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42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #1 Posted by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary) on 30 Jan 2011, 3:07 p.m.

I'm just wondering: is it possible to uploading 42S ROM into a HP17BII? Or 17BII ROM is replacable with 42S ROM if we changing their ROM-chip or uses a burned EPROM?

Edited: 31 Jan 2011, 9:22 a.m. after one or more responses were posted

      
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #2 Posted by Mark Harman on 30 Jan 2011, 4:26 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary)

It is not possible. The 17bII and 17bII+ do not have a flashable ROM or even a means of transferring data electronically into the unit. There is no I/O except for an infrared transmitter that only transmits data to an HP 82240B Printer.

Regards,

Mark

Edited: 30 Jan 2011, 4:26 p.m.

            
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #3 Posted by Tim Wessman on 30 Jan 2011, 5:56 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Mark Harman

The hardware/cpu in the 17bII+ is completely different. Wouldn't run even if you got it in there.

TW

                  
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #4 Posted by Mark Harman on 30 Jan 2011, 8:24 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Tim Wessman

Yes. This too...

                  
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #5 Posted by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary) on 31 Jan 2011, 4:09 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by Tim Wessman

I have no data about types of CPU in the two unit, but on the finseth data base the two model seems to me same, with different ROM (the LCD, CPU (Lewis chip), memory, ... same).

I found an article here about the 42S:

I never opened a HP-42S, but from was I read in some posts, I think that there is a place for a second ROM. It's true for the HP17BII which have the same hardware, and it is how HP managed the two HP17BII versions (english and international with multiple languages): one common ROM and a second optionnal ROM.

I'm not a guru, but it's seems to me possible...

                        
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #6 Posted by Nacho on 31 Jan 2011, 4:34 a.m.,
in response to message #5 by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary)

Dear,

You are confused with two hardware types.

HP 17BII ( Pioneer ) = HP42S and ROM's can be swaped physically.

HP 17BII+ the golden or grey new series have nothing to do with the HP 42S as hardware is different and significantly worst.

HTH

                              
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #7 Posted by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary) on 31 Jan 2011, 6:33 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Nacho

I'm talking about HP42S and HP17BII.

About this:

And this:

                              
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #8 Posted by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary) on 31 Jan 2011, 6:40 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Nacho

...but, you're said, this is possible? Anothers said this is not possible! I feel, because this two machine is SO similar.

1.) 42S ROM is available (many emulators uses this files)
2.) Which type of ROM in this machines?
3.) Burn an EPROM
4.) Solder that EPROM
5.) Enjoy your 42S with 17BII skin

Life is simple :) :P - as I think... :P

Edited: 31 Jan 2011, 9:18 a.m.

                              
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #9 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 31 Jan 2011, 8:58 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Nacho

It's not Csaba that's confused. He stated from the beginning that he is talking about the 17bii. Others have assumed he meant 17bii+. However, he unfortunately used the word uploading, which caused some confusion on what he meant, I think. Now it seems clear he meant physically installing a new ROM chip after burning the 42s ROM onto it.

                                    
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #10 Posted by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary) on 31 Jan 2011, 9:31 a.m.,
in response to message #9 by Martin Pinckney

Yes, I'm usually in trouble with English...

                                          
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #11 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 31 Jan 2011, 10:38 a.m.,
in response to message #10 by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary)

Your English is fine. But your original question remains: can it be done?

                                          
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #12 Posted by Walter B on 31 Jan 2011, 11:55 a.m.,
in response to message #10 by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary)

Never forget: Your English is orders of magnitude better than our Hungarian! Anyway, I'm curious as well what will be the answer to your question.

                                    
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #13 Posted by Mark Harman on 31 Jan 2011, 1:12 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Martin Pinckney

I never assumed he was talking about the 17bII+. I just mentioned both so I could cover both bases.

Using a the traditional method of flashing the ROM via any method is not possible. The ROM is hard coded. This is the only situation my answer covered. I really didn't know that a replacement ROM could be installed in the 17BII. If it can, then a change is within the realm of possibility.

