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41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
06-14-2018, 02:29 PM
Post: #1
41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
Hi, I need to install the CLXPMEM Library on my 41CV V5, at this moment in the form of my nsimII emulator.
(Yes, I am waiting for a new batch, I have already ordered my 41CL)
I have tested various number of configurations, but CLXPMEM do not work.
I installed CLXPMEM as XPMM.
This is my page structure:
Page Port Module Description
4 = LIBRARY#4
8 1L OSX3 AMC OSX-4
9 1U XPMM CLXPMEM
A 2L PWRX CLUTILS-AH
B 2U YFNX
C 3L MASS X MASS STORAGE
D 3U WRAM W&W RAMBOX 64

the command PGCAT from OSX3 (XEQ ALPHA PGCAT ALPHA)
return:
3:-EXT FCN 3B
4:-LIBRARY#4
5:-TIME 3A
6:-PRINTER-
7: NO ROM (Reserved for HP-IL ---> PIL-BOX)
8:-OSX BANK2
9:-CLXMEM 1L
A:-PWRCL EXT
B:-YFNX
C:-X MASS STG
D:-RAMBOX 64B.
E:CARD RDR 1E
F: NO ROM (FREE)

I verified the installation with CHKSYS from OSX3 (XEQ ALPHA CHKSYS ALPHA)
that returns CONFIG OK

But all commands from CLXMEM 1L (That I installed with ALPHA XPMM ALPHA XEQ ALPHA PLUG1U ALPHA)
returns NOEXISTENT. I tested the commands YAST, YSTO and CLYRG.

I thank you so much for all your help!!!
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06-14-2018, 06:27 PM
Post: #2
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
This may be a version mismatch, likely since you're mixing modules created at different times (and even years).

The CL_Expanded module id#="XPMM" is meant to be paired with the PowerCl_Extreme, id# = "PWRX". Then the Library#4 revision "R" or higher is also required.

You can get the latest revision ROM images from the CL Site, in the : Other Files" area:
http://systemyde.com/hp41/files.html

Let us know if after the update you still have issues.
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06-15-2018, 01:18 PM
Post: #3
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
Thank you very much for your help!
I have same experiences with the HP-41X emulator by HRAST PROGRAMMER for the hp 50g, that has not every HP-IL support. I ordered a 41CL to use with PIL-BOX to emulate HP-IL peripherals.
I do not know the 41CL so I study et experiences it on my nsimII emulator.
I uograde all .MOD modules from 41CL web site, but honestly I do not know what is the version of 41CL
emulated by my nsimII, if is V2, V3, V4 or V5.
I think is better for me to wait that 41CL board is available again, because even after your help,
no things are changed! The XPMM commads are still NONEXISTENT.
For info, my new page structure is:
Page Port Description
4 = LIBRARY#4 (I do not know how to see the revision of the library)
8 1L OSX3
9 1U YFNX 2B
A 2L PWRX \ Paired in port 2
B 2U XPMM / with XPMM
C 3L MASS
D 3U WRAM

Again thank you very much for your help (and for you very valuable software for 41CL)
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06-16-2018, 07:45 AM
Post: #4
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-15-2018 01:18 PM)Podalirius Wrote:  I do not know the 41CL so I study et experiences it on my nsimII emulator.
I uograde all .MOD modules from 41CL web site, but honestly I do not know what is the version of 41CL emulated by my nsimII, if is V2, V3, V4 or V5.
I think is better for me to wait that 41CL board is available again, because even after your help,
no things are changed! The XPMM commads are still NONEXISTENT.

Do you mean a true CL emulator???
If so, does it also provide support for the RAM space available on the real CL board?

The XPMM includes a test for the board addresses. If those are not available then you'll get the NONEXISTENT error message...

