new projects :-) I would still like to see a couple of things:

1) Please find a fairly required .rom (such as the PowerCL, OSX3, etc.) to add INC and DEC as standard operating system functions. It is so nice not to have to do ISG X and add a NOP afterward. Is there any room anywhere in a rom most of us will always have plugged in to add these two short functions? :-)

and

2) I would still love to see the .raw files for the HP 67 games that have already been converted into HP 41 equivalents that are free for the downloading here on MoHPC put into a .rom with the card reader 7XXX functions. These are games that have no equivalent in the 41CL at present. I'm not talking about yet another blackjack :-) but games with no HP 41 option today.

Food for thought and a wink. ;-)


Angel, don't forget my pleas here for a couple of new projects. :-)
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07-15-2016, 01:36 AM
Post: #72
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 11:25 PM)John R Wrote:  Regarding copyrights and the scans on the Museum DVD, it is worth pointing out that Dave sought and received permission from HP to redistribute the materials on the DVD. See this link for more info (as well as another discussion of copyrights).

I'm aware that HP granted permission to redistribute the documents. In fact, at one point they granted global permission to anybody to redistribute obsolete manuals, for free or for money. I was never questioning the ethicality of that particular act; I was merely holding it up as an example that this community does not necessarily "pride itself in the free exchange of information" to the exclusion of the contrary. In terms of obsolete HP product documentation, it's probably the least free category of all.
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07-15-2016, 04:54 AM
Post: #73
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-15-2016 12:11 AM)Gene Wrote:  
(07-13-2016 12:49 PM)Gene Wrote:  As to new projects :-) I would still like to see a couple of things:

1) Please find a fairly required .rom (such as the PowerCL, OSX3, etc.) to add INC and DEC as standard operating system functions. It is so nice not to have to do ISG X and add a NOP afterward. Is there any room anywhere in a rom most of us will always have plugged in to add these two short functions? :-)

and

2) I would still love to see the .raw files for the HP 67 games that have already been converted into HP 41 equivalents that are free for the downloading here on MoHPC put into a .rom with the card reader 7XXX functions. These are games that have no equivalent in the 41CL at present. I'm not talking about yet another blackjack :-) but games with no HP 41 option today.

Food for thought and a wink. ;-)


Angel, don't forget my pleas here for a couple of new projects. :-)

Something tells me you're not going to let me forget ;-)
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07-15-2016, 05:52 AM
Post: #74
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-14-2016 11:21 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  After all, it takes time to type a response, and time is money.

Touché.


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Howard
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07-15-2016, 07:24 AM
Post: #75
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-15-2016 04:54 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Something tells me you're not going to let me forget ;-)

Forget what?


Pauli
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07-15-2016, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2016 09:50 AM by Mike (Stgt).)
Post: #76
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
Regarding content of ROMs we could also talk about firmware in general. Do "we" have all the ROMs to emulate the corresponding calculator? For example the HP18C. Or the HP10C.

About collecting and investing time and more in this hobby, over time I got a different point of view about it. One day you will leave all behind (an I doubt that Franc Sinatra has a benefit from the toupee they burried with his body). A saying goes that the best things in life are for free. Many years ago I was eagerly looking for the PPC ROM. What a joy when one day I had it in hand, for almost nothing.

On the other hand I know that two persons did 'take' the ROM of the HP10C. They will not give it away to me. I can live with that.

Ciao.....Mike
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07-15-2016, 10:58 AM
Post: #77
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-15-2016 09:49 AM)Mike (Stgt) Wrote:  On the other hand I know that two persons did 'take' the ROM of the HP10C. They will not give it away to me. I can live with that.

I have a 10C with a keyboard issue that I will happily lend for free to anybody with the skills and tools to extract the ROM. The only condition is that he/she will share the ROM image with the community. If additionally the keyboard issue can be fixed that would be a nice bonus :-)
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07-15-2016, 11:26 AM
Post: #78
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(07-15-2016 10:58 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  I have a 10C with a keyboard issue that I will happily lend for free to anybody with the skills and tools to extract the ROM. The only condition is that he/she will share the ROM image with the community.

Thank you very much for your very kind offer. If Michael Steinmann joins this year's Allschwil meeting I'll ask him once more. As I understood him correctly last time, it could be simple to "migrate" the Voyager ROMs. Alas - and this is my fault - I did not dig deeper into the subject as there was a presentation that attracted me a bit more, and then an other one, and then an other one and -- you know, everybody has something to tell there. May be this time also about how to take ROMs from Voyagers... Smile

But, as I said before, I can live with the situation as it is (as my Grandma said "wäge däm chasch einewäg warm brunze" - without it you will still piss warm), there is sufficient else to do for me, there are also other emulators: http://www.hercules-390.eu

Ciao.....Mike
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08-03-2016, 06:39 PM
Post: #79
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(06-15-2014 03:11 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Folks, it's been over 33 years since the 41 was launched, and about 20 after its obsolescence - so it's probably time for a last community effort to preserve its module legacy.

I do not agree that the HP-41 is obsolete - still a lot of fun :-) - but I agree that we should keep on to preserve its modules. Here is my contribution: the Schenck Balancing Module / Auswuchtmodul CAB 41.

You can download it here. I've also sent the archive to TOS so it may show up there, too.

Besides the ROM images there is also a German manual included. Unfortunately, I didn't found an English manual yet, but a user of the CAB 41 module has compiled some quick start instructions that may help a bit. Furthermore I've found an application note from Bruel & Kjaer named "Static and Dynamic Balancing of Rigid Rotors" which gives some information about balancing problems and computations.

I know at least of one guy that is still using this module for his work (another point against obsolescence). A few years ago he contacted me because his CAB 41 module didn't work anymore and showed some random failures. Surprisingly, it worked fine in my 41CL (no idea why it makes a difference), and I could save the ROM image and burn it into CLONIX module. That guy was very happy that he got a working clone (which BTW is still working).

Enjoy and always stay "well balanced" :-)
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08-03-2016, 09:36 PM
Post: #80
RE: 41 Module Library: Last chance for common sense
(08-03-2016 06:39 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote:  
(06-15-2014 03:11 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Folks, it's been over 33 years since the 41 was launched, and about 20 after its obsolescence - so it's probably time for a last community effort to preserve its module legacy.

I do not agree that the HP-41 is obsolete - still a lot of fun :-) - but I agree that we should keep on to preserve its modules. Here is my contribution: the Schenck Balancing Module / Auswuchtmodul CAB 41.

Should this be included in the 41CL Flash contents? Instructions say "insert in Port 1." Is that restriction real?
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