HP Forum Archive 20

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Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #1 Posted by gene wright on 20 Feb 2012, 2:17 p.m.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #2 Posted by Paulo MO on 20 Feb 2012, 3:37 p.m., in response to message #1 by gene wright A firmware updated 15c+ as a regular, permanent, stock item? That would be nice. But maybe we should call it 15c*, because you know what they say: "when you wish upon a star..." ( and I never heard the version "when you wish upon a plus...") :-) Paulo Edited: 20 Feb 2012, 3:50 p.m.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #3 Posted by Richard J. Nelson on 20 Feb 2012, 5:09 p.m., in response to message #2 by Paulo MO All four machines shown use the same ROMs. Is it 15C or 15c? I once asked Sam Kim the general question regarding HP Calculator model numbers. The answer, he said, was that which is on the calculator, i.e. it is an HP-15C. The marketing types will want the "new" generation machine to be lower case C" but they are dealing with a legacy machine so they are "torn" between the old and the new. In the end I use whatever is printed on the calculator. There is one exception, however. It is the model number used most often. Does anyone remember this model (hint: it is a "recent" small machine)? X < > Y, Richard

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #4 Posted by Jan on 20 Feb 2012, 7:38 p.m., in response to message #3 by Richard J. Nelson The marketing types will want the "new" generation machine to be lower case C" but they are dealing with a legacy machine so they are "torn" between the old and the new. Marketing guys usually have no clue. If it had been up to them there would have been no HP-35 at all (and probably no HP-45, HP-55....). The capital C stands for 100 in roman numerals, which is about the relative increase in speed of the new 15C's compared to the old ones. For me it should therefore be a capital C (still) much like the V and X represented the the memory-increase (in roman numerals) of the 41CV and 41CX models compared to the 41C.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #5 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 20 Feb 2012, 4:26 p.m., in response to message #1 by gene wright What's a 15c+ again? Some prototype?

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #6 Posted by Eric Smith on 20 Feb 2012, 7:19 p.m., in response to message #5 by Alexander Oestert Yes. A very limited number were made, and some were given out at a conference. The hardware is basically the same as the new 12C.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #7 Posted by robert rozee on 21 Feb 2012, 11:08 p.m., in response to message #6 by Eric Smith a question that has probably been asked before... does there exist a 15c+ with firmware such that: - it does not exhibit the PSE bug - the battery low indicator works - it has no other major 'flaws'?

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #8 Posted by Katie Wasserman on 21 Feb 2012, 11:46 p.m., in response to message #7 by robert rozee I don't have a 15C+ but this question has come up here before, and I've been paying close attention. While there are older versions of the ARM-based 15C firmware none of them have the battery indicator working correctly nor are they otherwise bug-free. The 12C+ also does not have the battery indication working. OTOH, Jeff did some extensive battery testing on the 15C LE and found that battery life was much better than one would expect given the 20ma load, when he used very high quality cells. Still the low battery indicator did not work at all (?) when the cells were finally exhausted.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #9 Posted by Geoff Quickfall on 22 Feb 2012, 2:20 a.m., in response to message #7 by robert rozee Unfortunately my 15c+ as with other beta testers was updated with each new version. As a result there may not be many with the original firmware. I do remember there were only about 125 lines of program memory and many bugs in the original. Also line number access was problematical to say the least. Cheers, Geoff

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #10 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 22 Feb 2012, 3:40 a.m., in response to message #7 by robert rozee Could the experts elaborate on the question if it would be possible to port the DM-15CC's firmware to the HP 15C LE hardware as it seems to be bug free? Or the code that go15c for Android is based on which also has no apparent bugs.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #11 Posted by Paul Dale on 22 Feb 2012, 3:43 a.m., in response to message #10 by Alexander Oestert I'd start with an older version of Nonpareil and port that to the 15C LE. - Pauli

