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After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #1 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 8:20 a.m. This is from an idiot savant who is not an expert in all that is RPN, or calculators, or math... Now that we have the 15c LE, is there any chance of seeing a basic RPN calculator for HP? It's difficult to justify the high price of the 15C LE to someone who needs a basic scientific calculator. For instance, I've seen the Casio fx-260 being sold (http://www.casio.com/products/Calculators_%26_Dictionaries/Scientific_%26_Financial/FX-260Solar/) on most CUNY college campuses and it does suffice for things like general chemistry. Though, it was a lot easier working out calculations after getting a used RPN (hp 48g) that with an algebraic. But teaching and expounding on the benefits of RPN to a calc or math newbie and then having to recommend a $89 HP calc for them to use is a major fail on HP's part. Why isn't there a simple RPN scientific from HP as a gateway drug to other RPN calcs in HP's line? P.S. The fx-260 fits nicely in my paramedic work shirt pocket with room to spare for my protocol notes. The HP 15c, alas, does not. A small, basic RPN scientific shirt pocket calc sure would be nice... Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 7:17 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #2 Posted by Chris McCormack on 16 Sept 2011, 8:59 a.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis A simple calculator would be nice. My high school sophomore was told he couldn't have a programmable calculator for the exams. That disqualifies the HP11C, HP15C, HP33S, HP35S, HP49G, HP49G+, and HP50G he could have used! (Of course, I suspect if the teacher was pressed the non-graphical models would be allowed.)

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #3 Posted by Paul Guertin on 17 Sept 2011, 1:16 a.m., in response to message #2 by Chris McCormack Quote: Of course, I suspect if the teacher was pressed the non-graphical models would be allowed. In my introductory calculus class, I explicitly allow programmable, non-graphing calculators. Only a very small minority of students ever bother. I regularly impress students by showing them how their calculator can convert fractional hours to hours:min:sec, or even how to store a number in memory instead of writing it down on paper and typing it in again later. No kidding, a lot of them really do that, and they fight you tooth and nail when you try to teach them about "STO" and "RCL".

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #4 Posted by Jurrie Lulofs on 16 Sept 2011, 9:02 a.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis I believe they thought the 35s would fill that role. Unfortunately, it has not gone over well (for various reasons) with long time HP users. The best/easiest bet appears to be if HP were to put a 32sII or 42s (functionality wise) in the current 30b form factor. This is the calculator that is the basis for the wp34s. A somewhat nicer, expanded, display and a few more buttons would be nice... but the 30b hardware is there today which just leaves some programming and a new faceplate/buttons.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #5 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 9:20 a.m., in response to message #4 by Jurrie Lulofs Quote: I believe they thought the 35s would fill that role. Unfortunately, it has not gone over well (for various reasons) with long time HP users. The best/easiest bet appears to be if HP were to put a 32sII or 42s (functionality wise) in the current 30b form factor. This is the calculator that is the basis for the wp34s. A somewhat nicer, expanded, display and a few more buttons would be nice... but the 30b hardware is there today which just leaves some programming and a new faceplate/buttons. What I'm trying to say is that there is no *basic* RPN scientific calc from HP. More basic than the 35s, 32s or 42s. Basic and inexpensive. Inexpensive for the high school kids and college kids on a budget. Inexpensive enough for them to give RPN a try. See, now when I explain to someone (which I occasionally do) in detail why RPN exists, why it matters even for basic algebra and why it's the better way to go, the person that might want to try RPN only has 2 options. A 50 dollar HP 35s or a ~90 dollar HP 15c LE. Also, for people I truly care about, I would spend the 12 to 20 bucks if a basic RPN was available at that price and give it to them. Give it to them and spend a couple of minutes showing them the elegance of RPN. My frustration mirrors this gentleman's angst if you replaced the iPhone with any TI/Casio/Sharp and the Nokia with a RPN HP: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Some profanity in the above link. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 5:59 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #6 Posted by Miguel Toro on 16 Sept 2011, 9:30 a.m., in response to message #5 by nick lidakis Hi, What about the 20b. Well, I know...the keyboard, but it is not programmable and it has a good set of math functions. My daughter has one as a backup in her locker, in the event that she forgets her 35s at home, something that happens oh so frequently :-). Miguel

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #7 Posted by Jurrie Lulofs on 16 Sept 2011, 9:46 a.m., in response to message #6 by Miguel Toro I was going to suggest the same thing. Actually, there's something better.... the 30b. It's only $24 from Amazon. This is what I'm using for my wp34s. Amazon HP-30B for $23.95