Cheers,
ÁM
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06-16-2018, 12:18 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2018 12:20 PM by Sylvain Cote.)
Post: #5
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-16-2018 07:45 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  Do you mean a true CL emulator???
If so, does it also provide support for the RAM space available on the real CL board?
nsimII (available on TOS) is developed by Christophe Gottheimer and is based on nsim developed by Eric Smith.
The last version that I am aware of is v0.40.0 (2015-07-02), the source code used to be available on github, but no longer it seems.
You can see some of his posts (en Français) here and here.
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06-17-2018, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 06-17-2018 10:48 AM by Podalirius.)
Post: #6
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
Hi, Yes nsimII seems to contains all the memory (RAM + ROM) of the 41CL,
but nsimII emulates all hp 41 models and the support for 41CL is still in Beta release.
.....
I know programming (especially userRPL, sysRPL and C on hp 50G) but not Assembler or MCODE.
I have no familiarity with page indexing and memory address.
I have the sensation that the 41CL can be too difficult for me, and I have the sensation that is so easy
to make mistakes that damage the 41CL. Is 41CL a good choice for me? I am ready to study 41CL manuals,
but I do not know and/or find 41CL manuals with a basic approach.
I ask me if 41CL is too difficult for me!
Any suggestions?
Again and again, Thank you very much!!
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06-17-2018, 01:05 PM
Post: #7
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-17-2018 10:38 AM)Podalirius Wrote:  I ask me if 41CL is too difficult for me!

The 41CL may look like it's enormous mountain to climb, but in reality it's not that hard.

At the basic level, you can use it like a supercharged 41CX which contains all the modules that you activate or deactivate based on your current needs.
This is almost the same as if you were using a 41C/CV/CX with a MLDL/RAM/Flash/FRAM box/module (MLDL2K, Clonix-D, NoV-64, etc).

At the intermediate level, you start to understand the 41CL memory organization and start to play with advanced 41CL modules from Monte, Ángel & others.
At that level, more time is needed for reading and experimentations, which may result with your 41CL crashing or locking up, but you can always get the 41CL out of these states.

After that it's up to you ... Wink

What's was frustrating for the first years, at least for me, was how to keep the 41CL up do date with new module releases.
Thanks to Monte, that issue has been addressed and it's now pretty easy to do so.

Sylvain
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06-18-2018, 08:42 AM
Post: #8
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-17-2018 01:05 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  At the intermediate level, you start to understand the 41CL memory organization and start to play with advanced 41CL modules from Monte, Ángel & others.
At that level, more time is needed for reading and experimentations, which may result with your 41CL crashing or locking up, but you can always get the 41CL out of these states.

Hi Sylvain, can you please provide the manuals to read in sequence to learn and understand the CL Memory Organisation and CL Extreme functions?

Many thanks,
Patrik
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06-18-2018, 01:13 PM
Post: #9
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-18-2018 08:42 AM)CY-CL Wrote:  
(06-17-2018 01:05 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  At the intermediate level, you start to understand the 41CL memory organization and start to play with advanced 41CL modules from Monte, Ángel & others.
At that level, more time is needed for reading and experimentations, which may result with your 41CL crashing or locking up, but you can always get the 41CL out of these states.

Hi Sylvain, can you please provide the manuals to read in sequence to learn and understand the CL Memory Organisation and CL Extreme functions?

Many thanks,
Patrik

The manuals are on the manuals page of Monte's 41CL site, http://www.systemyde.com/hp41/manuals.html

The overall memory structure is described in the "Calculator Manual" and the Extreme Functions are described in a separate manual for that ROM.

I recommend you read them slowly, frequently reference the memory layout diagrams, and try the various settings, you can't hurt the CL board.

--Bob Prosperi
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06-18-2018, 05:26 PM
Post: #10
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-18-2018 01:13 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  
(06-18-2018 08:42 AM)CY-CL Wrote:  Hi Sylvain, can you please provide the manuals to read in sequence to learn and understand the CL Memory Organisation and CL Extreme functions?

