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Plea to Drakon
05-10-2014, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-10-2014 12:23 PM by walter b.)
Post: #1
Plea to Drakon
Please, disable <New Reply>. This button is an annoying source of repeating confusion.

Reasoning: Anybody who replies to a post replies to a particular one and shall clearly indicate to which - it shouldn't be left to the guesswork of the next reader(s) due to pure sloppyness of the respondent.

If possible, rename <Quote> to <Reply> thereafter. Automatics will put the new response at the right position in the thread then even if no old text is quoted.

d:-/

Edit: Actually, the forum automatic will take care of everything - there will be no extra work neither for the administrator nor for any forumer in this matter. There was (and is) simply no need for the button <New Reply> from the very beginning - it's only adding confusion.
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05-10-2014, 01:22 PM
Post: #2
RE: Plea to Drakon
just to annoy Walter... Big Grin

Greetings,
    Massimo

-+×÷ ↔ left is right and right is wrong
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05-10-2014, 02:28 PM
Post: #3
RE: Plea to Drakon
Yup, Massimo ;-p.

Walter, I have a similar problem if someone quotes a contribution, deletes the quote, and insert his answer. In regular/standard view it is shown at an arbitrary position (noticed this only once-maybe it was you, but I might be wrong).

Apparently (based on the above mentioned observation) most people use the linear mode instead of the threaded one, and since that set includes me, I hope Dave just disables the threaded view.

We have some subfora and are able to create new threads. No need to fork something out, going more and more offtopic.
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05-10-2014, 02:43 PM
Post: #4
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 02:28 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  I have a similar problem if someone quotes a contribution, deletes the quote, and insert his answer. In regular/standard view it is shown at an arbitrary position (noticed this only once-maybe it was you, but I might be wrong).

Thomas, I sincerely hope I wasn't that guy - at least I don't remember nor can I imagine how to reach such a status as you describe.

OTOH, please note that fulfilling my wish won't change anything in the mess you call 'regular/standard view'. You'll still get the posts sorted as they arrive; so your joy to find out where they belong logically will be reduced in no way. For those who'd prefer a somewhat sorted communication, however, advantages are striking.

Ok, I admit physics tells us entropy is rising continuously, so going from the old to the new forum something had to become worse, perhaps. After all, it's just a humble plea to Drakon who may feel similar.

d:-/
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05-10-2014, 03:36 PM
Post: #5
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 02:43 PM)walter b Wrote:  OTOH, please note that fulfilling my wish won't change anything in the mess you call 'regular/standard view'.
Actually it does. A reply to the original posting would require quoting it, i.e., get back to page one or scroll up, maybe delete the content.

Today I tried the threaded mode. As a matter of fact, the 'new reply' button correctly inserts the new contribution just one level down beneath the original posting. Maybe we could have new button titles ('Reply to Thread' and 'Reply to Post') to clear up the situation.
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05-10-2014, 03:42 PM
Post: #6
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 03:36 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  A reply to the original posting would require quoting it

Well, if we leave aside questions of one very keen now member,
most new threads are sufficiently complex to brook a little citation....

a.
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05-10-2014, 05:52 PM
Post: #7
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 03:36 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  
(05-10-2014 02:43 PM)walter b Wrote:  OTOH, please note that fulfilling my wish won't change anything in the mess you call 'regular/standard view'.
Actually it does. A reply to the original posting would require quoting it, i.e., get back to page one or scroll up, maybe delete the content.

Today I tried the threaded mode. As a matter of fact, the 'new reply' button correctly inserts the new contribution just one level down beneath the original posting. Maybe we could have new button titles ('Reply to Thread' and 'Reply to Post') to clear up the situation.

You're getting me wrong. Maybe we can do an example:

Assume you're reading post #4 in a thread of 10 posts. Now you want to reply directly to that post you're reading.

Method A: You press <New Reply> and key in your response. As soon as you press <Post Reply>, the system takes your reply to post #4 and puts it 'one level down beneath the original posting' (which is post #1) at the end of the thread. Now it's filed as a response to post #1 though - which is not what you wrote.

Method B: You press <Quote> and key in your response (you may delete the quotation completely). As soon as you press <Post Reply>, the system takes your reply to post #4 and puts it one level down beneath post #4 (see the analogy?). Now it's properly filed as a response to post #4 - which is what you wrote.

Please note method B works for a response to post #1 as well: Reading post #1 you press <Quote> and proceed as described above. This method is quite intuitive IMHO since you will usually respond to something you're reading instead of something you've read half an hour ago. Thus, there is no need for a second reply key - which made me asking for disabling <New Reply> for obvious reasons. If you want added comfort, you might want a key <Reply w/out quoting> but also this one shall put your response one level down the post you're responding to instead of linking it erroneously to post #1.

Alles klar?

d:-)
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05-11-2014, 05:32 AM
Post: #8
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 05:52 PM)walter b Wrote:  Assume you're reading post #4 in a thread of 10 posts. Now you want to reply directly to that post you're reading.

