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(deleted post)
Message #1 Posted by deleted on 14 Oct 2011, 4:14 p.m.

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Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #2 Posted by Jake Schwartz on 14 Oct 2011, 4:22 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by deleted

Quote:
why not have a display/keyboard overlay that is one unit with minimal current draw?

This is the exact idea put forth in 2005 by Tim Wessman's winning entry in HP's "Design A Calculator" contest that year, which Tim presented at HHC2005 in Illinois. Great minds think alike...

Jake

      
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #3 Posted by Paul Dale on 14 Oct 2011, 8:48 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by deleted

I've thought about keys with dynamic labels. Dismissed mostly because they've never been practical at least before touch screens which aren't really keys.

The idea is interesting and seems very cool and nerdy. The downside is you can't see what key does what until you've entered the appropriate "mode". E.g. which shift key do I enter for xxx?

Still a nice idea.

- Pauli

            
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #4 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 15 Oct 2011, 2:23 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by Paul Dale

Quote:
The downside is you can't see what key does what until you've entered the appropriate "mode". E.g. which shift key do I enter for xxx?
I would become clear if the shift key is called 'Inv'. Another one could be called 'Trig' or 'Prgm'. I imagine it could be like going through menus.
                  
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #5 Posted by Cristian Arezzini on 15 Oct 2011, 6:57 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by Thomas Radtke

Quote:

I would become clear if the shift key is called 'Inv'. Another one could be called 'Trig' or 'Prgm'. I imagine it could be like going through menus.


Hehe... it would be just like having different "modes" where every function is a primary key! :)

Cristian

                        
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #6 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 15 Oct 2011, 8:28 a.m.,
in response to message #5 by Cristian Arezzini

Yes, and this is not unseen on original calculators for touch screen devices or certain remotes, i.e., it's already a proven concept.

      
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #7 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 15 Oct 2011, 9:05 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by deleted

Let me repeat myself (again): For a start, take a proven concept that will sell, i.e., the 42S. Without being too innovate, you will already have to fight with enough problems.

      
(deleted post)
Message #8 Posted by deleted on 15 Oct 2011, 3:17 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by deleted

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Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #9 Posted by Walter B on 15 Oct 2011, 3:33 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by deleted

This is next to what I remember from 2006. A bare plate with 37 holes. Hmmh, everybody will agree a calculator may (!) look like this. And with a nice CAD SW, everybody can draw such a picture. Without further contents it's hard to detect major mental works implemented. Any progress since 2006?

                  
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #10 Posted by Hugh Evans on 15 Oct 2011, 3:53 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Walter B

This is the response I get from simply sharing an idea? I didn't even say: here's my great new final plan to send out for prototyping?

I formally apologize for sharing any thoughts/ ideas with this group. Do we need to hold a poll to address if I'm welcome here? Have I ever expressed strong negativity towards others around here? I'm getting rather disillusioned by all of this.

I'm feeling like the most hated guy in the forum to have a quick rendering I post to be blasted. A rendering intended to show off nothing other than a thought.

All I'm trying to do is give something to this community. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and everyone is happy paying $400 a piece for worn out machines.

I've always enjoyed this community, but this shift in attitude is nothing short of cynical and rude.

                        
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #11 Posted by Walter B on 15 Oct 2011, 4:07 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Hugh Evans

Come on, first you wrote:

Quote:
I think most people around here would be excited enough about the new portrait layout design I put together last night.
and then you post the message I responded to. If that's what people shall get excited about, I think many will share my view. But I will not comment OpenRPN vapourware any further, too many disappointments in the past :-(
                              
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #12 Posted by Hugh Evans on 15 Oct 2011, 4:20 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Walter B

I was referring to a design I have not yet posted. Apparently I shouldn't post anything around here.

                        
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #13 Posted by M. Joury on 15 Oct 2011, 10:57 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Hugh Evans

Speaking for myself I would love to continue to see ideas put forward in an effort to rekindle the OpenRPN effort.

