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[HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #1 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 29 Nov 2011, 9:55 a.m.

Anyone wanting to make a prophecy on when the HP 15C LE bug fix firmware will be available? Is there a list to be notified by HP as soon as it comes out?

I would love to be able to use my new and shiny 15C without the PSE bug! Really! ;-)

      
(deleted post)
Message #2 Posted by deleted on 29 Nov 2011, 9:56 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted. If all followups have been removed, the original poster may delete this post again to make this placeholder disappear.

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #3 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 29 Nov 2011, 10:15 a.m.,
in response to message #2 by deleted

I would appreciate just a serious answer. I don't really find it that funny.

Is there a notification list at HP I can subscribe to?

Thanks in advance.

Honestly, had I not bought those two things in the US, being in Europe, I would have already send them back.

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 10:17 a.m.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #4 Posted by M. Joury on 29 Nov 2011, 10:34 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by Alexander Oestert

I may be reading too much into what Tim posted but I think that you got at least one answer. Based on what Tim said (and again this may be wishful thinking and reading too much into a joking comment) I now believe that we will at least get a bug fix at some point.

Cheers,

-Marwan

                        
(deleted post)
Message #5 Posted by deleted on 29 Nov 2011, 10:39 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by M. Joury

This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted. If all followups have been removed, the original poster may delete this post again to make this placeholder disappear.

                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #6 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 29 Nov 2011, 10:54 a.m.,
in response to message #5 by deleted

Quote:
I now believe that we will at least get a bug fix at some point.

Quote:
You are reading too much.


Meaning we will never see a bug fix.

HP just lost me as a potential future customer. This is bad.

                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #7 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 29 Nov 2011, 11:00 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Alexander Oestert

Quote:

Meaning we will never see a bug fix.


Nah, you'll eventually see a bug fix, only perhaps not from HP.

Quote:
HP just lost me as a potential future customer. This is bad.

That's overreacting. If I'd refrained from buying from some company or other on the grounds of a simple disappointment I wouldn't be buying much, if at all.

Best regards from V.

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #8 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 29 Nov 2011, 11:09 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by Valentin Albillo

Quote:

That's overreacting.


Yeah, for a product marketed as 'Limited Edition' in a fake leather case that is entirely a pure luxury item, for 100 bucks I'm probably expecting too much. What was I thinking...

HP even gave us a nicely printed "Advanced Functions Handbook"...wait..where did I get that one?

                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #9 Posted by Tim Wessman on 29 Nov 2011, 11:33 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Alexander Oestert

>Meaning we will never see a bug fix.

Meaning nothing.

Seems like quite a stretch to reach that conclusion from my comment. I suppose the best thing to do is go away and completely not participate in this forum as everything I say gets taken way out of context. Whether there is or is not ever going to be a fix would never be communicated on a forum like this. Modern large companies just don't do that.

If you have displeasure with something HP has or has not done, you need to let them know through the proper channels. I am not an HP employee when I discuss and post here.

TW

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 11:39 a.m.

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #10 Posted by Bruce Bergman on 29 Nov 2011, 11:43 a.m.,
in response to message #9 by Tim Wessman

Yeah, this was a total overreaction by others.

Folks, this is NOT a support forum hosted by HP! The museum forums are something completely outside of the HP domain, and shouldn't be construed as part of HP's official (or even unofficial) stance on anything.

If all you're trying to do is drive away GENEROUS and CARING employees from HP who participate here, then keep it up and I'm quite sure they'll leave.

If you want "official" HP responses, go visit their web site or call their Tech Support. I'm betting that you'd be happier with the unofficial responses you get here, than those "official" responses at the other locations.

Or, you can be content with what's here, and realize (whether you believe it or not) that this is a community of interesting and caring individuals, who just want to make things better for all HP users.

Please don't ruin it for the rest of us. If you're pissed at HP and don't want to be a customer, then fine, go away. But don't poke the eye out of those people from within HP who just happen to enjoy HP products and help WHERE THEY CAN.

My $0.02 anyhow. And no, I'm not overreacting. ;-)

Thanks,

Bruce

                                                
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #11 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 29 Nov 2011, 12:12 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Bruce Bergman

Some points to keep in mind:

1. Tim has stated several times he participates as an individual, not an HP employee.
2. Despite the above, all regulars here still are aware he is an HP employee, and not only that, but the 15c LE was his project.
3. Because of (2), It's only natural that some folks are going to assume that his comments might mean something.
4. In fact, Tim has on occasion given out some real HP information, as when he published photos of the 15c LE and 12c 30th packaging.
5. The forum is a free-form venue, and if a known HP employee makes glib comments, some are bound to be offended, given how seriously some folks are about HP's products.

And that's my $.02.

                                                      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #12 Posted by Tim Wessman on 29 Nov 2011, 12:26 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Martin Pinckney

Good points. Which is why I am just going to avoid participating except for very rare occasions. Makes things simpler all around.

TW

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #13 Posted by M. Joury on 29 Nov 2011, 12:53 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Tim Wessman

Sorry I said anything. I certainly didn't mean for this thread to take the direction it did. I am most assuredly not one of those that is unhappy with HP. In fact I am very happy with the 15C LE and will certainly be buying HP calculator products in the future.

I guess I read too much into what you said earlier and should probably have just kept my thoughts to myself.

Cheers,

-Marwan

                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #14 Posted by Tim Wessman on 29 Nov 2011, 12:59 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by M. Joury

No, definitely not your fault. Mine for saying something that would be misinterpreted. It is just simpler this way.