Unfortunately, you will have to either find a a 42S ROM laying around or you have to manufacture one. I don't know any individual who is capable of manufacturing ROMs. I am under the impression that it requires a lot of resources, which would be within the realm of a chip manufacturer.

Regards,

Mark

Edited: 31 Jan 2011, 1:21 p.m.

                                          
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #14 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 31 Jan 2011, 1:46 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Mark Harman

I am out of school here, but nevertheless I am sure Csaba was talking about using an E(rasable)P(rogrammable)ROM, which is supposed to be DIY with a simple kit. So it would seem one would only need an EPROM of the right form factor, compatible energy demands, speed, etc., plus the 42s ROM code. Is this what you meant, Csaba?

                                                
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #15 Posted by Mark Harman on 31 Jan 2011, 1:51 p.m.,
in response to message #14 by Martin Pinckney

Ahhh... That makes sense. I didn't even consider that possibility. That would be really cool if it can be done and works.

Mark

                                                      
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #16 Posted by Randy on 31 Jan 2011, 3:18 p.m.,
in response to message #15 by Mark Harman

  1. The 42S operating system code is part of the processor die in the form of masked ROM.
  2. 42S OS ROM is 64 kb in size.
  3. The external ROM port is 8kb in size.
  4. The external rom is in a different address space than the OS.

If you need more reasons why it will not work, I might be able to think of some...

                                                            
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #17 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 2 Feb 2011, 3:45 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Randy

Looks like swapping boards is the easier way to go. Or just redesign a board from scratch. Kind of hardware Free42. ;)

Edited: 2 Feb 2011, 3:46 a.m.

      
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #18 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 2 Feb 2011, 7:07 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Csaba Tizedes (Hungary)

However, it certainly wouldn't be too difficult to build some hardware around Thomas' Free42 and pay him some licence fee.

Anyway, it wouldn't sell well. For the educational market, HP is better off with the 35s, unfortunately.

            
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #19 Posted by Walter B on 2 Feb 2011, 7:45 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by Thomas Radtke

May I remind you we did experience the fate of OpenRPN? Seems to be far easier to put some SW into existing HW than building some calculator HW for existing SW, at least that's what I have learned. And even the first isn't trivial.

                  
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #20 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 3 Feb 2011, 4:29 a.m.,
in response to message #19 by Walter B

Sure you're right, Walter. I was more thinking of HP to licence Free42, so I was offtopic in this thread :-(.

                  
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #21 Posted by Hugh Evans on 4 Feb 2011, 3:21 a.m.,
in response to message #19 by Walter B

Speaking of the devil, I'm preparing to resurrect OpenRPN. I believe I finally have the necessary facilities to bring the project to fruition. However, this time I'm planning to take baby steps that lead to some dream calculators.

                        
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #22 Posted by robert rozee on 4 Feb 2011, 11:43 a.m.,
in response to message #21 by Hugh Evans

please do start a new thread outlining your plans?

i'd be keen to see an atmel ATMEGA1284P processor used: 128k flash, 16k ram, 4k eeprom, four 8-bit i/o ports. oh, and in a DIP package, meaning 0.1" pin spacing solderable onto veroboard by just about anyone.

quite literally, a complete hardware solution could be built onto veroboard, requiring just the 1284, a matrix of switches, a 16x2 off-the-shelf LCD module and a battery pack.

                              
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #23 Posted by Hugh Evans on 4 Feb 2011, 1:03 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by robert rozee

Walter is already on the right track. My current concept is to use existing hardware, such as the 35s, and replace the PCB. At the very least we end up with complete control and customization with the lowest possible overhead costs.

                                    
Re: 42S reincarnation is possible?
Message #24 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 4 Feb 2011, 1:20 p.m.,
in response to message #23 by Hugh Evans

Quote:
My current concept is to use existing hardware, such as the 35s, and replace the PCB.
Last time it was about taking a given PCB and put it into a new case, right? ;-)

However, if you manage to write a bugfree 35s-like firmware, you'd probably have some customers. If it's about changing keyboard lables, I personally would stay away from it. That's probably more difficult than just to have some cases produced in China - inluding paint job.

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