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #8 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 9:51 a.m., in response to message #6 by Miguel Toro Isn't this (HP 20b) a financial calculator? I see, from the photo on HP's site, that the basic functions on the keys are financial related. And, at $40 (even at Amazon) can you say that it competes with a Casio fx-260 ($11) or fx-300 ($12-$15)? Casio fx-260: Slide cover. Dimensions: 5.25" L x 3" W x 3/4" D It's small, lightweight, inexpensive and designed as a basic scientific. Like this. But RPN. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 10:04 a.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #9 Posted by Miguel Toro on 16 Sept 2011, 10:22 a.m., in response to message #8 by nick lidakis See the manual here (pages 6 and 16), to have a look of the Math library and the functions that you can reach directly from the keyboard. the features seem comparable and you can find the 20b cheap enough on TAS. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 10:23 a.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #10 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 10:47 a.m., in response to message #9 by Miguel Toro Quote: See the manual here (pages 6 and 16), to have a look of the Math library and the functions that you can reach directly from the keyboard. the features seem comparable and you can find the 20b cheap enough on TAS. "I wanna show you this cool way of doing math with a scientific using a method called RPN, --but err, could you go win an auction on eBay first? Umm, I mean TAS; the geeks on HP Calc forum don't like people saying "eBay". They says God kills a kitten and and a RPN calculator when you say that... Ok, now... Wait, don't mind that it says Financial Calculator /cough/ on the label here--, so where was I? Oh, yes, RPN. Okay, but before we get started, we have to read page 6 and 16 to learn the "scientific functions" on this "financial calculator" so you don't get confused by all the labels on the face of the calculator before we... Hey, wait! Where are you going? Wait! Sweetheart, I didn't get a chance to show you my stack!! Umm, well, I guess I'll go update my Debian box using apt or shake my 4 HP 15c LE calculators (AGAIN) and make sure the f and g keys aren't rattling. /mumbling to self/ I told HP that if they discontinue the 15c again or take my red stapler I'm going to burn the building down..." I kid! I kid! Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 10:51 a.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #11 Posted by Miguel Toro on 16 Sept 2011, 12:41 p.m., in response to message #10 by nick lidakis Quote: But teaching and expounding on the benefits of RPN to a calc or math newbie and then having to recommend a $89 HP calc for them to use is a major fail on HP's part. I just was answering to your question about a simpler, less costly HP RPN calculator with scientific capabilities. I gave you a suggestion that covers all those "requirements". there is even a better version (30b) that cost even less in amazon. Well, I was just trying to help. I think there is no need to mock.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #12 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 1:12 p.m., in response to message #11 by Miguel Toro I apologize. My intent was not to mock. Honestly, I was just making a joke, and not at your expense. I was trying to highlight, with some (maybe not so funny) humor what I fantasized would happen in trying to introduce someone to RPN via the financial calc route. The point is, HP doesn't have a basic, inexpensive, introductory RPN calc for the uninitiated. The student/person who hears about RPN and then checks HP's website will probably not check the Financial Calc section for a Scientific Calculator. Or scout through forums when they should be doing homework. Or looking through the PDF manuals of the 20b to figure out the scientific functions. Again, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my humor. But you seemed to have misunderstood what I was getting at: Getting more RPN calculators in the hands of people who start using calculators would probably make them more long term users of RPN calcs in general. You can do that by offering the uninitiated a decently priced basic scientific calc that is *labeled* as such and *advertised* as such and put under the URL link called Scientific Calculator. Something like the HP 10s (as someone else noted) available in RPN to help whet the appetite. Get them while they're young. P.S. I came across RPN by accident when I took my first chemistry class at a CUNY college. The professor said (to save us money) that the fx-260 was all the calc that we needed; no fancy TI graphing calcs need apply. So I got one for $12. But I hated the mushy keys and that fact that I had to right down intermediate results or use memory. When I got my hands on a used 48g for $20 via craigslist, I realized just how much easier it was to do messy, multi-stepped chem problems with RPN and a stack in about 10 minutes flat. So, I find it strange that HP has no RPN calc in the same vein as the casio fx-260 or the like.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #13 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 16 Sept 2011, 2:05 p.m., in response to message #12 by nick lidakis Quote: Getting more RPN calculators in the hands of people who start using calculators would probably make them more long term users of RPN calcs in general... One wonders why they would even be interested... Remember, this group is not typical. I believe most of the world these days would expect calculators to use an algebraic model.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #14 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 6:39 p.m., in response to message #13 by Martin Pinckney Quote: One wonders why they would even be interested... Remember, this group is not typical. I believe most of the world these days would expect calculators to use an algebraic model. Words like that are kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy, no? The group that uses RPN will never get bigger if there isn't a low barrier to entry to bring in new blood. My soon to be wife has this crazy idea that our soon to be son will be some kinda physicist. My soon to be nephew in law of 7 years has already asked that I bring back my Icom 730 HF transceiver so that he can hear morse code and SSB transmissions, in addition to being excited about the model rocket he's expecting. So, 2 of the 4 HP 15C LE I purchased are going into the safe deposit box (sans batteries) for future use by future evil geniuses. I am 1/10th the geek of most people here, in regards to the math that is discussed here. Does that make me even more atypical? Is my logic skewed for not understanding why HP doesn't offer a basic scientific calc as an upgrade path to more profitable RPN models? Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 7:16 p.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #15 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 16 Sept 2011, 9:22 p.m., in response to message #14 by nick lidakis Quote: Words like that are kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy, no? The group that uses RPN will never get bigger if there isn't a low barrier to entry to bring in new blood. ... Is my logic skewed for not understanding why HP doesn't offer a basic scientific calc as an upgrade path to more profitable RPN models? You're just about 10-20 years late, that's all. After HP curtailed, then dropped the Pioneers, original 48 series, things started going downhill rapidly.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #16 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 9:46 p.m., in response to message #15 by Martin Pinckney Quote: You're just about 10-20 years late, that's all. After HP curtailed, then dropped the Pioneers, original 48 series, things started going downhill rapidly. :/