TW

                                                                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #15 Posted by Howard Owen on 29 Nov 2011, 5:01 p.m.,
in response to message #14 by Tim Wessman

By "simpler" you mean that a reengineered follow on to the 42S is imminent?

:)

                                                                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #16 Posted by Egan Ford on 29 Nov 2011, 5:26 p.m.,
in response to message #15 by Howard Owen

Quote:
By "simpler" you mean that a reengineered follow on to the 42S is imminent?
You missunderstood. "Simpler" means integer. He was clearly talking about the 16C LE. :-)

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 5:26 p.m.

                                                                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #17 Posted by Paul Dale on 29 Nov 2011, 5:44 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Egan Ford

No no no. Simpler means older generation. We're going to have the 41 series back ;-)

- Pauli

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #18 Posted by Neil Hamilton (Ottawa) on 29 Nov 2011, 12:59 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Tim Wessman

Well that would be a shame if you were driven away. I, for one, appreciate and enjoy your refreshing sense of humour. The occasional nugget of "inside" information (even if its cryptic) is just a bonus.

The thought "sheesh, chill already!" was going through my mind reading some of this trail...

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #19 Posted by Jeff O. on 30 Nov 2011, 12:54 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Tim Wessman

Quote:
If you have displeasure with something HP has or has not done, you need to let them know through the proper channels.

Tim,
I'm not sure what the best "proper channel" would be, so I just sent a message to HP Scientific Calculator Support. I described the issues and told them that I was certain that you and Cyrille could easily fix the problems, if directed to do so.

If that does not work, I guess I will have to try to contact Ms. Whitman.

                                                
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #20 Posted by Walter B on 30 Nov 2011, 1:46 p.m.,
in response to message #19 by Jeff O.

:-D Good luck!

                                                      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #21 Posted by Jeff O. on 30 Nov 2011, 3:46 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Walter B

Hey, I already got a reply back stating that "One of our Technical Support Specialists will be responding to your inquiry. It is our pleasure to be of service to you..."

Or were you referring to a potential future attempt to contact Ms. Whitman? I don't really think that would be possible, but beside Tim and Cyrille, I don't know how or who else I might try to contact to officially request a new 15c rom. It’s not like there is a phone or e-mail directory of the company available so that I might try to contact someone in the calculator division who has the power to get the problems solved.

                                                
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #22 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 1 Dec 2011, 11:38 a.m.,
in response to message #19 by Jeff O.

Quote:
I described the issues and told them that I was certain that you and Cyrille could easily fix the problems, if directed to do so.
We should all do so, maybe even using the same text.

Would you mind sharing it with us?

                                                      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #23 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 1 Dec 2011, 12:08 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Thomas Radtke

I second that: same text to the same email address.

                                                      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #24 Posted by Jeff O. on 1 Dec 2011, 12:35 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Thomas Radtke

Here is the text of the message:

Quote:
This in reference to the new HP 15c scientific calculator. The firmware for the new calculator has several bugs as follows:
1) PSE used more than once in a program blanks the display after the first occurrence. The display blanks out until the program finishes, subsequent PSE instructions do not properly display the interim results.
2) the display will flash inappropriately in a number of circumstances, for example, running Cy,x or Py,x three times in a program, or in complex mode, press f - (i) to temporarily display the imaginary component. While the temporary display is up, press a single digit key, as if you were starting to key in a number. As soon as the temporary display of the imaginary component goes away, the digit you pressed will be displayed, and the display will be flashing.
3) executing the ON plus x self-test described in the manual which came with the calculator corrupts program memory. This key combination, as well as the other key combinations which execute the self-tests of the original 15C should either be disabled or made to work as they did originally.
4) Current draw is over 20mA when holding down a key, which will lead to rapid battery depletion.
5) Current draw is also over 20 mA during program execution. While the high speed that such current draw allows is appreciated, this is actually well in excess of the capability of the CR2032 cells used to power the calculator. It might be advisable to implement a power management scheme which would allow high speed operation some of the time, but throttle back the speed under certain circumstances, for example after the first few seconds of a running program, or when battery voltage drops to a certain level.
6) The low battery indicator does not appear to work, i.e., it never indicates a low-battery condition regardless of battery voltage. More seriously, when the battery voltage gets low enough or the batteries can't supply enough current, memory is lost. Graceful low-battery detection and shut-down should be implemented in association with the power vs. speed management discussed in item 5 above.
All in all, the new 15c is a wonderful, much appreciated device. It would make a nice Christmas present to the HP calculator enthusiast community if HP could create a new rom file and make it available in the near future.
Thank you for your support.

Thanks and credit given to Katie Wasserman, I took much of the above from her HP-15C LE (Limted Edition) Bug Reports article.

I sent the above to HP via this contact form.

I did receive a follow-up reply:

Quote:
Thank you for contacting Hewlett-Packard.

This is in response to your e-mail regarding the HP 15c Scientific Calculator.

Thank you for your feedback. I will pass this message along.

Sincerely,

HP Email Support


HP 15c bug list article.

Edited: 10 Dec 2011, 12:54 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #25 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 1 Dec 2011, 1:03 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Jeff O.

Thanks!

Did it, and hopefully the majority of listening 15c LE users will do so also.

                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #26 Posted by Lincoln R. on 1 Dec 2011, 1:27 p.m.,
in response to message #25 by Thomas Radtke

Yes. This is a great idea. Posting here probably isn't the right way to get results, but if enough people complain through official channels that may make HP decide that fixing the bugs is a worthwhile endeavor.