Many thanks,
Patrik

The manuals are on the manuals page of Monte's 41CL site, http://www.systemyde.com/hp41/manuals.html

The overall memory structure is described in the "Calculator Manual" and the Extreme Functions are described in a separate manual for that ROM.

I recommend you read them slowly, frequently reference the memory layout diagrams, and try the various settings, you can't hurt the CL board.

I know that my manuals are not perfect. As evidenced by the fact that I have had
multiple requests for a "41CL For Dummies." The problem is that I have a hard time
knowing how much readers already know or don't already know about the 41C. In
addition, I am used to writing for a very technical audience, so I make unconscious
assumptions about technical terms. That, plus writing is hard.

So, my advice mirrors that of Robert: Start with the 41CL Manual. Once you have
a reasonable handle on that, go on to the Extreme Functions manual. While you
can't damage the 41CL board, once you start playing with the functions that
erase or write to Flash memory, just be careful not to try to write to the sector
where the Operating System resides. (See what I mean? There are at least three
assumptions about knowledge of technical terms in that last sentence.)

There are lots of people here who are happy to answer questions, and I do my
best to respond to email questions, although sometimes my answers will be "read
paragraph x on page y of the manual."

Monte
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06-19-2018, 10:57 AM
Post: #11
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
Hi, I love the power of computer-like calculators.
I use my hp 50g with 2GB SDCARD as a real computer, after
years of programming, especially in SysRPL.
The Sy 41CL is another world. It seems have a very lack
of power and functions, compared with a modern hp 50g,
but I think this is a false sensation. The 41CL is simply
not comparable, hidden under the little no graphic display,
is a very powerfull system and the sum of functions
presents in all available modules is possibly even greater
that the number of functions in hp 50g.
And, more important, I have found here a true friendly
community in support on the new user.
So, I am reassured about the possibility for me to use
profitably the 41CL and I decided to confirm my 41CL
order. At this moment for me is the moment to study the
manuals and to wait that 41CL become available again.
Thank you so much for your very valuable and friendly help.
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06-19-2018, 11:24 AM
Post: #12
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
You won't regret it, the CL is a powerhouse in disguise - and a very enjoyable system.
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06-19-2018, 02:33 PM
Post: #13
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
Hi Monte

Many thanks for your reply. Your manuals reflect for sure any detail about the CL functions. For a non-nerd like me, some technical details are not really easy to understand. I read the manuals a few times and don’t understand the flash memory organization. What is stored in witch section? A diagram like for the HP-41 memory pages would be very helpful to understand better the internal memory structure from a CL. (Not a list of HEX codes!)

What scenarios with the Flash-Memory are possible?

- Store the actual calculator state to a flash sector and restore it after a Memory Lost.
- Store programs and data’s in the flash sector, like in a rambox.

Other scenarios?

Thanks
Patrik
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06-19-2018, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 06-21-2018 04:38 AM by Ángel Martin.)
Post: #14
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-19-2018 02:33 PM)CY-CL Wrote:  What is stored in witch section? A diagram like for the HP-41 memory pages would be very helpful to understand better the internal memory structure from a CL.

Let me throw a few basic concepts to get you going:-

You can think of flash memory as a gigantic repository where hundreds of ROMS are pre-stored from the factory. It is a non-volatile storage space, so its contents is permanent even without batteries.

There's also a RAM section on the CL board that can hold dozens of ROM modules. This section comes EMPTY and is available for use. CL_RAM contents will be lost if the batteries are removed from the calculator - but won't be affected by MEMORY LOST, since the CL RAM is not the same as the "HP-41 pages".

- You can copy ROMs from flash into CL_RAM. You can also burn flash sectors using the contents of RAM blocks.

The way FLASH and CL_RAM are utilized is as follows:

- The CL has the same number of "pages" available to the O/S as the standard HP-41, i.e. 16 in total: 8 internal and 8 in the plug-in ports.