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #17 Posted by Don Davis on 16 Sept 2011, 3:20 p.m., in response to message #12 by nick lidakis Quote: I apologize. My intent was not to mock. Honestly, I was just making a joke, and not at your expense. Pretty funny actually. And not too far off from what would happen if I tried to move the typical university student away from a Casio to HP...

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #18 Posted by Jurrie Lulofs on 16 Sept 2011, 10:32 a.m., in response to message #8 by nick lidakis Oops... missed the "scientific" part of your request. My brain only registered "basic RPN". An RPN version of the 10s or 300s would be it. The 33s/35s are the lowest end RPN calculators that I could find.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #19 Posted by Pal G. on 16 Sept 2011, 11:01 a.m., in response to message #8 by nick lidakis Nick, do you own a Voyager series calculator? Have you tried putting one in your pocket? You wrote: Quote: .. The fx-260 fits nicely in my paramedic work shirt pocket with room to spare for my protocol notes. The HP 15c, alas, does not. How come? 15C: 5.07" x 3.11" x 0.60" fx-260: 5.25" x 3.00" x 0.75" Just wondering.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #20 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 6:51 p.m., in response to message #19 by Pal G. Quote: Nick, do you own a Voyager series calculator? Have you tried putting one in your pocket? You wrote: How come? 15C: 5.07" x 3.11" x 0.60" fx-260: 5.25" x 3.00" x 0.75" Just wondering. Pal, The HP 15c LE fits in the work pocket of my current shirt without the pen sleeve stitching. I can't even jam it in the other pocket. But this is all really a small pet peeve. I'd still like to see a *basic* RPN calc offered for under $30 bucks. Thinking about this more after the release of the 15c LE, it just doesn't make sense that an introductory RPN calc isn't offered.It makes less sense that HP doesn't tout/advertise the benefits of their RPN calcs more that the 2 web pages offered on their website. Perhaps the RPN groupies can come with a slogan that can be put on t-shirts or stickers? Something like this: "Let *me* tell you about RPN because HP is too busy _______" But I would need help filling in the blank. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 7:08 p.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #21 Posted by Kiyoshi Akima on 16 Sept 2011, 7:33 p.m., in response to message #20 by nick lidakis Back in the 70s there was a t-shirt that said "ENTER > =" (with a double-wide ENTER key, of course). I think I still have one in a closet at home.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #22 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 8:02 p.m., in response to message #21 by Kiyoshi Akima Quote: Back in the 70s there was a t-shirt that said "ENTER > =" (with a double-wide ENTER key, of course). I think I still have one in a closet at home. Was this a HP t-shirt? Can you elaborate a bit?

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #23 Posted by Kiyoshi Akima on 17 Sept 2011, 4:10 p.m., in response to message #22 by nick lidakis As far as I know, HP was never in the shirt business. I believe these shirts did have the HP logo on them somewhere, and they were available at university campus bookstores, so I assumed they were part of an HP marketing campaign.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #24 Posted by Jake Schwartz on 17 Sept 2011, 7:29 p.m., in response to message #22 by nick lidakis Perhaps that's the one Gary Tenzer was wearing at the Great Wall on the cover of the V3N1 HP Key Notes: [img:http://www.pahhc.org/2011/ENTER greater equals.jpg] Jake

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #25 Posted by Jake Schwartz on 17 Sept 2011, 7:30 p.m., in response to message #24 by Jake Schwartz Let's try this again:

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #26 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 16 Sept 2011, 10:57 p.m., in response to message #20 by nick lidakis ..or the old "HP has no Equal" could become "RPN has no Equal"

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #27 Posted by robert rozee on 16 Sept 2011, 1:05 p.m., in response to message #8 by nick lidakis would this model fill the bill?