                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #27 Posted by Jeff O. on 1 Dec 2011, 3:47 p.m.,
in response to message #25 by Thomas Radtke

Do we need a new separate "Pester HP for a new 15c rom" thread to encourage and track the campaign?

                                                                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #28 Posted by Katie Wasserman on 1 Dec 2011, 5:25 p.m.,
in response to message #27 by Jeff O.

How about "re-purposing" Bring Back the HP-15C into a Fix the HP 15C LE petition.

                                                                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #29 Posted by Walter B on 1 Dec 2011, 5:46 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Katie Wasserman

If it will take as long as the old petition to succeed ...

                                                                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #30 Posted by Reth on 2 Dec 2011, 4:31 a.m.,
in response to message #28 by Katie Wasserman

Brilliant!

                                                                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #31 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 2 Dec 2011, 1:11 a.m.,
in response to message #27 by Jeff O.

It wouldn't hurt. I'd call it 'Kindly pointing HP to the right direction', however ;-).

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #32 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 2 Dec 2011, 3:50 a.m.,
in response to message #24 by Jeff O.

Did it!

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #33 Posted by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA) on 2 Dec 2011, 2:42 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Jeff O.

This is the response I received from HP customer service for the bug fix request above.

Quote:
Thank you for contacting Hewlett-Packard.

This is in response to your e-mail regarding the HP 15c Scientific Calculator.

Hi,

I just received 3 letters with identical wording from other people and one additional one just like this one, is this a form letter?

We are aware of the PSE issue and have it on our fix list but I do not have an ETA. I will forward your information on the other issues but to document it you would need to phone us between 9 am and 9 pm eastern at 1800 474 6836 and troubleshoot the issues with us, and we could escalate the case if necessary.

Thanks,

Saleh

Sincerely, HP Email Support


                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #34 Posted by Ethan Conner on 2 Dec 2011, 3:31 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

Imagine that.....they were already aware of the problem. So before Tim was driven away from the forum he notified HP of the problem. Of course some people have nothing better to do than beat a dead horse.

                                                                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #35 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 3 Dec 2011, 5:07 a.m.,
in response to message #34 by Ethan Conner

Quote:
Tim was driven away from the forum

Insinuating Tim was "driven away" for what was written in this thread means accusing him of a rather childish behavior. If anything, he was directed by his superiors to not participate anymore.

                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #36 Posted by Jeff O. on 2 Dec 2011, 4:14 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

I guess it is good that it is on their fix list, and that they even have a fix list.

Are you going to respond and tell Saleh that it is not so much a form letter as an effort by concerned users that the message get through? How about calling and troubleshooting to get the problems escalated?

                                                                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #37 Posted by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA) on 2 Dec 2011, 4:55 p.m.,
in response to message #36 by Jeff O.

I already send a follow up message to Saleh in the same regard, also letting him know that I and many others do appreciate HP and the HP Calculator product development team for bringing back the HP-15C.

When I can put a side 30-45 minutes from work, I will call the customer service and try to walk them through on reproducing the issues we have seen regularly. Also I will recommend that they would expedite a solution for these issues.

More people e-mail them expressing their concern and call them to demonstrate the issues to get in the fix list; perhaps customer service would have enough data points to justify to the management for requesting an expedited solution.

Edited: 2 Dec 2011, 5:15 p.m.

                                                                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #38 Posted by Jeff O. on 5 Dec 2011, 8:12 a.m.,
in response to message #37 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

Quote:
HP Support -
“We are aware of the PSE issue and have it on our fix list but I do not have an ETA. I will forward your information on the other issues but to document it you would need to phone us between 9 am and 9 pm eastern at 1800 474 6836 and troubleshoot the issues with us, and we could escalate the case if necessary.”

Quote:
Kerem Kaplin -
“When I can put a side 30-45 minutes from work, I will call the customer service and try to walk them through on reproducing the issues we have seen regularly. Also I will recommend that they would expedite a solution for these issues.”

I hope you find time to call and get the problems escalated. They already know about the PSE bug, and it should be easy to walk them through some flashing display examples and also show them how the ON / x self test corrupts memory. Unfortunately, it won't be possible to walk them through the power management issues, which are arguably the most serious. But of course the people who can fix the problems are already well aware of them, so hopefully the escalation process is just a formality to inform HP of the problems through proper channels.

Edited: 10 Dec 2011, 12:57 p.m.

                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #39 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 2 Dec 2011, 4:32 p.m.,
in response to message #33 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

Excellent, thanks for reporting. Calling him might be a good idea, especially to again point out that *distributing* the fix is as important as the fix itself to the existing customer base.

Some more mails might be helpfull also.

      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #40 Posted by Bart (UK) on 29 Nov 2011, 12:06 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

Prerequisite: they'd actually have to start shipping units again.

      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #41 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 29 Nov 2011, 12:20 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

Quote:
Anyone wanting to make a prophecy on when the HP 15C LE bug fix firmware will be available?
Never. If it were of any importance to HP, they would have fixed it along with the keyboard problem. Reports have shown that HP didn't do that.

Dream on, Alexander. I did so when the 35s came out, and I did it for quite a long time.

(unfortunately, I didn't catch the removed messages)

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #42 Posted by Lincoln R. on 29 Nov 2011, 5:37 p.m.,
in response to message #41 by Thomas Radtke

The keyboard problem seems like it was probably trivial to fix, since certain forum members disassembled units and discovered foreign matter inside keyswitches and/or bad heatstaking. That's a simple matter of getting the manufacturing plant to be more careful. A software bug requires man-hours to trace the source of the bug, find a fix, and then do a lot of testing to make sure it didn't break more stuff (Like the fixes that led to this PSE bug in the first place). I'd imagine HP is working on a fix, but wants to make sure it is properly tested before sending it out because people will complain even louder if a PSE fix that results in math functions giving wrong answers or insanely bad battery life is released.

