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HP Forum Archive 21

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HP7B-CL
Message #1 Posted by John W Kercheval on 17 May 2012, 5:24 a.m.

Monte:

We are waiting... the awesome HP71B-CL. Make it happen :)

      
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #2 Posted by Ángel Martin on 17 May 2012, 8:45 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by John W Kercheval

but... does the SATURN CPU needs it????

            
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #3 Posted by John W Kercheval on 17 May 2012, 8:49 a.m.,
in response to message #2 by Ángel Martin

Not necessarily. But a pumped up 71 would be cool.

                  
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #4 Posted by Walter B on 17 May 2012, 9:01 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by John W Kercheval

Then do something for it, John!

                        
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #5 Posted by Olivier De Smet on 17 May 2012, 11:12 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by Walter B

While waiting you can try go71B for android ... - only a x2 speed up, but one day I will perhaps rewrite the core emulation in C, actually it is only pure java ... - but you can have full fledged HP71B with MATH, FORTH roms and loads of memory. - still no HP-IL, but it progress ... slowly, but it progress

Olivier

                              
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #6 Posted by Howard Owen on 17 May 2012, 12:06 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Olivier De Smet

Hmm. Since the PIL-BOX + ILper will extend a loop over TCP/IP, you could connect your Android emulator to real hardware.

                                    
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #7 Posted by Olivier De Smet on 17 May 2012, 12:10 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Howard Owen

I know, I just need to buy one PIL box :) First I will try with tcp/ip and/or udp from the android device to a pc.

(I have now a 71B with HPIL, but without math rom and ram modules ..)

Olivier

                                          
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #8 Posted by Howard Owen on 17 May 2012, 12:22 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Olivier De Smet

Quote:

(I have now a 71B with HPIL, but without math rom and ram modules ..)

Progress! :)

      
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #9 Posted by Monte Dalrymple on 17 May 2012, 4:56 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by John W Kercheval

I don't know about a replacement PC board, but I actually have thought that doing a clone of the Saturn CPU would be fun.

We'll see...

            
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #10 Posted by Bart (UK) on 18 May 2012, 6:17 a.m.,
in response to message #9 by Monte Dalrymple

How about a 1LQ4 clone, which (apparently) would make it easier to add RAM to the 71B?

                  
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #11 Posted by Hans Brueggemann on 18 May 2012, 7:14 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Bart (UK)

well,... you may want to look here.
hans

                        
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #12 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 18 May 2012, 10:25 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Hans Brueggemann

Hello,

which part number do the HIROSE Sim card connectors on your pic have, and where can I order these as a private person?

Thanks

Ray

Edit: Typo

Edited: 18 May 2012, 10:25 p.m.

                              
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #13 Posted by Hans Brueggemann on 19 May 2012, 6:24 a.m.,
in response to message #12 by Raymond Del Tondo

hi raymond,
sorry for sending you into the wrong direction. it's not a HIROSE. it's actually a JAE SF2W006S4KE3000 sim card connector. mouser has them.
bear in mind that the connectors have to be cut in half, and only one of the halves can be used. these halves have to be filed off a little bit on both sides in order to make them fit side-by-side on the keyboard pcb.
hope that helps!
hans
(picture updated accordingly)

Edited: 19 May 2012, 6:38 a.m.

                                    
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #14 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 19 May 2012, 9:21 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Hans Brueggemann

Hi Hans,

yes that helps a lot. Many thanks for the update:-)

I was looking for such a solution for a long time.
Initially I wanted to use spring pins, but those spring pins are relatively expensive.
Your solution looks much better, especially from the price-per-pin view;-)
The JAE sim card connectors cost ~55 Eurocent per piece when ordering 25 pieces,
and each piece consists of 6 spring lever contacts, of which 3 are fit our needs.

Since the shipping cost from Mouser to here is 20 Euro in any case,
I'll look for some additional stuff I moight order from them.

Regards

Ray

                                          
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #15 Posted by Juergen Keller on 20 May 2012, 4:40 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Raymond Del Tondo

Quote:
Since the shipping cost from Mouser to here is 20 Euro in any case, I'll look for some additional stuff I moight order from them.
I'm interested, too. Perhaps we can arrange for a joint order?
                        
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #16 Posted by Garth Wilson on 19 May 2012, 2:32 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Hans Brueggemann

Super! Will you be offering it for sale, and if so, how much do you anticipate charging for one? Is it all RAM, and does it act like true RAM with random immediate access for writing, unlike flash? Any more details?

                              
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #17 Posted by Paul Dale on 19 May 2012, 2:36 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Garth Wilson

It is FRAM which is a kind of non-volatile RAM. Zero power standby and no data loss, no significant extra power and very fast to write to unlike flash memory.

I want one too :)

- Pauli

Edited: 19 May 2012, 2:38 a.m.

                              
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #18 Posted by james summers on 19 May 2012, 2:39 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Garth Wilson

Ooh, me too! Sounds very interesting! Yet another item on my list of things to get!