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #28 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 1:16 p.m., in response to message #27 by robert rozee Quote: would this model fill the bill? Hell yes. If they could sell it for 15 to 25 bucks. Isn't that a HP 10c?

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #29 Posted by robert rozee on 16 Sept 2011, 2:11 p.m., in response to message #28 by nick lidakis it's a 10C with the programmability removed - count the keys across and you'll see one column has been deleted. the non-programming functions on that column have been distributed onto other keys ( ->R and ->P placed above divide and multiply, square root moved to below e^x). the display hasn't been moved across because the space to the right is still needed for the 2x 2032 batteries. at the same time i also re-engineered the key frame so the f key is co-moulded in with the rest of the keys to prevent wobble. and there is space above the % and R-down keys for two more functions if anyone wishes.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #30 Posted by Eric Smith on 18 Sept 2011, 3:04 p.m., in response to message #29 by robert rozee Quote: i also re-engineered the key frame so the f key is co-moulded in with the rest of the keys to prevent wobble How did you accomplish that?

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #31 Posted by robert rozee on 18 Sept 2011, 3:48 p.m., in response to message #30 by Eric Smith Quote: How did you accomplish that? [chuckles] i wondered if anyone would notice that... using the same virtual factory that manufactured the calculator pictured - of course! btw, i have seen keyframes with different coloured plastics for some keys in real life. takes a little ingenuity, but certainly far from impossible. i'd have thought HP would be able to do it with ease.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #32 Posted by Howard Owen on 18 Sept 2011, 3:41 p.m., in response to message #29 by robert rozee Quote: ... the display hasn't been moved across because the space to the right is still needed for the 2x 2032 batteries. The battery compartment on the 15C LE overlaps (underlaps?) the display.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #33 Posted by Ed Look on 16 Sept 2011, 1:33 p.m., in response to message #27 by robert rozee Do any of you guys remember or have heard of or have seen the old (Spice series) HP-31E or 32E? They were basic scientific NONprogrammable calculators, the latter with statistical functions. I think these would make excellent calculators for late middle/junior high, most of high school students, and many college students that have to deal with science courses. (Unfortunately for hard science majors) They had no continuous memory, but that would make them good for many exams, including stuff like SATs, engineering licensing exams, etc. They are like the (Voyager series) HP-10C and HP-11C, but portrait layout instead of landscape and nonprogrammable. If HP could come up with inexpensive RPN calcs that did what any of these did, say, one with and one without continuous memory, it may begin to eat into TI's, Casio's student markets. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 1:33 p.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #34 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 16 Sept 2011, 1:42 p.m., in response to message #33 by Ed Look Quote: Do any of you guys remember or have heard of or have seen the old (Spice series) HP-31E or 32E? You're kidding, right? Has Dr. Phil ever heard of neuroses?

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #35 Posted by Masaki Adachi on 16 Sept 2011, 2:13 p.m., in response to message #8 by nick lidakis Basic RPN calculators Chip in the Casio FX is probably a dedicated calculator chip that is used in bulk. Most of the newer HP calclator is run by Arm processor. Economy of scale will also affect the cost of LCD and keypads. so as long as HP sticks to current way of designing RPN calculators, I dont see anyway of making the RPN machine with sub $10 price range. HP-10s to me looks like re-badged Sharp or Casio. So here is my proposal to HP if they are interested in striking back into mass calculator business. Take 33S, redo the keyboard graphics so there is no hint of programmability on the front face, remove manual and case from the package and add a folded sheet of paper that only describe the basics of RPN, repackage and sell them for less than $20 each. I blieve the tool and development cost for the 33s is already paid for. its probably a doable pricing.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #36 Posted by Tim Wessman on 16 Sept 2011, 2:58 p.m., in response to message #35 by Masaki Adachi >sell them for less than $20 each Giggle. >tool and development cost for the 33s is already paid for You mean not done by us, nor do we have any of the tools, nor ability to develop of modify any existing code on the sunplus chips. . . TW

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #37 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 16 Sept 2011, 4:24 p.m., in response to message #36 by Tim Wessman OK, then, just issue a 10c LE. You should have the ROM image. We'll even pay a little more than $20!

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #38 Posted by gene wright on 16 Sept 2011, 5:04 p.m., in response to message #37 by Martin Pinckney Ah, but keys would have to be redone. Production line time would have to be scheduled. Line switchovers would have to be paid for. Approvals sought..."Why should we do this? How many will we sell? What will you not work on while this is being debugged? What will not be worked on while suppliers will be worked into this picture...etc." If the $$ is not high enough (no idea what $$ that is), then management will likely not put resources on it because they have higher absolute $$ projects to put people to work on. Not to mention... the time this takes is time not spent on the 67CXi model. Besides, there is no need at all for the 10C if the 15c is out. (But I for one really would like a cheap RPN calculator...in addition to the 20b/30b which are the cheapest RPN models out).