- The CL uses a facility called "MMU" to map any of those ROMS into CL "pages". Obviously the O/S is mapped to pages 0,1,2,3, the Time module to page 5, and the HP-IL (when connected) to pages 6 and 7.

- Except the O/S mentioned above, this ROM-mapping is totally flexible and configurable by the user. It can even be modified from within a FOCAL program running if you want.

Hope this helps getting over the hump.

ÁM
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06-19-2018, 05:03 PM
Post: #15
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-17-2018 10:38 AM)Podalirius Wrote:  Hi, Yes nsimII seems to contains all the memory (RAM + ROM) of the 41CL,
but nsimII emulates all hp 41 models and the support for 41CL is still in Beta release.

WOW... compliments!!!
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06-20-2018, 04:18 AM (This post was last modified: 06-20-2018 04:19 AM by Monte Dalrymple.)
Post: #16
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-19-2018 02:33 PM)CY-CL Wrote:  Hi Monte

Many thanks for your reply. Your manuals reflect for sure any detail about the CL functions. For a non-nerd like me, some technical details are not really easy to understand. I read the manuals a few times and don’t understand the flash memory organization. What is stored in witch section? A diagram like for the HP-41 memory pages would be very helpful to understand better the internal memory structure from a CL. (Not a list of HEX codes!)

What scenarios with the Flash-Memory are possible?

- Store the actual calculator state to a flash sector and restore it after a Memory Lost.
- Store programs and data’s in the flash sector, like in a rambox.

Other scenarios?

Thanks
Patrik

The memory reference document at http://systemyde.com/pdf/mem_ref.pdf
shows the organization of both the Flash memory and RAM.

Flash can be used to store the calculator state, programs or data. However it's
a little more complicated than accessing the 41C register memory. The manuals
describe this. The main issue with Flash is that the erased state is 0xFFFF in
each word, and in a word a write can only change a "1" to a "0" and never
vice-versa. The only way to get a "0" back to a "1" is to erase an entire
sector, which is 64k bytes. So it's better to use the 41CL RAM to store most
stuff.
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06-21-2018, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 06-21-2018 08:19 PM by cgh.)
Post: #17
RE: 41CL How to install CLUTILS-4H
(06-15-2018 01:18 PM)Podalirius Wrote:  Thank you very much for your help!
I have same experiences with the HP-41X emulator by HRAST PROGRAMMER for the hp 50g, that has not every HP-IL support. I ordered a 41CL to use with PIL-BOX to emulate HP-IL peripherals.
I do not know the 41CL so I study et experiences it on my nsimII emulator.
I uograde all .MOD modules from 41CL web site, but honestly I do not know what is the version of 41CL
emulated by my nsimII, if is V2, V3, V4 or V5.
I think is better for me to wait that 41CL board is available again, because even after your help,
no things are changed! The XPMM commads are still NONEXISTENT.
For info, my new page structure is:
Page Port Description
4 = LIBRARY#4 (I do not know how to see the revision of the library)
8 1L OSX3
9 1U YFNX 2B
A 2L PWRX \ Paired in port 2
B 2U XPMM / with XPMM
C 3L MASS
D 3U WRAM

Again thank you very much for your help (and for you very valuable software for 41CL)
Hello,
nsimII emulates the NEWT functions, the flash scheme and programming, the RAM and the MMU (but not the TURBO). It does not take into account the different versions. Normally, You see the maximum flash size. I wrote the emulation when the V3 was deployed. So we can consider that nsimII is at least a V3. I do not follow the new versions but, if there is no change in the NEWT CPU instructions, the emulation should work.

What do you expect to install ? Can you, please, describe me the way you try to do this.
What is the version of nsimII you use ?

I am not very active this time, but if you encounter some trouble when using nsimII, please, do not hesite to contact me be mail. You can send an email to me from this site. I will answer faster Smile
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