                        
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #19 Posted by Bart (UK) on 19 May 2012, 7:27 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Hans Brueggemann

Wow, that is great. The obvious questions: when can we get it & how much? I think you will have a lot of interest for this.

            
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #20 Posted by John W Kercheval on 18 May 2012, 2:44 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Monte Dalrymple

Monte: You are a Demi-God

                  
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #21 Posted by Monte Dalrymple on 18 May 2012, 7:26 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by John W Kercheval

Nope, just an engineer.

      
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #22 Posted by Frido Bohn on 18 May 2012, 4:12 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by John W Kercheval

Quote:
...the awesome HP71B-CL.

HP71B-CL? What is this?

We know what "L" is, but for what stands the "C" in connection with the 71B?
I guess this is a sort of brand-name mix-up misconception. I'd rather suggest 71BL instead.

Do we need the 50x speed? Let's be honest, if we want to run software fast we would rely on an Intel based system today.
The speed surplus is a nice feature for the HP-41 system. But the main reason to purchase a 41CL is to have all the ROMs so close at hands.

The HP-71B had seven ROM modules originating from HP, according to the HP Museum's DVD:
HP-71B Circuit Analysis Pac (HP 82481A)
HP-71B Curve Fitting Pac (HP 82484A)
HP-71B Data Acquisition Pac (HP 82479A)
HP-71B Finance Pac (HP 82482A)
HP-71B Forth/Assembler ROM (HP 82441A)
HP-71B Math Module (HP 82480A)
HP-71B Surveying Pac (HP 82483)

I don't know whether there were some custom modules for the 71B. Anyway, there would not be much software to pack a 71BL board with as it's the case for the HP-41C with its cornucopia of programs.
I would prefer a custom module à la Clonix or Nov64 for the 71B. Diego?

            
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #23 Posted by Garth Wilson on 18 May 2012, 4:58 a.m.,
in response to message #22 by Frido Bohn

Quote:
Do we need the 50x speed? Let's be honest, if we want to run software fast we would rely on an Intel based system today.
Ah, but it wouldn't have HPIL, or be as easy to program, or be as stable or as well documented, and it wouldn't last 30+ years. One of the things I have against the modern computer electronics, especially hand-held, is that it only lasts a couple of years. I have had programs in my 41 and 71 for decades without re-loading.

Quote:
The speed surplus is a nice feature for the HP-41 system. But the main reason to purchase a 41CL is to have all the ROMs so close at hands.
I wouldn't mind having my 71's memory map filled out with RAM, somewhere around 340KB total RAM to add to my ROM, bringing the total to 512KB. The 71's speed was not much of an issue for me as it was so much faster than the 41, but if it were yet another 10 or more times as fast, it would open up more possibilities of what I could do with it. And, if a serial port could be added, so much the better.

Quote:
The HP-71B had seven ROM modules originating from HP, according to the HP Museum's DVD:
HP-71B Circuit Analysis Pac (HP 82481A)
HP-71B Curve Fitting Pac (HP 82484A)
HP-71B Data Acquisition Pac (HP 82479A)
HP-71B Finance Pac (HP 82482A)
HP-71B Forth/Assembler ROM (HP 82441A)
HP-71B Math Module (HP 82480A)
HP-71B Surveying Pac (HP 82483)

I don't know whether there were some custom modules for the 71B.

One I remember (which I never got) was the Paname ROM, if I remember the name correctly. It had things like the CASE statement and multi-line structures. There were gobs and gobs of great LEX files from the Paris users' group, but I have a lot of them in RAM, so I don't necessarily need them in ROM.

The Forth-79 in that Forth ROM was terrible. There was room for a ton of improvement there. I re-wrote many of the words as secondaries (not even as primitives), and got substitutes that ran as much as 14 times as fast as what was built into the module! How much faster yet could they be if I learned the assembly language and re-wrote them as primitives?! It's where I learned Forth though, so even though it was a lousy one, I'm glad that a friend talked me into it.

How about some better time functions? I wrote programs to do the things the 41cx TIME functions had built in. The 71 could do them but not without user-written programs.

                  
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #24 Posted by Frido Bohn on 18 May 2012, 5:18 a.m.,
in response to message #23 by Garth Wilson

Quote:
I wouldn't mind having my 71's memory map filled out with RAM, somewhere around 340KB total RAM to add to my ROM, bringing the total to 512KB.
Wouldn't this be feasible through a user-made ROM like Diego Diaz' modules for the HP-41
instead of wasting efforts for a new board?
                        