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #39 Posted by Jeroen Van Nieuwenhove on 16 Sept 2011, 6:49 p.m., in response to message #38 by gene wright Quote: Besides, there is no need at all for the 10C if the 15c is out. That. Furthermore: it will be impossible for HP to make any profit from a 10C that would sell around $20. Even assuming that the production/marketing costs are less than that, you would need to sell a staggering amount of these calcs to make any profit. Also: if your objective is promoting RPN among youngsters, you really should be promoting free RPN calc apps for smartphones (and quite a few good ones already exist, like Free42). THAT is the way to showcase RPN to youngsters.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #40 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 7:01 p.m., in response to message #39 by Jeroen Van Nieuwenhove Quote: That. Furthermore: it will be impossible for HP to make any profit from a 10C that would sell around $20. Even assuming that the production/marketing costs are less than that, you would need to sell a staggering amount of these calcs to make any profit. Also: if your objective is promoting RPN among youngsters, you really should be promoting free RPN calc apps for smartphones (and quite a few good ones already exist, like Free42). THAT is the way to showcase RPN to youngsters. Yes (emphatically), I agree about the economics of reintroducing a 10c. No. (politely) Smart-phones can't be used during exams. Phones can be a distraction to some. The downsides of smart-phones (battery life, back light annoyance, etc.) have been mentioned here before (I lurk). Also, don't assume every "young" person even wants or expects smart-phone.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #41 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 16 Sept 2011, 9:25 p.m., in response to message #40 by nick lidakis Guys, before this thread gets too too long, my comment about the 10c was made tongue-in-cheek.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #42 Posted by Jurrie Lulofs on 16 Sept 2011, 5:45 p.m., in response to message #36 by Tim Wessman One would hope that a scientific version of the 20b/30b would be possible. Of course, a 30s would be competing with the 35s which is probably not feasible from a product placement standpoint. Oh well. Generating a simpler version of the wp34s would be fine, but that doesn't help the desire of some here to see such a product readily available in stores. Then again, enlightening those around us is better than nothing at all. We're all just guessing here. I'm sure it's a tough market when such a product competes with $10-$15 (nearly) disposables. We don't know how many would sell at a $25-$35 price point. Some (many?) here are just frustrated that there isn't such an option. Even the 35s could be OK if they were done "right".

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #43 Posted by Bart (UK) on 16 Sept 2011, 9:51 a.m., in response to message #5 by nick lidakis Yes, I agree. Something like the current HP-10s but RPN. PS I am a Nokia fan also. Found a basic RPN calc app for my N8, has the functionality of the original HP-35, but with a 17-level stack. Perfect for quick calculations.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #44 Posted by Tommy on 16 Sept 2011, 12:25 p.m., in response to message #5 by nick lidakis I fully agree! I would like to see a cheap, reliable, basic scientific RPN calculator.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #45 Posted by Crawl on 16 Sept 2011, 10:07 a.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis I'd consider getting that Casio if only it had 2 variables statistics with linear regression. It's been on the shelves for a LONG time. Years, at least. It's had surprising longevity for a "cheap" calculator.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #46 Posted by Paul Gaster on 16 Sept 2011, 10:25 a.m., in response to message #45 by Crawl There is a reason it has been produced for so long. It is the only calculator allowed for use on GED tests. http://www.passged.com/articles/21_The_GED_Math_Test_Know_the_Calculator.php

Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #47 Posted by Håkan Thörngren on 16 Sept 2011, 2:25 p.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis Please bring the HP-10C back, it is a wonderful small simple RPN instrument that will fit my daily hand calculation needs nicely.

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #48 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 16 Sept 2011, 2:42 p.m., in response to message #47 by Håkan Thörngren It would cost the same amount to replicate it as the HP 15C LE, and gain you nothing in ease of use. Same primary key functions and same shifted key functions. I see no advantage in this at all.

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #49 Posted by Håkan Thörngren on 16 Sept 2011, 4:40 p.m., in response to message #48 by Michael de Estrada Less cluttered keyboard and half the rattle? :) I am hoping it could sell for a lower price, and for basic daily calculations it should be fine enough. The 10C is less intimidating than a 15C, and for doing more advanced things I would pick up a 41 or a 48.

