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hp15c LE firmware problem, keys rough
Message #1 Posted by Brackett on 3 Oct 2011, 10:17 p.m.

I got a new 15c LE Friday. There were a couple disappointments I have with it. One is the firmware seems to have a problem, the other is with the keys.

Has anyone else noticed that a repeated 'PSE' instruction during a running program will not display the data? Only the initial 'PSE' is displayed. Try the example on page 114, Display Format Control. If you stop the program the display flashes and is only cleared with CF9. Resuming the program then it will display one more 'PSE' and goes blank until the end of the program regardless of any additional 'PSE'. After running the program there is no indication of a register overflow (flashing display).

My original 15c has nice shiny, smooth keys. The LE keys are rough. I'm used to running my fingers over the keys to operate the calc. The other 'key' issue is the top legends are 'tampo' (printed) not sublimation (multi injection molding) as on the original 15c. That means the legends will wear off from use as the top of the keys get the most abrasion. I might be tempted to find a busted old 15 with good keys and swap them (might not work).

btw, mine fails the self test on page 261: hold ON, hold X, release ON, release X. Error 9 every time. I'm not sure I trust my LE.

      
Re: hp15c LE firmware problem, keys rough
Message #2 Posted by Jeff O. on 3 Oct 2011, 10:37 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Brackett

There has been a lot discussion about all of your issues in the past month or so. For the complete story, go to the most recent archive and start reading around September 1. Brief comments as follows:

Quote:
Has anyone else noticed that a repeated 'PSE' instruction during a running program will not display the data?

That was found very early on by Mike Morrow. It is a bug in the emulation layer. The calculator will produce correct results, you just can't see multiple pauses.

Quote:
My original 15c has nice shiny, smooth keys. The LE keys are rough.

Several reviews noted this. Most users don't seem to mind. You do, which is up to you, of course.

Quote:
The other 'key' issue is the top legends are 'tampo' (printed) not sublimation (multi injection molding) as on the original 15c.

Double injection-molded keys went away a long time ago. It would be nice if the 15c LE had them, but no real reason to expect their return now.

Quote:
...mine fails the self test on page 261...

The original self tests have no meaning with regard to the functioning of the 15c LE. They were supposed to be disabled, and reference to them was supposed to be removed from the manual. The ON - X test corrupts program memory (another emulation layer bug), so don't do it if you have a program in memory.

sorry if the above sounds terse, it was not intended to, I just wrote it in a hurry... Please join the discussion.

Also edited to correct typo in bold

Edited: 4 Oct 2011, 7:57 a.m. after one or more responses were posted

            
Re: hp15c LE firmware problem, keys rough
Message #3 Posted by Brackett on 3 Oct 2011, 11:43 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Jeff O.

Hi Jeff,

I hadn't looked far enough back in the archives to see the issues I raised.

Thanks for the summary!

Best regards,

Mike

                  
Re: hp15c LE firmware problem, keys rough
Message #4 Posted by Bart (UK) on 4 Oct 2011, 6:06 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by Brackett

No problem, all the regulars here know that there isn't a good search facility for this forum and Google doesn't link correctly to messages recently moved to the archives (which most of the recent messages will suffer as there is much activity at the moment causing messages to be moved to the archives quite quickly).

The criteria for moving messages to the archives is based on number, the limit is 501 messages in the "active" forum thereafter the next oldest message gets moved to the archives. In this manner, threads and threads of threads can get fragmented until the complete thread is in the archive. Also a message moving out of the forum does not appear in the archive immediately. Even though I've been around here for over two years and gained a reasonable understanding of the forum and archives, and use several techniques for searhing the archives, I still sometimes struggle to find a particular thread.

                  
Re: hp15c LE firmware problem, keys rough
Message #5 Posted by Jeff O. on 4 Oct 2011, 8:10 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by Brackett

You are welcome.

Regarding your idea to swap out the keys with those from a non-working original 15C, there were some good tear down pictures of a 12c (physically identical to the 15c LE) posted recently (yesterday, I think) which show the keys and their construction. All except the f and g key are on a common framework, while the 15C has 39 individual keys. Instead of swapping keys, how about tearing your 15c LE down an spraying the keys with a few coats of clear gloss lacquer? That should also help prevent the legends from wearing off.

      
HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #6 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 4 Oct 2011, 8:33 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Brackett

Why, oh, why does HP not address this issue on their homepage in a manner that is easy to find? And why are they not contacting the LE buyers by mail via the resellers?

I really fear that if HP does not do something in the very, very near future (i.e. NOW!) they will destroy the goodwill that came with the 15c LE re-launch and eventually even ruin the perfect reputation of the original 15c. I reckon new buyers who are not properly informed about the nature of the problems might imagine it to be a problem with the 15c as such and not only the emulator.

Edited: 4 Oct 2011, 10:10 a.m.

            
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #7 Posted by Reth on 4 Oct 2011, 3:01 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Alexander Oestert

Well they did something already - TW wrote:

Quote:
15C Keyboard Issues [UPDATE- DO NOT EMAIL ME]
Guess what I read between the lines ;)
                  
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #8 Posted by Alexander Oestert on 4 Oct 2011, 3:15 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Reth

They should do something more obvious than having us read between the lines. Besides, what do you read there?

                        
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #9 Posted by Reth on 4 Oct 2011, 4:00 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by Alexander Oestert

"You are on your own, mate, don't bother trying to contact us" - that's what I read.

