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HP Forum Archive 21

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Here is a poll again
Message #1 Posted by Walter B on 27 Nov 2012, 5:25 a.m.

Hi all,

We are in an internal discussion about the pro's and con's of different layouts. For a portrait design, the basic question is whether it's preferable having the arithmetic keys on the left side (like they were on the HP-35, continued until the HP-41CX) or on the right (like they were on the HP-27S until the HP-35S). Just imagine the four keys /, x, -, and + swapped with XEQ, ^, v, and EXIT, respectively, on the WP 34S (don't be afraid - we won't do that, we're just discussing basic topics).

So the question is:
Do you have any preferences for either side?
Please tell us - and also indicate being a right- or left-handed person.

Looking forward to your responses d:-)

Walter

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #2 Posted by Harald on 27 Nov 2012, 6:05 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I never had a problem with the classic layout, but I think I slightly prefer the arithmetic keys on the right for a portrait layout. For a landscape layout (which I quite like by the way) I would definitely want to have them on the right. Being right handed is probably the reason for this preference.

Quote:
Just imagine the four keys /, x, -, and + swapped with XEQ, ^, v, and EXIT, respectively, on the WP 34S (don't be afraid - we won't do that, we're just discussing basic topics).

That wouldn't work without rewiring the wake-up pin anyway.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #3 Posted by Paul Dale on 27 Nov 2012, 6:06 a.m.,
in response to message #2 by Harald

No need to worry about the wake up pin. This definitely isn't a suggestion for a change to the 34S.

- Pauli

      
Right, right handed (n.t.)
Message #4 Posted by Maximilian Hohmann on 27 Nov 2012, 6:12 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #5 Posted by Bart (UK) on 27 Nov 2012, 6:45 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

You must be contemplating another calculator? On which platform?

I have become quite used to having the arithmetic keys on the right side, so i would prefer that.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #6 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 27 Nov 2012, 6:54 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Handedness undecided, mostly operating a calculator with the right hand (since ENTER is to the left). Binary operator keys beneath the ENTER key, where it's the only reasonable place for them, please.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #7 Posted by Xavier A. (Brazil) on 27 Nov 2012, 5:37 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Thomas Radtke

I second that choice, and I'm left-handed.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #8 Posted by Mike (Stgt) on 27 Nov 2012, 7:04 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I used to operate the HP41 with my left hand (blindly for entering statistical data) even I am not left-handed (but as piano player I may use both hands for almost everything). Albeit a matter of habituation I'd prefere the +-*/ keys to the left of the numbers.

Where do I get the prize (DM-10 Silver Edition) of the best poll answer contest now? ;)

Ciao.....Mike

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #9 Posted by Harald on 27 Nov 2012, 7:25 a.m.,
in response to message #8 by Mike (Stgt)

Quote:
Where do I get the prize (DM-10 Silver Edition) of the best poll answer contest now? ;)

I hope you are aware that has the arithmetic keys on the right ;)

                  
Just a matter of habituation (NT)
Message #10 Posted by Mike (Stgt) on 27 Nov 2012, 11:34 a.m.,
in response to message #9 by Harald

.

            
It might have been a prize, but ...
Message #11 Posted by Walter B on 27 Nov 2012, 12:51 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by Mike (Stgt)

... sorry, there is no DM-10 Silver Edition ;-)

                  
Re: It might have been a prize, but ...
Message #12 Posted by Harald on 27 Nov 2012, 4:37 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Walter B

I wonder why. Maybe the original version didn't sell very well?
But even if then I don't get it, as all it takes is a different keyboard overlay.

                        
Re: It might have been a prize, but ...
Message #13 Posted by Mike (Stgt) on 28 Nov 2012, 3:54 a.m.,
in response to message #12 by Harald

There is a firmware file for the 10C, even version 10.

Ciao.....Mike

                              
Re: It might have been a prize, but ...
Message #14 Posted by Walter B on 28 Nov 2012, 4:00 a.m.,
in response to message #13 by Mike (Stgt)

But no hardware ;-)

                                    
Re: It might have been a prize, but ...
Message #15 Posted by Mike (Stgt) on 28 Nov 2012, 10:25 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Walter B

When there is SW there will be HW, or an emulator/simulator/virtualisation... ;)

Ciao.....Mike

                                          
Re: It might have been a prize, but ...
Message #16 Posted by Harald on 28 Nov 2012, 12:03 p.m.,
in response to message #15 by Mike (Stgt)

In this case it might be different. I suspect the there is software because there WAS hardware, not because there WILL BE hardware.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #17 Posted by Nigel J Dowrick on 27 Nov 2012, 7:36 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I'm right-handed; I'd like the arithmetic keys on the left-hand side. Possibly more ergonomic; certainly more stylish! I will, of course, gladly accept either.