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #12 Posted by uhmgawa on 22 Feb 2012, 11:32 a.m., in response to message #10 by Alexander Oestert Quote: Could the experts elaborate on the question if it would be possible to port the DM-15CC's firmware to the HP 15C LE hardware as it seems to be bug free? Or the code that go15c for Android is based on which also has no apparent bugs. Several folks have asked for a KEMU port to the sam7 voyager. KEMU sidesteps all of the known problems with the current sam7 15c le firmware and additionally supports full NUT/voyager emulation including system/keypad self test, synthetic programming via y^x rotate-22, command line interface, multiple voyager family models, even the NUT ptr==13 CPU errata. It is fairly configurable and currently is optimized for size: bundled with a 15c firmware image it is well under 32K on an AVR core SoC and I'd expect substantially less for an ARM footprint. Even with all voyager images of (11c/12c/15c/16c), graphic support, and assorted bells & whistles as demonstrated in the Graphic Voyager Prototype, image size is under 64KB. Requiring support for only the sam7 voyager's segment display, image size reduces further and usage would be essentially the same the KINOMI/KEMU voyager. The point here being over half of the sam7's 128KB flash would be available for further optimization, functional customization, or user persistent storage. The hold up thus far has been over logistics rather than technical issues, concerning how a prospective user deals with obtaining voyager firmware. The images I've been using have been captured from voyagers I own rather than elsewhere. Ideally I'll be able to reach some understanding with HP to allow bundling these images with a KEMU release but we're not there yet. The alternative of finding images elsewhere is certainly possible and that may be a fall-back if bundling isn't an option. But it is unwelcome end user clunkiness best avoided.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #13 Posted by Ingo Paschke on 23 Feb 2012, 5:47 a.m., in response to message #12 by uhmgawa Quote: The hold up thus far has been over logistics rather than technical issues, concerning how a prospective user deals with obtaining voyager firmware. The images I've been using have been captured from voyagers I own rather than elsewhere. Ideally I'll be able to reach some understanding with HP to allow bundling these images with a KEMU release but we're not there yet. The alternative of finding images elsewhere is certainly possible and that may be a fall-back if bundling isn't an option. But it is unwelcome end user clunkiness best avoided. An alternative firmware would be really great, this could make the 15LE the ultimate version of the 15C. Regarding clunkiness: It's already clunky enough to obtain the cable and flash the firmware with (my)samba, so the step of obtaining the 15C firmware and combining it with the emulator should be no real obstacle. If checksums and headers are all at the start of the file, couldn't it even be as simple as concatenating the two files?

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #14 Posted by uhmgawa on 23 Feb 2012, 7:35 p.m., in response to message #13 by Ingo Paschke Quote: An alternative firmware would be really great, this could make the 15LE the ultimate version of the 15C. The ultimate version of a 15c starts with a board swap of a 24xx <= S/N < 28xx 15c chassis with a suitable ARM core, reusing the enclosure along with the superior key caps and segment LCD found in the legacy voyager. The logical conclusion would be somewhere in the ballpark of a matrix display and external i/o + power. Quote: Regarding clunkiness: ... If checksums and headers are all at the start of the file, couldn't it even be as simple as concatenating the two files? It certainly could be made as simple for the case of a single 15c voyager model firmware. However for the general case of multiple images metadata is needed to describe each image to KEMU. Unless some sort of additional tool was created to obviate a rebuild, having a gcc toolchain available would be required. The anticipated "clunkiness" was of dealing with this vs. having prebuilt binary images available in a prospective KEMU release.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #15 Posted by Ingo Paschke on 24 Feb 2012, 4:18 a.m., in response to message #14 by uhmgawa Quote: It certainly could be made as simple for the case of a single 15c voyager model firmware. While the ability to switch the firmware is really neat and impressive, it wouldn't be of much use (at least to me), because I wouldn't know how to use a 12c or even a 16c with the 15c's keycaps. Edited: 24 Feb 2012, 4:19 a.m.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #16 Posted by Katie Wasserman on 23 Feb 2012, 11:37 a.m., in response to message #12 by uhmgawa Quote: The images I've been using have been captured from voyagers I own rather than elsewhere. Ideally I'll be able to reach some understanding with HP to allow bundling these images with a KEMU release but we're not there yet. In another recent thread the nonexistent copyright of this firmware was mentioned as it has been several times before. Given that, what is there to discuss with HP, just having some agreement that they won't bother you with frivolous lawsuits?

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #17 Posted by uhmgawa on 23 Feb 2012, 7:39 p.m., in response to message #16 by Katie Wasserman Quote: In another recent thread the nonexistent copyright of this firmware was mentioned as it has been several times before. Nothing in that thread nor associated research constitutes concrete legal advice -- at least not to my comfort level. Quote: Given that, what is there to discuss with HP, just having some agreement that they won't bother you with frivolous lawsuits? Let it suffice to say my reading of the tea leaves suggests HP isn't at all pleased with an external attempt to commercialize their firmware and tread on their brand image. Doing nothing may also be construed as abandonment of any copyright/infringement claim, although I'll leave that for greater legal minds to debate. In any case I thought it reasonable to first see where such an upfront discussion may lead before considering alternatives. On perhaps a personal note, what I'd developed wouldn't have existed if HP didn't release engineering specifications for their NUT silicon. I'd prefer not to be a potential source of regret for that decision.

Re: Richard Nelson's pictures of the 4 HP 15c versions Message #18 Posted by robert rozee on 25 Feb 2012, 7:34 a.m., in response to message #17 by uhmgawa how about someone produce the firmware image, complete, and release it anonymously into the wild to fly "like an eagle on the winds"? there might be no glory to be had, but there would be a great many very happy 15C LE owners out there!! call it 'doing a public good'...

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