Anyhow, they replaced the units with bad keyboards on essentially a no-questions-asked basis. Making more units and then FedExing them to people wasn't cheap, so they obviously *do* care about this product. It would be easy to just say "some variation in keyboard feel is normal and is due to slight variation in the manufacturing process" and only replace units with totally dead keys, and furthermore require customers to ship them to HP at the customer's expense and pay shipping on the replacement unit too. But they didn't do that. They found out there was a problem, took in units to disassemble, corrected the manufacturing defects, and replaced people's calculators.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #43 Posted by Reth on 30 Nov 2011, 2:03 a.m.,
in response to message #42 by Lincoln R.

Quote:
... Anyhow, they replaced the units with bad keyboards on essentially a no-questions-asked basis...
Really? How come I haven't heard of it? I for one did not get a replacement.
                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #44 Posted by Ethan Conner on 30 Nov 2011, 3:00 a.m.,
in response to message #43 by Reth

Tim put out a contact e-mail just for people with keyboard issues. This may have been easily missed by someone who doesn't view the forum daily. It was back when the le's were getting to people in the US and the forum was turning over fairly rapidly.

                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #45 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 30 Nov 2011, 3:40 a.m.,
in response to message #44 by Ethan Conner

Quote:
Tim put out a contact e-mail just for people with keyboard issues.
Sounds like an official HP reaction to me...
                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #46 Posted by Lincoln R. on 30 Nov 2011, 7:03 a.m.,
in response to message #44 by Ethan Conner

I'm pretty sure there were some people that called the phone number and went through the regular HP support chain of command to get their replacement. And I don't think it was entirely US-only, IIRC at least one guy from Canada was able to get his replacement, but it may have taken some extra work. The phone number to call is: (800)474-6836

Initially Tim was asking people to email him or someone else at HP because they were collecting the defective units to disassemble and analyze. Once they had enough, I believe he made a post here asking people to go through the normal HP support channels.

Edited: 30 Nov 2011, 7:04 a.m.

      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #47 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 29 Nov 2011, 12:25 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

Alexander, the whole discussion is fruitless. I'm pretty sure the bugs and manufacturing glitches nag those who made the 15C LE a reality more than anybody else. So just be patient and hope for a fix. Or, complain to HP and they will offer you to return the faulty items. Guess what my option in this case is!

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #48 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 29 Nov 2011, 2:09 p.m.,
in response to message #47 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

Quote:
Or, complain to HP and they will offer you to return the faulty items.
If I were based in the US I would do exactly that, but that is not an option after having paid international postage and custom fees.

Maybe some here tend to forget that HP is not making the 15C LE as a charity to make us nerds happy but to make money with it. Customers can expect their money's worth in service.

True, I'm pissed that there is no information nor even a hint as to if, how or when this will be resolved.

And yes, I know this is not an official HP support forum. But I also think you can't have both: get praised for all the good things you've done as an HP official but only be a private person when it comes to taking some heat.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #49 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 29 Nov 2011, 2:28 p.m.,
in response to message #48 by Alexander Oestert

Quote:
And yes, I know this is not an official HP support forum. But I also think you can't have both: get praised for all the good things you've done as an HP official but only be a private person when it comes to taking some heat.
I think there's no doubt Tim would do & distribute a fix if he were allowed to spend his time on it. It doesn't pay, however. Sales figures likely indicate that people buy and praise buggy calculators and that fixes do not change the situation for the better. It's our fault. Wer're the customers making the figures look like they do.

And honestly, I believe that most good things come from the dedicated HP people participating here, and most problems arise from the mechanics of a large company.

                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #50 Posted by M. Joury on 29 Nov 2011, 3:01 p.m.,
in response to message #49 by Thomas Radtke

The problem with that logic is that if we don't buy them then the response will be: "There is no interest in these sort of machines so we'll just stop making them." And if we do buy them the response is: "They are buying them anyway so no need to fix them."

Fortunately I am not quite that cynical (second bit above), and will continue to support the HP calculator folks by buying their products. Remember that there were firmware fixes for the 12C+ and that gives me some small degree of hope.

Either way, while the HP15C LE does have a few issues I still think that it is a great little machine and that those at HP that pushed it through should be appreciated for the effort. Also note that it would appear that HP took the keyboard issue seriously and did something about it so one can't say that they are not listening.

Cheers,

-Marwan

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #51 Posted by sylvandb on 29 Nov 2011, 8:34 p.m.,
in response to message #48 by Alexander Oestert

Quote:
Maybe some here tend to forget that HP is not making the 15C LE as a charity to make us nerds happy but to make money with it.

Get real.

HP is not some podunk little company where a $1,000,000 sales is a project considered seriously "to make money with it."

I sat in many meetings at HP where even $10,000,000 potential revenue projects were discarded without a second thought. It wasn't until potential revenues were 3-4x that amount that cost estimates entered into the "do we investigate this idea further" decision.

Now granted the calculator operation is a lot smaller than where I was. But something like the 15c has to be understand as somebody's pet project where I'm sure the discussion included something much like "development is almost free so hopefully we won't lose too much money."

Quote:
I also think you can't have both: get praised for all the good things you've done as an HP official but only be a private person when it comes to taking some heat.