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #50 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 16 Sept 2011, 5:06 p.m., in response to message #49 by Håkan Thörngren What rattle ? Mine doesn't. As to clutter, since the shifted functions are above and below, there really is no added clutter. I really don't agree with you that it would somehow be "less intimidating." And I don't see how it could be much cheaper either. When HP brought out the original HP 10C it was an attempt to capture market that was lost by the very expensive HP 15C, and I'm certain it cost them in profits to do so. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 5:32 p.m.

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #51 Posted by uhmgawa on 16 Sept 2011, 6:45 p.m., in response to message #50 by Michael de Estrada Quote: And I don't see how it could be much cheaper either. When HP brought out the original HP 10C it was an attempt to capture market that was lost by the very expensive HP 15C, and I'm certain it cost them in profits to do so. The only resource difference between the 10c and 15c is the 10c has half of the ROM footprint and half the RWM requirement of the 15c. In round numbers that's a difference of under 8KB ROM and 256B RWM -- essentially in the noise cost wise by today's standards. And if for some reason that somehow was a concern I'd opt for the 11c instead which can live within the same budget. Disclaimer: I don't own a 10c nor have examined a rom image so the portion of ROM actually used in the 10c r2d2 may be considerably less than its actual capacity. It is a wild guess but I don't think I'd be too far off to suspect the manufacturing cost difference of a legacy 15c vs. any other voyager model to have been about US$1-2. Edited: 16 Sept 2011, 6:50 p.m.

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #52 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 16 Sept 2011, 6:52 p.m., in response to message #51 by uhmgawa About the only way I could see some savings would be to eliminate the printed manual and fancy gift box as they now do with the HP 35s. Also, it would take less time to do the initial programming and manual preparation for the CD.

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #53 Posted by nick lidakis on 16 Sept 2011, 7:05 p.m., in response to message #52 by Michael de Estrada Quote: About the only way I could see some savings would be to eliminate the printed manual and fancy gift box as they now do with the HP 35s. Also, it would take less time to do the initial programming and manual preparation for the CD. This. Eco cardboard? Simple one page compostable instruction sheet and packaging?

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #54 Posted by Jeroen Van Nieuwenhove on 16 Sept 2011, 7:02 p.m., in response to message #51 by uhmgawa That is true, but sometimes it pays to simply "dumb down" an existing model and sell it at a lower price, even if the manufacturing costs are the same. Everything depends on your profit margin. But, of course, in the case of the 10C, this strategy did not work. There's a reason why these calcs are so rare ;-)

Re: Yes, I want the HP-10C back Message #55 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 16 Sept 2011, 7:27 p.m., in response to message #54 by Jeroen Van Nieuwenhove Same could be said for the HP 31E, 37E and 70. In any case today's maket would not support a "dumbed down" Voyager at any price, and the 15C market is largely legacy. The basic features of the HP 15C LE are just as easy to access and use as the 10C.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #56 Posted by Paul Dale on 16 Sept 2011, 7:44 p.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis A scientific 4-banger using RPN was tossed around as an idea here a few years back. If something like this were available, I'd buy plenty. By adding a single shift key, amazing amounts of functionality can be put into a twenty key device. There were designs with lots of scientific functions and others that were programmable... - Pauli

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #57 Posted by Paul Guertin on 17 Sept 2011, 1:22 a.m., in response to message #56 by Paul Dale Quote: A scientific 4-banger using RPN was tossed around as an idea here a few years back. Here is the archive of that thread from 2007: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv017.cgi?read=116869

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #58 Posted by Paul Dale on 17 Sept 2011, 1:38 a.m., in response to message #57 by Paul Guertin That's the one! - Pauli

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #59 Posted by Jurrie Lulofs on 17 Sept 2011, 9:47 a.m., in response to message #57 by Paul Guertin Here's the proposed model (The 4 Banger+, aka 4sII) that was most heavily discussed: There were comments about it having too many shifted combinations. It would be good to see that level of functionality running on 20b/30b hardware. The hardware has more keys than the proposed model so one would hope for fewer awkward shifted key combinations. Imagine if HP were to produce a 30b with replaceable keycaps (these would snap on over a smaller base key mechanism). You could get dummy caps and print/paint them, or use clear caps with printed inserts. Although not possible with the current design, if the bezel included slots at the top & bottom to facilitate overlays you'd have a truly "re-purposable" calculator.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #60 Posted by robert rozee on 17 Sept 2011, 10:56 a.m., in response to message #59 by Jurrie Lulofs absolutely beautiful - lets build it!! and can we make the case just 2" wide? btw, you can put pi onto the EEX key (like casio do): if EEX is pressed while entering a number it performs as expected, if pressed prior to starting number entry it produces pi.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #61 Posted by C.Ret on 18 Sept 2011, 9:15 a.m., in response to message #59 by Jurrie Lulofs Here is another propostion ā la HP-10c : Note that : - The HP logo is the ON/OFF switch, auto power OFF still exist, - The Shift+CHS produce an INV fonction which invert next fonction. This make possible sin-1, cos-1 and tan-1 function, as well as Rdown or RCL operations, etc. Despite classic HP-10c or 15c, which are limited to only fit one calculator per pocket, this half-size landscape model allow you to store two calculators per shirt pocket. This is the greatest advantage of this new concept.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #62 Posted by Howard Owen on 18 Sept 2011, 11:41 a.m., in response to message #61 by C.Ret Some of my reactions: This thing looks too small and crowded for comfortable operation in my clumsy hands I'd switch INV to primary and CHS to shifted. Given the importance of the INV key, it's likely it would be used much more frequently. I would make X<>Y primary and EEX shifted, just because X<>Y is primary on every classic RPN HP calculator, and my brain refuses to accept any other arrangement, :) Along the same lines, I would make the shifted R^ a shifted Rv. On the classic calcs, Rv was on a primary key and R^ was a shifted function. Did I mention this layout looks hopelessly cluttered and non-ergonomic?