Method A: You press <New Reply> and key in your response. As soon as you press <Post Reply>, the system takes your reply to post #4 and puts it 'one level down beneath the original posting' (which is post #1) at the end of the thread. Now it's filed as a response to post #1 though - which is not what you wrote.
In this case the reference would be lost in either view mode, and no one should post this way.

Usually, I both reply to the original post and to the last post in the linear view by 'new reply'. In the latter case, it isn't sorted correctly, but there's an advantage I often use and which can be seen in this very thread: I answered to Massimo and to your original posting without the need to quote anything. Everyone reading the thread in linear mode immediately recognizes this.

I guess, if I would use the threaded mode, I'd strongly support your plea. But I don't since I dislike fighting wind mills ;-).
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05-11-2014, 05:43 AM
Post: #9
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 05:52 PM)walter b Wrote:  Alles klar?
Hopefully now it is. The problem arises when replying in threaded mode only, right? Somehow managed to overlook that.

Yes of course, in threaded mode this button should go.
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05-11-2014, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2014 12:47 PM by walter b.)
Post: #10
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-11-2014 05:43 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Yes of course, in threaded mode this button should go.

OK, thanks for agreeing on this finally. Smile

Ω Δράκων, ποῦ εἶ;

d:-)
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05-12-2014, 05:50 AM
Post: #11
RE: Plea to Drakon
While we're at it:

In "linear mode", AFAICS, each new post is displayed as if it was a response to post #1 anyway; and sorting is simply as posts come in. So what's the benefit of sporting two buttons, <Quote> and <New Reply> here? If none specific, <New Reply> can go there as well IMHO. (So the underlying structure of the DB will stay identical, just the display of threads will look different - as is now.)

d:-)
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05-12-2014, 07:29 AM
Post: #12
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-12-2014 05:50 AM)walter b Wrote:  In "linear mode", AFAICS, each new post is displayed as if it was a response to post #1 anyway; and sorting is simply as posts come in. So what's the benefit of sporting two buttons, <Quote> and <New Reply> here?
Ease of use for linear mode users:

(05-10-2014 03:36 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  A reply to the original posting would require quoting it, i.e., get back to page one or scroll up, maybe delete the content.
And:
(05-11-2014 05:32 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Usually, I both reply to the original post and to the last post in the linear view by 'new reply'. In the latter case, it isn't sorted correctly, but there's an advantage I often use and which can be seen in this very thread: I answered to Massimo and to your original posting without the need to quote anything. Everyone reading the thread in linear mode immediately recognizes this.

FWIW, *I* could live without New Reply if I must. It's just hard to spend this little extra time only beneficial to threaded view users, especially when their number might not be very much higher than 1 :-P.

Please start a poll about this. Maybe you have some more users in your camp ;-).
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05-14-2014, 03:41 AM
Post: #13
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-10-2014 09:18 AM)walter b Wrote:  Please, disable <New Reply>. This button is an annoying source of repeating confusion.

Reasoning: Anybody who replies to a post replies to a particular one and shall clearly indicate to which - it shouldn't be left to the guesswork of the next reader(s) due to pure sloppyness of the respondent.

FWIW, I disagree, because there are (and ought to be) three kinds of postings:

New Thread -- for non-replies.
Quote -- for replies to individual postings.
New Reply -- for contributions to entire ongoing discussions (not merely replies to any one specific posting).

For example, if the overall topic of an ongoing discussion tickles my fancy, and prompts me to add my two cents' worth to that discussion, then New Reply is appropriate, because I'm addressing the whole topic itself, not any one particular posting, or any one particular person. By eliminating the New Reply button, all postings would be forced to be replies to specific postings; general subject-related contributions would be impossible. At least that's how it seems to me.

It would probably be overkill to rename "Quote" to "Reply to this one posting", and renaming "New Reply" to "Contribute something new to this whole discussion" ... but that IS what these buttons were intended for by the software designers, and that seems like a Good Thing to me.

Is the problem that some New Replies are unclear due to lack of context? If so, that's not New Reply's fault, but rather how it's used by thoughtless writers.

Disclaimer: Just thinking out loud. I'll be happy with whatever is decided. I have no dog in this fight.

X<> c
-Joe-
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05-16-2014, 09:25 AM
Post: #14
RE: Plea to Drakon
Joe,

(05-14-2014 03:41 AM)Joe Horn Wrote:  
(05-10-2014 09:18 AM)walter b Wrote:  Please, disable <New Reply>. This button is an annoying source of repeating confusion.

Reasoning: Anybody who replies to a post replies to a particular one and shall clearly indicate to which - it shouldn't be left to the guesswork of the next reader(s) due to pure sloppyness of the respondent.

FWIW, I disagree, because there are (and ought to be) three kinds of postings:

New Thread -- for non-replies.
Quote -- for replies to individual postings.
New Reply -- for contributions to entire ongoing discussions (not merely replies to any one specific posting).