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #25 Posted by Garth Wilson on 18 May 2012, 5:28 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Frido Bohn

Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't mind having my 71's memory map filled out with RAM, somewhere around 340KB total RAM to add to my ROM, bringing the total to 512KB.
Wouldn't this be feasible through a user-made ROM like Diego Diaz' modules for the HP-41 instead of wasting efforts for a new board?
It wouldn't do anything about the speed, but sure, I would be interested in such a module. It's utterly ridiculous that you-know-who is asking hundreds of dollars for HP 4KB RAM modules. I can see the new module now-- if freeported, :PORT(4.00), (4.01), (4.02), (4.03), (4.04), (4.05), (4.06), (4.07)... with 32KB each. Actually, I suppose it would have to be configured, so you could get the maximum amount your machine has room for without going over the 512KB limit. I don't think there's any need for banking schemes, although a flash module with a few megabytes of mass storage wouldn't be bad.
                  
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #26 Posted by Howard Owen on 18 May 2012, 5:55 a.m.,
in response to message #23 by Garth Wilson

You may be thinking of the JPC ROM. That page is a great resource for HP-71B Saturn assembly generally. The latest JPC-ROM version and the source code are two more contributions to the community by JF Garnier.

                        
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #27 Posted by John W Kercheval on 18 May 2012, 7:49 a.m.,
in response to message #26 by Howard Owen

NOT JUST SPEED HERE!

Luxury accoutrements would be added too as options.. a zebra wood fascia, leather, new badging HP71B-CL, specialized paint jobs for the case like fire engine red instead of brown.

The discriminating user could pick & choose from a menu of options. The cost would be high but h user would then have a higher performance machine customized to his own personal tastes.

Exclusivity, at the handheld level.

            
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #28 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 18 May 2012, 5:50 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Frido Bohn

Quote:
The HP-71B had seven ROM modules originating from HP, according to the HP Museum's DVD:
HP-71B Circuit Analysis Pac (HP 82481A)
HP-71B Curve Fitting Pac (HP 82484A)
HP-71B Data Acquisition Pac (HP 82479A)
HP-71B Finance Pac (HP 82482A)
HP-71B Forth/Assembler ROM (HP 82441A)
HP-71B Math Module (HP 82480A)
HP-71B Surveying Pac (HP 82483)

You're missing this one: 

         HP-41 Translator Pac for the HP-71 (HP 82490A)
it's manual is also included on the DVD.

Regards from V.
                  
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #29 Posted by Christoph Giesselink on 21 May 2012, 2:28 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Valentin Albillo

The HP71 ROM module list with ROM modules distributed by HP only

Quote:
HP-71B Forth/Assembler ROM  (HP 82441A)
HP-71B Data Acquisition Pac (HP 82479A)
HP-71B Math Module          (HP 82480A)
HP-71B Circuit Analysis Pac (HP 82481A)
HP-71B Finance Pac          (HP 82482A)
HP-71B Surveying Pac        (HP 82483A)
HP-71B Curve Fitting Pac    (HP 82484A)

is still incomplete even if you add the

Quote:
HP-41 Translator Pac for the HP-71 (HP 82490A)

to the list.

The HP Museum DVD's mention an additional manual

  • HP 82485A HP-71 Text Editor Owner's Manual

Further I know

  • HP 82488A Data Communications Pac
  • HP 82489A AMPI Statistics Pac

Here's a number cross reference list with hopefully all modules I made a while ago.

Number cross reference list

HP 82441A			HP-71 FORTH ASSEMBLER (without Debugger)
HP 82478A	5061-7234	HP-71 FORTH ASSEMBLER
HP 82479A	5061-7290	DATA ACQ
HP 82480A	5061-7226	HP-71 MATH
HP 82481A	5061-7237	AC CIRCUIT
HP 82482A	5061-7239	FINANCE
HP 82483A	5061-7238	SURVEYING
HP 82484A	5061-7241	CURVE FIT
HP 82485A	5061-7240	TEXT EDITOR
HP 82488A	5061-7271	DATA COMM
HP 82489A	5061-7270	AMPI STATISTICS
HP 82490A	5061-7269	HP-71 41 TRANSLATOR

Christoph

            
Re: HP7B-CL
Message #30 Posted by Diego Diaz on 19 May 2012, 1:29 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Frido Bohn

Hi Frido, all,

Although I actually began working on such a "Clonix-71" project (for the front ports) a couple of years ago, I didn't success in doing the prototype work as expected.

Main reason for the fail was the big differences in power management between 41C and 71B, which causes the microcontroller to be running at least half of the time (even while the 71 is OFF), this is unpractical in terms of battery drain.

On the other hand, as it has already been pointed out in this thread, the HP-71B has an extremely short list of ROM modules, and there are several devices (mostly for the card reader port) that allow EPROM's to be used. Furthermore, cases for such modules will be at least ten times more difficult to obtain than those for the HP-41... :-(

Then it comes Hans' FRAM71 project, which uses RAMTRON's non volatile memory paralell type quite like the NoV's use the serial type, therefore it can be considered quasi-ROM.

In my opinion this is "the way" to go, and will also join the waiting list for one of these FRAM71 modules when the first production run arrives... :-)

Enjoy your HP's!

Diego.

Edited: typos.

Edited: 19 May 2012, 2:33 p.m.

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