And that is just rude and unkind and totally backwards and wrong headed. What you describe is exactly how employees MUST be treated when they participate as individuals rather than as company representatives. Do you not understand even in the slightest the difficulty of working for HP balanced with trying to participate here and the advantage that was for us?

Bah.

I'd like to think it was cultural. :(

                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #52 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 30 Nov 2011, 9:05 a.m.,
in response to message #51 by sylvandb

Quote:
HP is not some podunk little company where a $1,000,000 sales is a project considered seriously "to make money with it."

I sat in many meetings at HP where even $10,000,000 potential revenue projects were discarded without a second thought. It wasn't until potential revenues were 3-4x that amount that cost estimates entered into the "do we investigate this idea further" decision.


Throwing large numbers out fails to impress. What does that have to do with product quality issues and company integrity in fixing them?
Quote:
And that is just rude and unkind and totally backwards and wrong headed. What you describe is exactly how employees MUST be treated when they participate as individuals rather than as company representatives. Do you not understand even in the slightest the difficulty of working for HP balanced with trying to participate here and the advantage that was for us?
Who's being rude?
                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #53 Posted by sylvandb on 30 Nov 2011, 7:29 p.m.,
in response to message #52 by Martin Pinckney

Read it again until you have no further question.

      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #54 Posted by Kiyoshi Akima on 29 Nov 2011, 3:05 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

Is it possible to suck the firmware out of a pre-PSE-bug 15C+ and run that on the LE? I don't have a serial port at this time so I don't know if this is possible. From everything I've read here, the PSE bug is worse than all the bugs they may have quashed in its unintentional introduction.

I know it wouldn't be an official fix even if some kind soul with a serial port were to post such firmware. Still...

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #55 Posted by Nicholas Winterer on 29 Nov 2011, 3:23 p.m.,
in response to message #54 by Kiyoshi Akima

The bug is in the emulation layer, not the original 15c firmware.

Edit: Oops, misread this post. Disregard this comment.

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 3:24 p.m.

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #56 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 29 Nov 2011, 3:27 p.m.,
in response to message #54 by Kiyoshi Akima

If at all (the feature can be shut off by the manufacturer) it would be through a JTAG interface, not the serial port. Adding a JTAG connector would require serious surgery which I doubt anybody is willing to do. There may be old firmware images floating around but access would only be possible if they would either be officially released of unofficially leaked (which would violate any NDA signed.)

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 3:28 p.m.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #57 Posted by Walter B on 29 Nov 2011, 4:28 p.m.,
in response to message #56 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

Quote:
There may be old firmware images floating around but access would only be possible if they would either be officially released of unofficially leaked (which would violate any NDA signed.)
Hear, hear! May I read between the lines? ;-)
                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #58 Posted by Kiyoshi Akima on 29 Nov 2011, 4:32 p.m.,
in response to message #56 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

Sorry. When I said "serial port" I meant a RS-232 port on a computer. The computer I'm writing this on only has USB ports so I can't connect to my 15C+ without using an adapter (which I don't have).

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #59 Posted by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA) on 29 Nov 2011, 4:05 p.m.,
in response to message #54 by Kiyoshi Akima

I am more concerned about the brown out bug and power consumption issues since many of us will be running long programs. I hate to lose all the programs and data while running some long program.

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 4:05 p.m.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #60 Posted by Ethan Conner on 29 Nov 2011, 4:43 p.m.,
in response to message #59 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

I would like to say that i hope Tim always feels like he can come to the forum and "be one of the guys". Even if it involves HP or our beloved 15c LE. It amazes me that they were able to convince HP to do the LE in the first place and have Tim offer here to help people with keyboard issues. In another thread someone has already offered a workaround for the PSE situation if i remember correctly. The LE was advertised as being 100 times faster and we all knew this ahead of time. Hopefully we are all capable of knowing what that means for battery consumption. Having Tim on here is an asset and i don't see what is to be gained by driving him away. To me him being here is like seeing your boss at the company picnic. Yeah we may talk a little work but good grief let the man relax and be a normal human being who can make humor and vent just like anyone else.

                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #61 Posted by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA) on 29 Nov 2011, 9:45 p.m.,
in response to message #60 by Ethan Conner

Continuing the discussion completely technical:

Increased battery consumption due to the increased speed was expected. What I am referring is the "brown out" threshold settings. IMHO this is more concerning than the "PSE" bug which is just an annoyance. There were many testing done on the standby and running power drains, brown out threshold by the members of this forum and were published here.

You can find more at this link.

Edited: 29 Nov 2011, 9:46 p.m.

                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #62 Posted by Ethan Conner on 29 Nov 2011, 10:40 p.m.,
in response to message #61 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

I remember that thread. I have not heard of another occurrrence. Just a suggestion maybe enter the long or power hungry program in the emulator. If portability is an issue then using a smartphone emulator would be a good backup. I realise not everyone uses a smartphone so that may not be much help. :)

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #63 Posted by Reth on 30 Nov 2011, 2:15 a.m.,
in response to message #59 by Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA)

Quote:
I am more concerned about the brown out bug and power consumption issues since many of us will be running long programs. I hate to lose all the programs and data while running some long program.


That on HP-15C? Are you serious?

I can't imagine a program run on a calculator is worth waiting more than a couple seconds.

      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #64 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 29 Nov 2011, 10:25 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

Alexander;
You should be patient and polite. I bought one more than you did and i'm doing what i recommended to you. If you really don't like them then you can sell them for a profit on European ebay.