Nigel (UK)

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #18 Posted by hpnut on 27 Nov 2012, 8:18 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I prefer the four keys on the RIGHT, I am right handed.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #19 Posted by Michael Fehlhammer on 27 Nov 2012, 10:48 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by hpnut

I'm left-handed, and I haven't got a preference at all.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #20 Posted by brian di on 27 Nov 2012, 12:15 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Thanks for asking.

My first documentation search when I got the 34s was to see if I could change the keyboard layout to put the arithmetic keys on the left.

I prefer the left hand layout, but probably because that is what I learned on, but I also believe it works better to have them under the enter key.

Ideally, it would be wonderful if there was a was an option to have the four function keys on the left.

thanks,

Brian

p.s. I am right handed

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #21 Posted by Tim Wessman on 27 Nov 2012, 12:58 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by brian di

How about put the enter key on the right?

TW

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #22 Posted by Dieter on 27 Nov 2012, 2:05 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Tim Wessman

Tim, that's a good point. ;-)

I do not think that the position of the four arithmetic keys (left or right) is that relevant. You can get accustomed to either way. For almost three decades I have been using HP calculators with these keys on the left side, so without any doubt I would have said that "left" is the only way to do it "right". Then I acquired a 35s, and it became my everyday calculator I now use most of the time. After just a few years of 35s use I now sometimes press the wrong keys when I grab my good 41. So I think "left or right" is not an essential question.

However, there is a point that can make a difference. Operating a calculator is faster and more convenient if both hands are used. In this case the keyboard layout is more comfortable if both ENTER and the arithmetic keys are located on the same side. This way one hand may operate these while the other handles the digit keys.

So ENTER on the right should be fine if the arithmetic keys are on the same side. But I admit it would not look quite ...right to me. Especially if this also means that the backspace key moves to the left.

Dieter

                  
Just to make that clear ...
Message #23 Posted by Walter B on 27 Nov 2012, 3:13 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Tim Wessman

... I'm not going to move ENTER to the right. Why? Because it simply would not look right to me having a backspace on the left side. Definitely. Period.

                        
Re: Just to make that clear ...
Message #24 Posted by Peter Murphy (Livermore) on 27 Nov 2012, 3:33 p.m.,
in response to message #23 by Walter B

So the poll ends here?

                              
Re: Just to make that clear ...
Message #25 Posted by Walter B on 27 Nov 2012, 3:43 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Peter Murphy (Livermore)

Quote:
So the poll ends here?
Why? The poll is about four arithmetic keys to be located either left or right of the digits. Please see message #1. The poll is not about moving anything else around - even if a majority would like key 1 top right ;-) That is simply not going to happen. A ballot containing any additional writing like e.g. "the gang of three shall go to hell" is a valid opinion but a spoiled ballot. KISS.

Edited: 27 Nov 2012, 3:49 p.m.

                                    
yet another spoiled ballot
Message #26 Posted by Mike (Stgt) on 28 Nov 2012, 11:14 a.m.,
in response to message #25 by Walter B

If KISS translates "keep it simple, stupid" I suggest the IBM solution delivered several years ago with some 3270 terminals: a key cap remover which allowed the user to change the individual caps of the key board. How to assign a differen functions to a key we know since the HP41C.

And as others mentioned already the useability is not only about the four arithmetic keys to be located either left or right of the digits, also the ENTER (besides x<>y and RDN) is essential for a RPN calcualator. So I continue your "the gang of three shall go to hell" with "and make a *real big* ENTER key, full extended to the width, from left to right". So both, the 'to the left!' _and_ the opposite party would be satisfied. (Leaves the question of the placement of Back Arrow key - up or below the ENTER - how about to the back side with it, as a replacement of the insert-paperclip-to-reset-hole?)

Yet another spoiled ballot.