Cheers,

-Marwan

                              
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #14 Posted by Michael Kussmaul on 16 Oct 2011, 6:32 a.m.,
in response to message #13 by M. Joury

Me too! I'm missing a modern RPN or RPL calculator. Those 15c, 42S are all great, but to be honest quite outdated for nowadays. Personally I'm not the guy who lives in the past, so I bought the 15c LE solely because I like the form factor and RPN is a must - there is no other calculator on the market offering this...

The WP 34S looks promising as well and all involved did a nice job on it, but we can't overcome the physical limitations of it (small LCD screen, non-native keys, low memory), so even it takes longer, I would like to see a new approach like OpenRPN.

                                    
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #15 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 16 Oct 2011, 7:42 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Michael Kussmaul

Quote:
Personally I'm not the guy who lives in the past [...]
Of course, String 'Theories' require more than a 8x8 matrix, and the 15C is a little slow for computed flow dynamics anyway.

Are you seriously using a pocketable calculator in your professional work and touch the limits of the 15C? I don't, so I'd like to know your applications or that of other users asking for a next gen calculator.

                                          
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #16 Posted by Michael Kussmaul on 16 Oct 2011, 8:13 a.m.,
in response to message #15 by Thomas Radtke

I don't use my calculator for all things :-) My background is physics as well but I switched to computer science for my job.

For heavy math I use computer programs (simplifying formulas, taylor expansions, etc), so I would not enter a 8x8 matrix on a calculator, because a computer still offers much better editing capabilities.

But for smaller on-the-spot calculations a calculator is much better. E.g. for OpenGL programming you have 4x4 matrices and my calculator is useful for debugging them. I also wrote some small programs to help my work, e.g. Enter an OpenGL vector x,y,z and let it run through my transformation matrix and return the resulting vector. I also need simple trigonometry calculations all the time.

I think those are the main use cases for a calculator, I don't need fancy plotting, symbolic calculations (a computer is much better at those tasks). But I'm hooked to RPN and appreciate some simple programmable capabilities. And I like to do simple calculations with a physical device, so I don't have to switch context on my computer just to open the computer-calculator-app to compute a simple cosine...

I also have a 48G, and like it very much, but it's just to big to take with me all the time. So the 15c will fit in my already filled-up bag. I even would appreciate it the 15c would be half as thick :-)

                                                
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #17 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 16 Oct 2011, 8:25 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Michael Kussmaul

Quote:
For heavy math I use computer programs (simplifying formulas, taylor expansions, etc), so I would not enter a 8x8 matrix on a calculator, because a computer still offers much better editing capabilities.
Yes, but not much. With USER mode, data entry is a breeze :-).

Quote:
But for smaller on-the-spot calculations a calculator is much better. E.g. for OpenGL programming you have 4x4 matrices and my calculator is useful for debugging them.
And the 15C can do it!

Quote:
I even would appreciate it the 15c would be half as thick :-)
But please using a steel chassis ;-).

It is my whole point that what was useful and sufficient 30 years ago hasn't changed much. Just the opposite, more and more is done on the PC, so some calculator features even became obsolete (like, as you mentioned, CAS on the 48).

Unfortunately, one feature is lost: Reliability. And that's the most important feature of all :-(.

                                                      
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #18 Posted by Michael Kussmaul on 16 Oct 2011, 8:47 a.m.,
in response to message #17 by Thomas Radtke

Yes, entering a 8x8 matrix is not the problem on the 15C (ok, it is, as the 15C only support 7x7 ;-) but most of the time you need to edit them afterwards (typos, changes) and this is much easier on a computer for a matrix this large.

A steel or aluminum chassis would be good as well, but while I'm enjoying my aluminum MacBook, I'm not sure, if it is a good idea for a calculator. I also have an aluminum remote control for my tv (the one from Apple) but I dropped it to the floor many times and now has 20+ ugly dents... so its much more fragil than plastic. I think for larger devices (laptops) its ok, because you don't drop them, but for smaller things (calculators) the risk is greater to drop them...