Tim;
For any fix in the works; the brown-out problem is important to me, the PSE bug will be an easy fix but isn't important to me because i've never liked PSE on any calculator, and lastly- memory is a wonderful thing. If there is room for 2 or 2000 more bytes than the original 448 then please let it address them in the fixed version. thanks, db

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #65 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 30 Nov 2011, 1:33 a.m.,
in response to message #64 by db (martinez, ca.)

Quote:
Alexander; You should be patient and polite.
My initial question wasn't rude. Answers, that were inapropriate and are deleted now, triggered my subsequent reaction. And it was not 'cultural' - I fully knew what I was writing, but I seem to have a completely diffrent view on this issue than the majority here.
                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #66 Posted by Reth on 30 Nov 2011, 2:28 a.m.,
in response to message #65 by Alexander Oestert

I'm with you all the way. Some sort of "political correctness" is been tested here. HP employees are treated like the "lion society" in ancient Rome.

                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #67 Posted by Howard Owen on 30 Nov 2011, 8:50 a.m.,
in response to message #66 by Reth

Quote:
HP employees are treated like the "lion society" in ancient Rome.

I think it's more a case of some folks treating Tim as a representative of an evil multinational corporation that has committed the crime of releasing a defective product, whereas many here know Tim as someone who was a member of this community before going to work for HP. Some of us have met Tim personally at the HHC conferences and know first hand that he's one of us. We know for a fact that his disappointment over the firmware bugs exceeds our own. We know that if we ever see a fix for those bugs, it will be because Tim and others will have struggled against all odds to make it happen. If he doesn't overcome those odds it won't be for lack of trying everything humanly possible for someone in his situation.

Most people haven't met Tim personally. Many people didn't sign the petition to bring back the 15C years ago. Those of us who did remember how absurd it seemed that HP would ever release a resurrected 15C, and have some appreciation of what a miracle Tim and others pulled off. If others lack that perspective and only see the flaws, it's to be expected. Tim could probably have a thicker skin in the face of that sort of criticism. But his critics could also pause and consider the other side of the coin.

                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #68 Posted by Tim Wessman on 30 Nov 2011, 9:50 a.m.,
in response to message #67 by Howard Owen

This will be my last post on the issue and for quite a long time.

This has nothing to do with not having a "thick skin" or me over-reacting or anything. Rather, I agreed that should my participation ever cause problems on this forum I would cease to do so. You may notice that all other employees that previously were participating are no longer doing so. There was concern expressed about this forum and the way some were reacting.

Since I am an HP employee and this forum is directly related to what I work on, it is natural that some may treat things I post as gospel. This has obviously caused at least a few people to respond negatively and so I simply can't continue to post here. HP has policies regarding participation in forums.

While true that I occasionally posted something semi-official (such as asking to collect some 15c units for examination), this was at the request of the support team since it was deemed to best way to get the information as quickly as possible.

TW

Edited: 30 Nov 2011, 9:51 a.m.

                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #69 Posted by Howard Owen on 30 Nov 2011, 10:13 a.m.,
in response to message #68 by Tim Wessman

Well, that's a crying shame. But I totally understand.

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #70 Posted by Gerry Schultz on 30 Nov 2011, 2:10 p.m.,
in response to message #69 by Howard Owen

All I can think to say is that I'm so sorry. I've always thought it isn't as important what Tim said in his posts but was an indication that someone in HP's calculator division was slipping in and seeing what we had to say. His infrequent posts was a reminder that said yes, I am listening to you.

For Tim and all those HP employees that no longer post, I hope you continue to come here and see what we have to say. If you stop coming then it's diminishes what the rest of us share here.

Gerry

I just had a thought: Do HP employees stand around the water cooler chatting, during a break, about some comment made on the HP Museum's forum from last night? Oh, to be a fly on the wall...

Edited: 30 Nov 2011, 2:39 p.m.

                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #71 Posted by uhmgawa on 30 Nov 2011, 4:36 p.m.,
in response to message #68 by Tim Wessman

Quote:
This will be my last post on the issue and for quite a long time.. You may notice that all other employees that previously were participating are no longer doing so.

That's quite unfortunate and I'd encourage all of you to reconsider, otherwise both sides suffer a loss. While I don't claim to know HP's strategy in this market, in absolute terms I can't imagine cultivation of this forum isn't of significant value to you all. Understood dealing with occasional irate users isn't pleasant, but it seems a trivial price to pay for sustaining the following here.

Quote:
While true that I occasionally posted something semi-official (such as asking to collect some 15c units for examination), this was at the request of the support team since it was deemed to best way to get the information as quickly as possible.

Case in point of the value to HP for expending cycles here. I'd hazard the above was available and leveragable to HP due to the presence you've personally developed in this forum.

Quote:
Since I am an HP employee and this forum is directly related to what I work on, it is natural that some may treat things I post as gospel. This has obviously caused at least a few people to respond negatively and so I simply can't continue to post here.

Frankly as an observer, I'd say you've done well to address/deflect the tirades as appropriate. So this decision seems a little surprising, if not somewhat extreme.

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #72 Posted by Lincoln R. on 1 Dec 2011, 1:30 a.m.,
in response to message #71 by uhmgawa

Asking the HP employees to reconsider may not be possible. It's entirely possible that their boss told them not to post on this forum anymore. I agree it's a big loss, it was a cool thing to have their presence in the community (I can't think of too many other products where this is the case), but American businesses see everything as a lawsuit waiting to happen (understandably so in a country where you can get sued by a guy whose hand you ran over while he was stealing your hubcaps.)