I agree on most parts of your post but disagree on what you call your third kind of posting. All the ongoing discussions on this forum are sorted in threads. So "if the overall topic of an ongoing discussion tickles my fancy, and prompts me to add my two cents' worth to that discussion" you are going to respond to that thread, i.e. to post #1. KISS.

Quote:Is the problem that some New Replies are unclear due to lack of context? If so, that's not New Reply's fault, but rather how it's used by thoughtless writers.

Maybe. So we can try to change people or to improve the forum environment. I'm not very optimistic about the first (see my OP), thus I vote for the latter.

d:-)
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05-18-2014, 09:12 AM
Post: #15
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-16-2014 09:25 AM)walter b Wrote:  I agree on most parts of your post but disagree on what you call your third kind of posting. All the ongoing discussions on this forum are sorted in threads. So "if the overall topic of an ongoing discussion tickles my fancy, and prompts me to add my two cents' worth to that discussion" you are going to respond to that thread, i.e. to post #1. KISS.
Hi Walter,
Doesn't it vary with usage?
Quote: when you comment one aspect (and generally I split)
New reply: when you comment the whole topic or for super simple mono topic threads (generally the ones I start ;-) )

If you are to quote more than just a snippet, it probably means the whole thread is going off topic...
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05-18-2014, 03:47 PM
Post: #16
RE: Plea to Drakon
I agree with Joe Horn, and I would add that people are pretty familiar with various forum software. There are only a few popular versions of which this is one. No need to change things.

And, excessive quoting is as annoying as insufficient quoting. If you can't figure out what is being said then it is probably not important to you. I have seen a lot of time spent trying to force people into various modes of responding and those efforts take more bandwidth than the accused, in all cases.

Live and let live. There are enough things to get upset about if you look for them. This isn't one.

PLONK Wink

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05-19-2014, 03:03 AM
Post: #17
RE: Plea to Drakon
OK, I think the proposal is that New Reply should be removed from the threaded view. I'm guessing not many people use that view but I would be fine with removing it - however, I think this should be recommended to the myBB developers. I'd like to keep the core code and the UI as standard as possible. If they decide to make that tweek to a future version, we would pick that up here.
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05-19-2014, 08:13 AM
Post: #18
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-19-2014 03:03 AM)Dave Hicks Wrote:  OK, I think the proposal is that New Reply should be removed from the threaded view.

Sorry, that's plain wrong. <New Reply> should be removed in general - though the mess it generates becomes obvious in threaded view only. <New Reply> destroys the underlying logical order between posts and responses within a thread which "linear viewers" choose to neglect.

Alas, it seems most forumers have chosen linear view indicating they aren't interested in maintaining a logical sequence of responses anymore. So a plain timeline is all they want to have. A major step back in forum structure IMHO (compared to the old forum as well as to what would have been possible in the new one). Sad

It's a pity. Sad
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05-19-2014, 03:09 PM
Post: #19
RE: Plea to Drakon
(05-12-2014 07:29 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 05:50 AM)walter b Wrote:  In "linear mode", AFAICS, each new post is displayed as if it was a response to post #1 anyway; and sorting is simply as posts come in. So what's the benefit of sporting two buttons, <Quote> and <New Reply> here?
Ease of use for linear mode users:

And general familiarity. I just browsed around a bunch of forums I visit now and then and they all had the New Reply buttons. Many of these forums had no threaded mode that I could find. Of the ones that did have a threaded mode, that mode varied quite a bit from forum to forum and some of those did drop the new reply in threaded mode.

Thus, I suspect you could make a successful argument to convince the myBB developers to drop it from the threaded mode, but I think it would be much harder to convince them to drop it from the linear/standard mode. I don't think I would be fond of simply dropping the button in all modes, but as part of a well thought-out redesign of the linear UI, it might be OK. Any time I change anything here, it annoys some people, and I use the big buttons myself all the time. Honestly it had never occurred to me that in some forums where I do that, it might make less sense to some people who use a different viewing mode from the default mode.

Another forum I visit used to have a "New Thread" button right next to the "Post Reply" button. I'm sure the forum admin thought that was clever and efficient, but the forum ended up getting threads that made no sense because people thought they were making short replies and had no idea how they created separate threads. Now that forum looks like other forums with only big "Post Reply" buttons at the top and bottom.

This time I pressed the quote button which could seem strange in the threaded mode since it quotes Thomas' post but is also really a reply to Walter/all. But in linear mode - which is what I'm used to using just about everywhere these days, I think it works just fine. When linear (VB-style?) forums started taking over around 2000, I thought they were a step backwards too, but now I'm used to them and like them.
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05-30-2014, 04:11 PM
Post: #20
RE: Plea to Drakon
Walter;
You're the only one this really matters a great deal to. I can see why though. Keeping track of all the suggestions / complaints / questions / bug reports for the WP34S must have been even more difficult without being threaded and referenced by a quote. You probably got tired of answering the same question twice too.
When you start shipping the 43 and discussion starts here about that maybe we all should start using the quote button there even if we erase 99% of the quoted material. Otherwise we'll be making that job into hell 2.0 for you.
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