                                                
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #19 Posted by Michael Kussmaul on 16 Oct 2011, 8:35 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Michael Kussmaul

Just to clarify: I don't touch the limit of the 15C in technical terms, more in usability terms: e.g. I'm missing

  • a multi line display: so I can see the full stack (at least 2 lines, more would be even better)
  • alphanumeric support: so program code is less cryptic
  • menu system: aka 42S for less common functions, because I don't have the manual with me all the time and I easily forget the usage of functions
  • nice typesetting: e.g. In degree mode show 10 34' 23.34" and not aka 15c 10.342334, the same for imaginary numbers etc. bonus points if the program could also output it's own special characters, e.g. a program could output "radius: 15m" instead of simply "15". Bonus points++ if the calculator understands, that the value is still 15, so I could continue calculating with it :-)
  • some sort of import/export: to store programs on computer and even editing them there, and just transfer them to the calculator, as writing programs on calculator is cumbersome... I would even be happy if calculator itself would not support editing programs, so you have to write them on computer and uploading them
                                                      
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #20 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 16 Oct 2011, 8:54 a.m.,
in response to message #19 by Michael Kussmaul

Quote:
nice typesetting: e.g. In degree mode show 10 34' 23.34" and not aka 15c 10.342334 [...]
Like on some Casios and Commodores, yes. But then, some function would be nice to decompose the format (just to maybe put the minutes onto the stack). Easily done on HPs with a few keystrokes :-). Come to think of it, former HP had put a lot of thoughts into the firmware. That the current HP isn't able to do good firmware anymore has been proven alone by the fact that complex numbers cannot be decomposed on the 35s.

Why requesting such features when there's no one left to implement them right?

                                                      
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #21 Posted by Cristian Arezzini on 17 Oct 2011, 12:11 a.m.,
in response to message #19 by Michael Kussmaul

Quote:
Just to clarify: I don't touch the limit of the 15C in technical terms, more in usability terms: e.g. I'm missing

  • a multi line display: so I can see the full stack (at least 2 lines, more would be even better)
  • alphanumeric support: so program code is less cryptic
  • menu system: aka 42S for less common functions, because I don't have the manual with me all the time and I easily forget the usage of functions
  • nice typesetting: e.g. In degree mode show 10 34' 23.34" and not aka 15c 10.342334, the same for imaginary numbers etc. bonus points if the program could also output it's own special characters, e.g. a program could output "radius: 15m" instead of simply "15". Bonus points++ if the calculator understands, that the value is still 15, so I could continue calculating with it :-)
  • some sort of import/export: to store programs on computer and even editing them there, and just transfer them to the calculator, as writing programs on calculator is cumbersome... I would even be happy if calculator itself would not support editing programs, so you have to write them on computer and uploading them

You just described the Hp48! :) By the way, I totally agree with your points and that's why - bulkiness aside - the 48 is my favorite calculator...

Cristian

                                                            
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #22 Posted by Walter B on 17 Oct 2011, 12:52 a.m.,
in response to message #21 by Cristian Arezzini

Quote:
... that's why - bulkiness aside - the 48 is my favorite calculator...
Bulkiness is one of the key features of the 48, however :-I
                                                                  
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #23 Posted by Cristian Arezzini on 17 Oct 2011, 1:09 a.m.,
in response to message #22 by Walter B

It is indeed, but I have to say I don't mind it. First, I really *love* the big screen, and you can't have a big screen on a small calculator. Second, the 48 lives in my work bag (and before it lived in my university backpack) so its bulkiness wasn't a problem. And I love the feeling of power and sturdiness it gives - it just looks like it means business! :) And for when I'm out and about, I always have the 34s in my small shoulder bag...

Cristian

                                                            
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #24 Posted by Steve Simpkin on 17 Oct 2011, 1:54 a.m.,
in response to message #21 by Cristian Arezzini

The HP-48SX was the last HP calculator I bought new (and the first one I reach for at work), until the HP30b which is now a WP34s :)

            
Re: Pocket Sized Vertical (Portrait) Style Calculator Interest
Message #25 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 15 Oct 2011, 4:03 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by deleted

The keyboard layout is the same as the 30b except that you obviously plan to put the arithmetic functions to the left ("old style"). The display area seems to be large enough for a graphical display. This would imply a menu system which would very well deserve another row of keys.


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