Ciao.....Mike :)

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #27 Posted by hpnut on 27 Nov 2012, 11:01 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Tim Wessman

That's fine with me as long as ENTER is big :-) not like the puny enter at the right hand bottom corner on the HP 50G

hpnut in Malaysia

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #28 Posted by Mike Morrow on 27 Nov 2012, 2:31 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I prefer the arithmetic operator keys on the right side, but the most overwhelmingly important characteristic is that the ENTER key is above the arithmetic operator keys, regardless of which side those wind up on.

I'm right-handed.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #29 Posted by bluesun08 on 27 Nov 2012, 2:38 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Mike Morrow

I'm absolutely agree with you, Tim and Dieter.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #30 Posted by Derek Walker (UK) on 28 Nov 2012, 2:53 a.m.,
in response to message #28 by Mike Morrow

Quote:
I prefer the arithmetic operator keys on the right side, but the most overwhelmingly important characteristic is that the ENTER key is above the arithmetic operator keys, regardless of which side those wind up on.

I'm right-handed.



I would agree with all of that.
            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #31 Posted by Bart (UK) on 28 Nov 2012, 6:59 a.m.,
in response to message #28 by Mike Morrow

Quote:
...the ENTER key is above the arithmetic operator keys...
I would not agree with that. I started my HP calculator life with the 28C, big ENTER on the left, arithmetic operator keys on the right. So no connection between ENTER and arithmetic operator keys for me.

Also, my preference for arithmetic operator keys on the right is based on what I'm used to, not about being left- or right-handed. I have used calculators with either hand.
      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #32 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 27 Nov 2012, 3:06 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Right, right-handed.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #33 Posted by Lars Bergstr÷m on 27 Nov 2012, 5:01 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I prefer the left side location of the aritmethic keys. It's simply the "righ"t location!

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #34 Posted by Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) on 27 Nov 2012, 5:32 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Right-handed, arithmetic keys on the left side.

Thanks

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #35 Posted by Didier Lachieze on 27 Nov 2012, 6:11 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Left or right, I don't care as long as ENTER stays double wide on the left :)

When using different HP calculators such as the 41 and the 42, the issue for me is not that the arithmetic keys are on left or right, but that their order from top to bottom is different. I don't have a prefered order excepted that it should be consistent with existing calculators : either 41 style for left keys or 42 style for right keys.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #36 Posted by aurelio on 27 Nov 2012, 6:27 p.m.,
in response to message #35 by Didier Lachieze

Quote:
Left or right, I don't care as long as ENTER stays double wide on the left :)

When using different HP calculators such as the 41 and the 42, the issue for me is not that the arithmetic keys are on left or right, but that their order from top to bottom is different. I don't have a prefered order excepted that it should be consistent with existing calculators : either 41 style for left keys or 42 style for right keys.


perfectly agree although in the choice I think that arithmetic keys should be on the left side
      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #37 Posted by Les Koller on 27 Nov 2012, 10:36 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

All 4 operator keys on the right please. I am right handed.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #38 Posted by reth on 27 Nov 2012, 11:42 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Right as on HP48, right handed.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #39 Posted by ┴ngel Martin on 28 Nov 2012, 1:51 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Left.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #40 Posted by Eddie W. Shore on 28 Nov 2012, 7:46 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Right Side

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #41 Posted by fhub on 28 Nov 2012, 8:12 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I vote for the right side (of course)!

I'm right-handed, but that's not the reason. The only calculators I know which have these keys on the left side are a few old HP models. I would guess that 95% (if not even more) of all other calculators (and also the newer HPs) have the arithmetic keys on the right side, so it's just a matter of the usual 'standard'.

Franz

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #42 Posted by David Hayden on 28 Nov 2012, 3:48 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I think the "right" answer depends entirely on whether you operate the calculator with your right hand or your left. As a lefty, I notice all sorts of things in the world that are right-hand friendly.

More than anything else, I think the ENTER key should be above the arithmetic keys. These keys get a lot of use and I think it's better to group them together.

If there's a choice beyond that, my feeling is that the most used keys should be accessed with your pointer finger. That would argue for arithmetic and ENTER keys on the left side for a right-handed user.

The only counter argument I can think of is that putting the arithmetic keys on the left means that a right-handed user would frequently obscure part of the keyboard with their hand as they reached over to press of these keys. That might make it harder to find the next key. If +,-,*,/ are on the right, then most of the keyboard would still be visible when you press them.