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #63 Posted by uhmgawa on 18 Sept 2011, 11:42 p.m., in response to message #62 by Howard Owen Quote: Did I mention this layout looks hopelessly cluttered and non-ergonomic? I'd have to agree. Also I think if that display became reality it would have potential users screaming into their pillow. If what you really want is a scientific voyager with that in-pocket footprint, why not size the display to the full 10.5 digits and use the original 15c key layout & pitch but in a clamshell format? Downgrading functionality to a 10c or even 11c doesn't really buy you anything significant.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #64 Posted by C.Ret on 19 Sept 2011, 4:53 a.m., in response to message #63 by uhmgawa Agree, to avoid any cluter display and keyboard, I propose a larger display and removing shift and INV key. Following the first HP 4 banger which two fit in one shirt pocket: having two calc in one pocket double power for computation. With a litte training, one can use both hands, each on one of these HP 4-bangers:

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #65 Posted by Paul Dale on 19 Sept 2011, 5:00 a.m., in response to message #64 by C.Ret At least give us an x<>y or Rv key.... Unless this device is going to have a two level stack :) - Pauli

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #66 Posted by C.Ret on 19 Sept 2011, 9:10 a.m., in response to message #65 by Paul Dale That's true, I have to add the [x><y] exchange key, since as any HP calculator this compact version have at least 4 levels of stack. But no LAST register. This is perhaps a problem because if one user misskey a value, he have to start his computation from start. Perhaps, is this design not optimal. I may have better to add one colum of keys for ON/OFF and stack manipulations. Edited: 19 Sept 2011, 9:31 a.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #67 Posted by Walter B on 19 Sept 2011, 4:01 p.m., in response to message #66 by C.Ret You must admit layouting calculators is some fun, isn't it? :-)

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #68 Posted by Howard Owen on 19 Sept 2011, 6:12 p.m., in response to message #67 by Walter B Quote: You must admit layouting calculators is some fun, isn't it? :-) I wonder where you got that impression? :)

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #69 Posted by Howard Owen on 19 Sept 2011, 5:37 a.m., in response to message #64 by C.Ret Quote: ... having two calc in one pocket double power for computation. LOL! Pretty slow memory bus between those two processors. :)

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #70 Posted by C.Ret on 19 Sept 2011, 11:47 a.m., in response to message #69 by Howard Owen Yes :-) It's the HP's dual-core system. And no stack will be stack due to cascading process or services ! The true dual HP-calculator cores; - one HP-15c LE at right hand (faster at right), - one HP-15c original at left hand (I am not as fast on left hand). (Note that gooffy peoples may surf on the true dual-core HP calculator system the opposite way whith no loss of power, if for any reason they prefer speed at left hand. Edited: 19 Sept 2011, 11:48 a.m.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #71 Posted by Eric Smith on 18 Sept 2011, 3:02 p.m., in response to message #61 by C.Ret I'd rather store just one calculator per shirt pocket.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #72 Posted by Eddie W. Shore on 16 Sept 2011, 9:03 p.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis Yes. Maybe a re-release of the 1970's 21 or 25, only solar powered with statistics.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #73 Posted by Dominic Richens on 17 Sept 2011, 12:12 a.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis <fantasy> It would be cool if HP just sold just 1 or 2 calculators - say a 20b (cheap and mass produced) and 30b (better physical design for a premium) - with the a USB cable, sticky overlays and a CD-ROM with different firmwares that you can burn it with: - basic scientific/statistics - business/finance - programmable scientific - do everything calculator or perhaps with all 4 FW already in flash and you just pick which one from a mode menu and put the appropriate overlay on it. </fantasy> I've been using a wp-34S emulator while I wait for my HP-20B to arrive in the mail and already I'm thinking about how I'd like to re-do some of it. Probably push more stuff to menus (stats) to eliminate 1 or 2 shift keys and get sin/cos/tan back as un-shifted keys.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #74 Posted by Paul Dale on 17 Sept 2011, 1:38 a.m., in response to message #73 by Dominic Richens Quote: Probably push more stuff to menus (stats) to eliminate 1 or 2 shift keys and get sin/cos/tan back as un-shifted keys. Feel free to modify the sources and submit patches ;-) Have fun getting sin/cos/tan at the top level and in a row. We dropped that idea quite early. If the hot-keys disappear, it would be possible. There really isn't much on the un-shifted plane that doesn't demand to be there. Removing a shift key or even two wouldn't be too difficult, the catalogues are quite functional now -- they were less so when originally devised. Regardless, have fun. - Pauli