Edited: 1 Dec 2011, 1:53 a.m.

                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #73 Posted by uhmgawa on 30 Nov 2011, 7:46 p.m.,
in response to message #68 by Tim Wessman

Incidentally having even an unofficial HP presence here likely has an overall moderating influence. Most level headed users aware HP folks are present will likely keep their comments constructive and avoid resorting to offensive bashing. Losing even a semi-active HP presence isn't going to improve matters in this respect.

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #74 Posted by Olivier De Smet on 30 Nov 2011, 5:43 p.m.,
in response to message #64 by db (martinez, ca.)

The way the rom addresses ram can only allow a maximum of 224 registers with some 'minor' patches (I have them on a private HP15 emulator ...) instead of the 64 original registers.

To allow more, a rather complete rom rewriting should be necessary.

Edited: 30 Nov 2011, 5:43 p.m.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #75 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 30 Nov 2011, 8:50 p.m.,
in response to message #74 by Olivier De Smet

a "rather complete rom rewriting" might be worth it for the extra memory, but i know the reason for all this was to re-animate the original 15c.

      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #76 Posted by Patrice on 30 Nov 2011, 7:19 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Alexander Oestert

Dear Alexander,

What answer did you expect with your question ?
Even if if packed in a nice sentence, you are asking for a trade secret.
The saying "The ones how know don't talk, the ones how talk don't know" perfectly apply here. It is a trade secret and every one how know have no right to answer (at least seriously).

In France we have a saying "Question idiote, réponse idiote" which translate in something like "Dumb question, dumb answer". It is just the answer you got.

Patrice

Edited: 30 Nov 2011, 7:23 p.m.

            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #77 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 1 Dec 2011, 2:12 a.m.,
in response to message #76 by Patrice

Quote:
you are asking for a trade secret


Considering the answer to a mere support question ("When will my defective product get fixed?") as a trade secret is absurd. That would render all support hotlines completely useless.

Calling any of my postings in this thread 'rude', 'bashing', 'idiotic' or 'impolite' is - well - rude, bashing and impolite.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #78 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 1 Dec 2011, 10:55 a.m.,
in response to message #77 by Alexander Oestert

Agreed.

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #79 Posted by Ethan Conner on 1 Dec 2011, 1:29 p.m.,
in response to message #77 by Alexander Oestert

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #80 Posted by Patrice on 1 Dec 2011, 2:10 p.m.,
in response to message #77 by Alexander Oestert

Obviously, Tim have not the right to give you the real answer, For me, it is enough to call it a secret.

In case they are doing something to solve the problem, we will never know it before HP make the answer official.

Patrice

PS: A secret is something that can be repeated to only one person at a time :)

                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #81 Posted by sylvandb on 2 Dec 2011, 1:11 p.m.,
in response to message #77 by Alexander Oestert

Quote:
Calling any of my postings in this thread 'rude', 'bashing', 'idiotic' or 'impolite' is - well - rude, bashing and impolite.

Is it impolite for ones inappropriate behavior to make a public spectacle at another's party? Obviously.

Is it impolite to escort previous derelict from said party even if it temporarily contributes to said spectacle? Obviously not.

And because it is equally obvious that subtlety of behavior is lost, you are the one who is causing said public spectacle with your inappropriate behavior and it would be better for all if you were escorted from the party.

                        
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #82 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 2 Dec 2011, 1:32 p.m.,
in response to message #81 by sylvandb

I refuse to believe that you really meant what you wrote in the above statement. None of my statements in this thread warrants such a judgement.

Maybe it IS cultural after all...

                              
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #83 Posted by Lincoln R. on 2 Dec 2011, 5:27 p.m.,
in response to message #82 by Alexander Oestert

At least in my opinion, your initial post was polite and reasonable. Tim's response, while certainly not rude, was a bit sarcastic and teasing, given Tim's position within HP, however this would appear to be the norm for Tim's posts regarding official HP matters. Your response to Tim still seemed perfectly polite, essentially "Cut the jokes, do you have any real info to give us?" Unfortunately, the answer to that was no, likely due to non-disclosure agreements, a violation of which could cost Tim his job (and likely further delay/ruin hope of a 15C bugfix).

However, interpreting "You're reading too much" as "there will never be a bug fix" seems to be jumping to conclusions. Tim's response of "If you want official answers, go through official channels" is probably the *only* answer he could give you without putting his job on the line. The guy has a wife and kids, he's not going to risk his job to appease some guy on an internet forum. Neither would I, and I sincerely doubt that you would do that if you were in Tim's position.

And anyhow, the e-mail that Kerem posted indicates that HP obviously knows about this problem, and is on their "fix list," which while I don't want to do excessive speculation, would seem to indicate that a fix is forthcoming. As for distribution to us, I'm not certain. Hopefully distribution of the fix can at least be handled in the same way as the 12C+ fix, and maybe there will even be some kind of reflashing program for those who don't have access to cables and serial ports.

                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #84 Posted by Patrice on 2 Dec 2011, 11:55 p.m.,
in response to message #83 by Lincoln R.

Agreed, but for one detail.
My sentence :

Quote:
Even if if packed in a nice sentence, you are asking for a trade secret.
would be writen as:
Quote:
At least in my opinion, your initial post was polite but not reasonable.
If you rewrite the first message without the polite part, it ends as something like that:
Tim, tell us what HP will do this the HP15C problems.
Which is not reasonable to me;

Patrice

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #85 Posted by Lincoln R. on 3 Dec 2011, 12:22 a.m.,
in response to message #84 by Patrice

His initial post was not directed at Tim. Maybe it was surreptitiously directed at him, but it just happened that Tim was the first to respond with his typical breed of humor.