Dave

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #43 Posted by Ethan Conner on 28 Nov 2012, 4:30 p.m.,
in response to message #42 by David Hayden

Quote:
The only counter argument I can think of is that putting the arithmetic keys on the left means that a right-handed user would frequently obscure part of the keyboard with their hand as they reached over to press of these keys. That might make it harder to find the next key. If +,-,*,/ are on the right, then most of the keyboard would still be visible when you press them.
Well said and i couldn't agree more. Of course this depends on what hand you use. Which makes me glad we can have calculators on the smartphone with adjustable layouts. Now i just need some brainiac developer to provide this option for the traditional hp calc apps.
            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #44 Posted by hpnut on 28 Nov 2012, 8:55 p.m.,
in response to message #42 by David Hayden

[quote] I think the "right" answer depends entirely on whether you operate the calculator with your right hand or your left. As a lefty, I notice all sorts of things in the world that are right-hand friendly.

Dave,

I feel sorry for you. here's a left-hand friendly place.

http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/product_info.html

cheers,

hpnut in Malaysia

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #45 Posted by Jeff O. on 29 Nov 2012, 12:45 p.m.,
in response to message #44 by hpnut

Quote:
I feel sorry for you.

I'll let Dave speak for himself, but I don't feel that you need to feel too sorry for me as a left-hander. It is not so bad. In some areas, like certain sporting activities, it provides an advantage. Adapting to use right-handed things makes you more versatile. Lots of famous and/or accomplished peopled were/are left-handed, e.g. Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Wolfgang Mozart, Ludwig Van Beethoven, Winston Churchill, Marie Curie, and Albert Einstein. So don't cry for me, world.

As for the poll, I'll say left, so that they are under the ENTER key, which obviously belongs on the left.

Edited: 29 Nov 2012, 12:47 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #46 Posted by David Hayden on 29 Nov 2012, 4:19 p.m.,
in response to message #44 by hpnut

Quote:
Dave,

I feel sorry for you. here's a left-hand friendly place.

http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/product_info.html


Thanks for the link. There's certainly nothing to feel sorry for. I find the world's right-handedness more a curiosity than anything.

My favorite example is pens and pencils, which, believe it or not, are almost always biased for right-handed people. To see this, grab a pen or pencil. Hold it in your left hand like you would when writing with it. Now read the writing on it (99% of the time, it's upside down).

Dave

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #47 Posted by Dominic Richens on 28 Nov 2012, 8:20 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Right - slight preference.

I would like the enter key to be on the same side though, which ever side that is.

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #48 Posted by Quan on 28 Nov 2012, 8:42 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Right. Right-handed

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #49 Posted by Egan Ford on 29 Nov 2012, 12:13 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

I just sat down and monitored my own behavior with the 41CX, 42S, and 34S. I tend to hold them in my hands and thumb-board them. On the 41CX my left thumb controls the ENTER and the operators and the right thumb the numbers. Very fast way to go. On the 42S/34S my left thumb does the ENTER only, and my right thumb does the numbers and the operators--not as quick. However I am used to using my left thumb on the 42S/34S for the arrows--something unnecessary with the 41CX. I also noticed that when I thumb the 42S/34S that my left hand is higher than my right. My left hand tends to get the ENTER and all the keys above it. Feels good.

After some thought ...

Right. Assuming 5 column layout.

Now can we please have a poll on the color of the buttons? I really like the HP LEDs buttons or better yet the 71B color motif. The white number and arithmetic keys are very bold and dare I say, classy. The 42S, while arguably the best HP RPN every made, is boring.....staring at the 71B and wondering why they never made 71B wallpaper

Edited: 29 Nov 2012, 12:15 a.m.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #50 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 1:26 a.m.,
in response to message #49 by Egan Ford

Quote:
Now can we please have a poll on the color of the buttons?
Please wait a bit :-)
            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #51 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 29 Nov 2012, 6:26 a.m.,
in response to message #49 by Egan Ford

Quote:
Now can we please have a poll on the color of the buttons?
Perhaps also one on the number of shift keys. One, as on the HP-41 and HP-42S is too few, IMHO.
                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #52 Posted by Bart (UK) on 29 Nov 2012, 6:36 a.m.,
in response to message #51 by Gerson W. Barbosa

I had to re-read that a few times, too many "ones" :-)

to re-phrase, is this what you meant?:
Perhaps also one (a poll) on the number of shift keys. One (shift key), as on the HP-41 and HP-42S is too few, IMHO.