What they should do is simple - put here or on HP web site an email address where owners of faulty calculators can disclose their problems and get solutions or at least some information about what's been happening. As simple as that.

                              
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #10 Posted by Gerry Schultz on 4 Oct 2011, 4:57 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Reth

Reth, I disagree. I believe it means to stop send me anymore emails. These keyboard issues have been discovered recently and when we (a small group of us) first talked to Tim about the keyboard reports on the 15C LE at the HHC conference, he wasn't sure what was going on as he had not seen one yet. I had my 15C LEs with the bad keys at the conference and when there was a break for Tim to look at them, he did and I could tell that he was disappointed by what he felt when pushing on the bad keys. He asked me if he could evaluate them and I left them with him.

I'm sure since then, Tim has been inundated with email queries and offers from customers to send in their 15c LEs for evaluation. As the 'HP point man' for our community, everyone wants to help with this issue. So, he's getting bombarded from us and probably from his superiors to figure out and fix both the firmware and hardware issues. In that light, his statement of do not email me makes sense.

I too work for a LARGE corporation and it takes a while to fix or change something, so I think we just need to be patient and let HP work through these issues. IMHO the reason we haven't heard anything is that the calculator group can't say anything until this situation has been figured out, a solution has been assembled and tested, and finally, that Legal has authorized an official HP spokesman to convey what is being done. The quickest way to get fired is to act as a company spokesman without your employer's permission.

Finally, I want to mention that even though Tim is a HP employee, he is a part of our community and cares about the calculators he helps build as much as we do. Just because we don't hear anything doesn't mean nothing is happening.

Now if I don't hear anything in a few months, then I will as curious as the rest of you about what's going on. I want this resolved ASAP but I don't want a firmware upgrade that introduces new bugs or have the keyboard problems fixed but then have displays start failing prematurely. The people I'm concerned about are those who have purchased 15c LEs and don't have any recourse but HP Customer Service. I've had some recent experiences with them and was not impressed. At least we here in the community can pool our knowledge and experience to make educated guesses about what's going on with this situation.

When I hear anything about my calculators I will let everyone know what happened.

Thanks, Gerry

                                    
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #11 Posted by Glenn Dowdy on 4 Oct 2011, 5:10 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Gerry Schultz

Quote:

Finally, I want to mention that even though Tim is a HP employee, he is a part of our community and cares about the calculators he helps build as much as we do. Just because we don't hear anything doesn't mean nothing is happening.

Now if I don't hear anything in a few months, then I will as curious as the rest of you about what's going on. I want this resolved ASAP but I don't want a firmware upgrade that introduces new bugs or have the keyboard problems fixed but then have displays start failing prematurely. The people I'm concerned about are those who have purchased 15c LEs and don't have any recourse but HP Customer Service. I've had some recent experiences with them and was not impressed. At least we here in the community can pool our knowledge and experience to make educated guesses about what's going on with this situation.

When I hear anything about my calculators I will let everyone know what happened.

Thanks, Gerry


Without going in to details, please be assured that we are working on the root cause analysis with the aim of solving the key issue for any future production. I don't have any insights into what will happen to current owners with unacceptable keyboard issues, other that the Support Manager is also working that a solution for you.

                                          
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #12 Posted by Gerry Schultz on 4 Oct 2011, 5:29 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Glenn Dowdy

Notice how quickly Glenn responded? HP is watching out for our interests.

Gerry

                                                
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #13 Posted by E Walsh on 4 Oct 2011, 5:50 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Gerry Schultz

First, I want to say that I appreciate HP addressing our desire to get the 15C back into production (Thanks Tim, Glenn, et al.!). My unit came through with no key problems. In fact, the keys feel great and register correctly every time. Since the rate of units with one or more defective keys hovers around 10-12% from what I've read, it appears that 88-90% of us will be satisfied with a firmware update, and the remaining with an exchange. If HP has suspended production pending revisions to the manufacturing process, then perhaps these solutions can happen.

                                    
Re: HP DO SOMETHING and do it fast!
Message #14 Posted by Reth on 4 Oct 2011, 5:58 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Gerry Schultz

Well I might be wrong with what the message implies, but I can remember not too far back what happened with the crappy HP49+ keyboard. Absolutely nothing official, latter fix for new production but nothing for the early birds with faulty units. I still have one of them and the answer from the official Australian dealer was - HP has not formally recognized any keyboard issues so no replacement and go away.

Then I think we don't ask for more than some info for the time being. (Thanks, Glenn!)

BTW I have a problem with the way warranty is being handled. The enclosed piece of paper states there is a warranty form in the box for some countries (?) and if not so, this form could be downloaded from HP website which turns out to be dead end - no such calculator there hence no form. The only way apparently is to write a letter to HP :-/ all this happening in 21st century?

I see no reason to be very optimistic with this issue. Hope you are right and I'm wrong.

Cheers,

_______________________________
edit: after seeing Glenn's post

Edited: 4 Oct 2011, 6:04 p.m.

      
Re: hp15c LE firmware problem, keys rough
Message #15 Posted by Bart (UK) on 4 Oct 2011, 11:53 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Brackett

Quote:
That means the legends will wear off from use as the top of the keys get the most abrasion.
With HP's current method that may not happen too quickly, it takes quite a bit of effort to remove: see this thread:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv020.cgi?read=186042


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