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #75 Posted by Dominic Richens on 17 Sept 2011, 8:03 a.m., in response to message #74 by Paul Dale Quote: Feel free to modify the sources and submit patches ;-) What tool-chain are you using? I see reference in the source to Sorcery G++ (free "Lite" version) and MinGW, but I also see references to Eclipse and MS Visual C++, which I assume is needed to build the emulator? Sorry if there is an article already describing this - I find the forum search a little flaky (date constraint only goes up to 2010!)

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #76 Posted by Walter B on 17 Sept 2011, 3:11 a.m., in response to message #73 by Dominic Richens I'm looking forward to your design. Though I won't hold my breath ;-)

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #77 Posted by Michael Kussmaul on 17 Sept 2011, 8:07 a.m., in response to message #1 by nick lidakis I know, to make volume, a calculator these days has to be tailored to education/school - as they probably buy plenty... But I'm wondering, what about all those engineers out there? Is there no market for those professionals? My dream calculator would be like this: Tailored for engineering professionals, who like to have a quality calculator small and thin (aka 15c but thinner, or 42s) alway with me in shirt or pocket two line dot-matrix display should be programmable, it would be sufficient to program on computer and store programs over to calculator, so I could use them for my daily work - e.g. To calculate basic values in a meeting no graphics capability (if I need that, I can use my computer) no symbolic calculation (same here: if needed I use Mathematica or such) it does not need to be cheap, I'm happy to pay $200/$300 if quality is right.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #78 Posted by Michael de Estrada on 17 Sept 2011, 8:21 a.m., in response to message #77 by Michael Kussmaul I bought a very nice HP 42s with spiral bound printed manual on TAS for circa $200. Problem solved.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #79 Posted by Michael Kussmaul on 17 Sept 2011, 8:56 a.m., in response to message #78 by Michael de Estrada I like the 42s too (I don't have one) - but it's 20 years old... there should be a more modern one, one which can connect to my computer to transfer programs (or "Apps" as you would probably called it nowadays :-) And it's still too thick&heavy, half of it would be nice.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #80 Posted by John Noble on 17 Sept 2011, 1:11 p.m., in response to message #79 by Michael Kussmaul there should be a more modern one, one which can connect to my computer to transfer programs Indeed. MicroSD would be cool, actually, and please tell "them" to make the programming language a simple script-like deal that any goof with a text editor can hack. In the meantime, I really like my 35S. It's dedicated to some astronomy programs I wrote, and it fills that role far better than a smartphone ever could: no backlight to kill dark adaptation and it works great with gloves. If it had a reasonably accurate clock and the means to push the time and date into the stack I'd be overjoyed.

Re: After the 15c LE, better chance of a basic RPN calc from HP now? Message #81 Posted by snaggs on 18 Sept 2011, 8:15 a.m., in response to message #77 by Michael Kussmaul The 35s really is good, only using the 42s makes you realise theres that last level of polish missing.. However, the 42s was the peak of the Pioneer line. Given the 35s is approved for surveyor exams, it will get updated, and version 2 has little to fix. Also, whats good for engineers is good for maths students, as most applied maths is engineering. Daniel. Ps. Theres also lots of 35s programs on the net. Quote: I know, to make volume, a calculator these days has to be tailored to education/school - as they probably buy plenty... But I'm wondering, what about all those engineers out there? Is there no market for those professionals? My dream calculator would be like this: Tailored for engineering professionals, who like to have a quality calculator small and thin (aka 15c but thinner, or 42s) alway with me in shirt or pocket two line dot-matrix display should be programmable, it would be sufficient to program on computer and store programs over to calculator, so I could use them for my daily work - e.g. To calculate basic values in a meeting no graphics capability (if I need that, I can use my computer) no symbolic calculation (same here: if needed I use Mathematica or such) it does not need to be cheap, I'm happy to pay $200/$300 if quality is right.

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