                        
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #53 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 29 Nov 2012, 9:21 a.m.,
in response to message #52 by Bart (UK)

Ok, you've won :-)

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #54 Posted by Paul Dale on 29 Nov 2012, 6:46 a.m.,
in response to message #51 by Gerson W. Barbosa

On a calculator with n keys, the optimal number of shift keys is n/2. This allows for (n/2+1) * (n/2) = n2/4 + n/2 functions directly accessible. More if we allow shift combinations and held shift keys.

Thus, for a 37 key calculator like the 34S, 17 shift keys provides 324 functions on the keyboard.

The only difficulties are choosing the colours of the shift keys and finding a font small enough to render all the key meanings on the face place.

- Pauli

                        
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #55 Posted by Didier Lachieze on 29 Nov 2012, 7:09 a.m.,
in response to message #54 by Paul Dale

This reminds me the HP41 16-key Laitram XQ2 keyboard: all functions of the HP-41CX plus some HP-IL functions right on the keyboard!

Once you become familiar with this keyboard, you'll wonder why anyone chose to put more than sixteen keys on a hand-held computer. (from the user's manual)

                              
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #56 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 7:44 a.m.,
in response to message #55 by Didier Lachieze

I zoomed the keyboard but can't find how this should work. Only found there was a lawsuit in 1992 :-/ and a set of Laitram patents starting with http://www.google.com/patents/US4547860?hl=de. I don't think the patents will tell me comprehensibly. Is there a manual anywhere for that device?

                                    
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #57 Posted by Didier Lachieze on 29 Nov 2012, 7:52 a.m.,
in response to message #56 by Walter B

On TOS you'll find:

  • Laitram XQ2 Manual
  • Laitram XQ2 Primer
  • Laitram XQ2 Quick Ref
  • Laitram XQ2 Keyboard Overlay
  • Laitram XQ2 Module

Edited: 29 Nov 2012, 7:53 a.m.

                                          
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #58 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 8:05 a.m.,
in response to message #57 by Didier Lachieze

Merci beaucoup! Great reading stuff :-)

Edited: 29 Nov 2012, 12:10 p.m.

                        
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #59 Posted by uhmgawa on 29 Nov 2012, 9:40 a.m.,
in response to message #54 by Paul Dale

Quote:
This allows for (n/2+1) * (n/2) = n2/4 + n/2 functions directly accessible.

Yes mathematically, yet this dismisses ergonomic factors. The overall reason a physical mechanical tactile keyboard still persists in this context is the appeal of legacy ergonomics if not outright nostalgia.

Quote:
The only difficulties are choosing the colours of the shift keys and finding a font small enough to render all the key meanings on the face place.

Even assuming tooling capable of generating the needed legend footprints, the result may not appeal to users, particularly under low lighting conditions and/or for those with matured vision. Moreover the chronic problem of trying to find a single static layout which appeals to the largest number of users remains with only a best effort solution.

I'd expect given the frenzied refinements in portable touch screen design and haptic motor tactile feedback, the discrete, static, mechanical keyboard is near obsolescence in the mid to high end portable space. About the only competitive advantage for the latter is legacy tactile feedback and zero standby power consumption. Cost could be another depending on the design and volume but I'd expect even that to eventually converge for the application here.

                              
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #60 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 11:15 a.m.,
in response to message #59 by uhmgawa

Quote:
Even assuming tooling capable of generating the needed legend footprints, the result may not appeal to users, particularly under low lighting conditions and/or for those with matured vision.
IMHO that's called degraded vision. I do hate so called political correctness, if I didn't tell you yet.
                        
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #61 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 29 Nov 2012, 10:01 a.m.,
in response to message #54 by Paul Dale

I was thinking of choosing among one, two or three keys at most. When the HP-41C designers introduced the alpha system and the keyboard redefinition feature, they were so optimistic they thought only one shift key would suffice. I think an extra shift key would have made it easier to use, as the number of frequently used functions that could be accessed right from the keyboard could practically double. Even the HP-42S could have benefited from a second key. Thus functions and commands like N!, x<>, R^, ->DEG, ->RAD, just to mention a few, would not have to be reached only through menus or the catalog. On the other hand, three shift keys on the HP-42S (and on a hypothetical WP-43S) would be too much, IMHO.