                                                
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #86 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 3 Dec 2011, 3:08 a.m.,
in response to message #85 by Lincoln R.

Quote:
His initial post was not directed at Tim.
Thanks for pointing that out.

If the answer to my initial question had contained this

Quote:
We are aware of the PSE issue and have it on our fix list but I do not have an ETA.
the whole thread had ended there.

I received the same mail from HP support after filing my issue and I have a hard time imagining that some support people are allowed to state this but any calculator division employee is not. And it seems to clearly not be a 'trade secret'!

Edited: 3 Dec 2011, 3:18 a.m.

                                                
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #87 Posted by Patrice on 3 Dec 2011, 6:37 a.m.,
in response to message #85 by Lincoln R.

Quote:
His initial post was not directed at Tim.
Agreed, it was not explicit. But it was implicit, Tim is the only guy on this forum to have any knowledge on this question. Any other to answer is just guessing.

Patrice

                                                      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #88 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 3 Dec 2011, 7:08 a.m.,
in response to message #87 by Patrice

Quote:
Any other to answer is just guessing.
Prophecy was explicitly invited ;-).
                                    
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #89 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 3 Dec 2011, 3:25 a.m.,
in response to message #83 by Lincoln R.

Quote:

However, interpreting "You're reading too much" as "there will never be a bug fix" seems to be jumping to conclusions.


Quote: I now believe that we will at least get a bug fix at some point. Quote: You are reading too much.

What else could this possibly mean than 'no bug fix'?

                                          
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #90 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 3 Dec 2011, 7:16 a.m.,
in response to message #89 by Alexander Oestert

Quote:
What else could this possibly mean than 'no bug fix'?
Likely this: 'I haven't said anything.'

Why? Because Tim has already shown not to talk about company secrets(, but having a strange kind of humor sometimes).

                                                
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #91 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 3 Dec 2011, 7:51 a.m.,
in response to message #90 by Thomas Radtke

Thanks for this interpretation, I would never have come up with this myself.

I still beg to differ on the subject of calling a 'support answer' a secret. I'm imagining asking my car mechanic when he will have repaired my ride answering: 'Can't tell you, that's my secret!' Would anybody bring in his car to that guy again? I very much doubt it!

Edited: 3 Dec 2011, 7:57 a.m.

                                                      
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #92 Posted by Lincoln R. on 3 Dec 2011, 9:13 a.m.,
in response to message #91 by Alexander Oestert

Your car mechanic isn't an employee of GM or Toyota or whoever who needs their proprietary information to replace a worn out brake pad. You're paying the mechanic to fix your car using parts and service procedures which are available to the public. HP is paying Tim, Cyrille, or whoever it is who is tasked with fixing this bug to fix their calculator firmware using HP intellectual property.

In the US, companies are *very* paranoid about IP, and understandably so: For many American companies, IP is the only thing of any value they have, and this is almost certainly the case with the HP calculator division. They own no manufacturing facilities, choosing to contract out all manufacturing. As such, the most valuable asset (other than people) they have is the design of their calculators, whether that be firmware code, PCB schematics, industrial design (Although the 15C's layout and look probably aren't covered under any design patents anymore if they ever were, an HP 15C looks like an HP 15C, and has HP badging on it that someone else can't just knock off), mechanical design of things like keyswitches, etc.

I agree that a timeframe would be nice to know, however if HP's employee agreements are anything like the ones I've had to sign to get a job in the past, Tim could easily be fired for sharing that information because it's a liability to a company to have anyone other than official PR types release that kind of information (For instance, if Tim said "Oh, yeah, we'll have a fix for that by January 1" and no fix came out, there's a slight chance that people could actually sue HP for making false statements.) This is the reason that nobody would admit to the existence of the 15C LE until they were actually rolling off assembly lines, because until that pint, it's entirely possible HP could have cut the project.

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #93 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 3 Dec 2011, 9:58 a.m.,
in response to message #92 by Lincoln R.

Make it the carpenter who designed your new kitchen table or the photographer who took your wedding pictures: would you let him tell you the date were a secret when he finally delivers the product or when he fixes it? I didn't ask to tell me how to do it myself.

Edited: 3 Dec 2011, 10:00 a.m.

                                                                  
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #94 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 3 Dec 2011, 10:23 a.m.,
in response to message #93 by Alexander Oestert

There's an important thing you miss: While HP admitted a fix is on their list, it is an open question if they find that their customers can claim this fix and if it is done. We always have the choice to return the 15C LE.

I still think we won't get a new firmware through official channels, but that's entirely my oberservation and experience with HP, not derived by anything an HP employee said.

                                                            
Re: [HP 15C LE] Prophecy on bug fix?
Message #95 Posted by Walter B on 3 Dec 2011, 10:57 a.m.,
in response to message #92 by Lincoln R.

Quote:
Your car mechanic isn't an employee of GM or Toyota or whoever who needs their proprietary information to replace a worn out brake pad.
Slight difference: In Germany, the major fraction of car mechanics IS employed by the respective motor companies ;-) And indeed, if any of those won't be able to tell me when an obvious product failure will be fixed, I'll certainly not recommend this car brand anymore. Some years ago, there were examples of luxury cars showing problems in their control electronics, and the response of the company was poor (presumably not having a real solution at that time) - this supported the rise of other brands. But that's totally off topic, of course d;-)

Edited: 3 Dec 2011, 10:58 a.m.


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