Gerson.

                              
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #62 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 11:11 a.m.,
in response to message #61 by Gerson W. Barbosa

So by a simple majority decision (or call it lack of viable alternatives), there will be two shift keys ;-)

                        
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #63 Posted by Egan Ford on 29 Nov 2012, 10:53 a.m.,
in response to message #54 by Paul Dale

Quote:
Thus, for a 37 key calculator like the 34S, 17 shift keys provides 324 functions on the keyboard.
Why limit yourself to buttons? Throw in a few dials, knobs, and sliders. :-)
                              
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #64 Posted by uhmgawa on 29 Nov 2012, 11:57 a.m.,
in response to message #63 by Egan Ford

Quote:
Why limit yourself to buttons? Throw in a few dials, knobs, and sliders. :-)

That's not necessarily a poor idea. But rather should be justified by a given user interface design. Also such semi-custom features may or may not map well into alternate firmware repurposing. The tactile/haptic schemes are far more generic at the cost of reducing all interaction into that format.

At the other extreme I suppose we could have a single button accepting pulse width encoded data. Morse code is in the public domain, yet I believe Apple would try to claim patent rights on that usage.

                                    
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #65 Posted by Dave Shaffer (Arizona) on 29 Nov 2012, 12:03 p.m.,
in response to message #64 by uhmgawa

Quote:
At the other extreme I suppose we could have a single button accepting pulse width encoded data.

I knew a guy who used to try to enter phone numbers on his old rotary dial phone (which worked by creating pulses on the phone line) by tapping on the button that stuck up where you normally cradled the phone when not in use. I don't know how good he was at it, but I tried it a few times and never was able to dial anything.

                                          
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #66 Posted by uhmgawa on 29 Nov 2012, 12:56 p.m.,
in response to message #65 by Dave Shaffer (Arizona)

Quote:
I knew a guy who used to try to enter phone numbers on his old rotary dial phone (which worked by creating pulses on the phone line) by tapping on the button that stuck up where you normally cradled the phone when not in use. I don't know how good he was at it, but I tried it a few times and never was able to dial anything.

The rotary pulse dialer mechanisms open the line at a typical ~10Hz rate. I'm able to dial out via toggling the plunger switch given the mass/ballistics specific to the old mechanical desk phones. I don't recall ever succeeding doing so with wall phones due to the increased mass of the hook. Although I doubt I came close to 10Hz so there appears to be some generous tolerance in the decoder. I found it was important to maintain enough of an inter-digit deadtime so the decoder can slice individual digit pulse trains.

      
The polling station will close tonight at 23:00 UTC (N.T.)
Message #67 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 6:55 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

.

            
Re: The polling station will close tonight at 23:00 UTC (N.T.)
Message #68 Posted by Richard Ottosen (Denver, CO, USA) on 29 Nov 2012, 5:11 p.m.,
in response to message #67 by Walter B

Did I miss the deadline? :-(

Arithmetic keys on the left below the Enter key (like my beloved HP41C).

I am right handed. I hold the calculator in my left hand and press the keys with my thumb. This frees my right hand for makinmg notes and the like.

-- Rich

                  
Re: The polling station will close tonight at 23:00 UTC (N.T.)
Message #69 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 5:30 p.m.,
in response to message #68 by Richard Ottosen (Denver, CO, USA)

No problem with the deadline - still 30 minutes to go :->

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #70 Posted by Philippe Cairic on 29 Nov 2012, 10:36 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Landscape layout please!!! Other than that, operators on the right side.

      
Poll results
Message #71 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2012, 6:05 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Thank you all. If I counted correctly, there were:

16 votes for arithmetic operators on the right side,
15 votes for arithmetic operators on the left side, and
06 votes for the side where ENTER is located.

Since I made it clear that ENTER will stay left, this translates into:

16 votes (43%) for arithmetic operators on the right side, and
21 votes (57%) for arithmetic operators on the left side.

Thank you for voting d:-)

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #72 Posted by Morten Nygaard ┼snes on 30 Nov 2012, 1:20 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Knowing this is after the deadline, I still want the records to show I would have voted for arithmetic keys on the right had I known about the vote at the time :-) (I'm right handed)

      
Poll results in detail
Message #73 Posted by Walter B on 2 Dec 2012, 1:59 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

Recounting resulted in:

  • 12 votes for arithmetic operators on the right side (by Harald, Maximilian, Bart, hpnut, Gerson, Les, reth, Eddie, fhub, Quan, Egan, Philippe)
  • 11 votes for arithmetic operators on the left side, (by Mike (S), Nigel, brian, Lars, Massimo, aurelio, ┴ngel, David, Ethan, Jeff, Richard) and
  • 5 votes for the side where ENTER is located (by Thomas, Xavier, Mike M., bluesun08, Derek).
  • For sake of completeness: don't care: 2 votes (Michael and Didier), ambiguous: Dominic.
Since I made it clear that ENTER will stay left, this translates into:

12 votes (43%) for arithmetic operators on the right side, and 16 votes (57%) for arithmetic operators on the left side.

These are the same percentages as published above (seems I had some double counts then - beg your pardon). If there should be errors in this evaluation, please tell me.

            
Re: Poll results in detail
Message #74 Posted by Cristian Arezzini on 2 Dec 2012, 11:40 p.m.,
in response to message #73 by Walter B

Walter, when recounting, did you read the messages posted on the board or did you extend the poll? I'm just asking because I see my preference isn't counted (I said on a post that I would prefer them on the right). Not that that would make any difference now...

Cristian

Edit: and it seems Morten's vote above wasn't counted either.

Edited: 2 Dec 2012, 11:42 p.m.

                  
Re: Poll results in detail
Message #75 Posted by Walter B on 3 Dec 2012, 1:21 a.m.,
in response to message #74 by Cristian Arezzini

Yours and Morten's were after the deadline as you knew and wrote. And it's quite normal that only the minority will show up then - the other ones have no reason to do so d:-)

      
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #76 Posted by David Griffith on 3 Dec 2012, 3:29 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Walter B

The poll really should have been for longer than a two days. I and others ducked out for a bit and this happened. There also seemed to be confusion over where the enter key would be and if the keyboard would be landscape or portrait. Let's do this again and run it for one week.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #77 Posted by Walter B on 3 Dec 2012, 3:45 a.m.,
in response to message #76 by David Griffith

We can, of course, repeat that poll. But please look at message #1 first: it was unambiguously stated that we talk about a portrait layout. And the ENTER key was fixed until Tim started moving it which I answered quickly by fixing it again. Who is able to read, read! d:-)

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #78 Posted by David Griffith on 3 Dec 2012, 4:16 p.m.,
in response to message #77 by Walter B

I got the thing about the portrait layout. I was just wondering how other people didn't. What's the business with the Enter key moving around anyhow? I didn't think anyone would here would seriously talk about changing its size, shape, or location.

Edited: 3 Dec 2012, 4:29 p.m.

                        
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #79 Posted by Ethan Conner on 3 Dec 2012, 4:40 p.m.,
in response to message #78 by David Griffith

I wouldn't change the size or shape. Left or right. It's all personal preference. I would like to not have to reach across the keypad.

            
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #80 Posted by Cristian Arezzini on 3 Dec 2012, 3:47 a.m.,
in response to message #76 by David Griffith

I also think the poll should have been clearly "labeled"... Instead of saying "Do you like the operator keys left or right", which sounds like a "idle poll" as we have seen many - you know, "do you prefer RPN or RPL? Do you prefer LED or LCD?" and so on... I think it would have been better to say "Look folks, we're buinding a new calculator, with new hardware and new software. Where do you want us to put the operator keys? The poll will run for 15 days, the deadline being XXX". This way you would have gotten the attention of everyone, and there would have been time for everyone to chime in. And don't forget that many people just don't take part to every single "idle poll", so they might have not participated just because they thought it not necessary... This is just IMO of course, and not even really relevant for me as I fear the final calculator will be too expensive for me...

Cristian

                  
Re: Here is a poll again
Message #81 Posted by Walter B on 3 Dec 2012, 3:59 a.m.,
in response to message #80 by Cristian Arezzini

Those who know us for a while know we use to start polls exactly as we did it here. But be assured the new project is a moving target as the WP 34S was, so there will be more polls to come - and maybe even another one about keys d:-)


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