HP Forum Archive 19

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Future Value Problem, right? Message #1 Posted by Anthony Baldwin on 25 Jan 2010, 7:45 p.m. I'm trying to understand how to approach this problem using an HP12C. Suppose you deposit $2,500 at the end of year 1, nothing at the end of year 2, $750 at the end of year 3, and $1,300 at the end of year 4. Assuming that these amounts will be compounded at an annual rate of 9 percent, how much will you have on deposit at the end of five years? When I enter CF0 as 0 n=5 I=9 CFj1 as 2500 CFj2 as 0 CFJ3 as 750 CFJ4 as 1300 CFj5 as 0 (since it in year 5 there's no mention of a deposit). Shouldn't I be able to solve for FV? I'm not getting a result (other than 0, even if I don't enter CFj5 at all). Please advise. Thanks. AB

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #2 Posted by Don Shepherd on 25 Jan 2010, 8:41 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin Anthony, I'm certainly no expert in these things, but reviewing the 12c manual, it seems that cash flows (CF0, CF1-) are related to NPV, not the TVM functions. I'd read the manual on NPV, it seems like that's what you want to use, not FV.

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #3 Posted by Dave Britten on 25 Jan 2010, 10:04 p.m., in response to message #2 by Don Shepherd After your enter your cash flows and calculate NPV, just store that value in PV and solve for FV as usual. I get -5,837.03 as expected. (Make sure PMT is 0.) Disclaimer: I majored in computer science, not finance! This approach might not work in all cases.

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #4 Posted by Peter A. Gebhardt on 25 Jan 2010, 8:53 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin Anthony, I can't resist: "At least enough money to buy an HP 17b+ ..." ;-)) Now for the serious part of my answer: Because your trusty 12c doesn't have a routine for calculating NFV directly (thats the FV counterpart in he world of irregular cash-flows), you should be able to help yourself, by calculating NFV == NPV*(1+9/100)^5 Best regards, Peter A. Gebhardt

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #5 Posted by Chuck on 25 Jan 2010, 9:20 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin Here's a possible, albeit inelegant way (I've only used the 12C about 5 times so dont know the "business" way to do it). 2500 STO 1 1.09 STO x 1 1.09 STO x 1 750 STO + 1 1.09 STO x 1 1300 STO + 1 1.09 STO x 1 RCL 1 I'm sure there's a better way. However, on the Casio 9860, put {2500, 0, 750, 1300,0} into List1, 9% into I% and press NFV; Voila. I'm still getting used to the Casio (versus HP's), but it's a pretty versatile little bugger. Chuck Edited: 25 Jan 2010, 9:22 p.m.

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #6 Posted by David Hayden on 25 Jan 2010, 9:25 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin I know barely enough finance to balance my checkbook, but it seems to me that you can calculate this one by hand. You just have to consider the deposits individually. Note that everything is deposited at the *end* of the year, so we're really talking about a 4 year span (from the end of year 1 to the end of year5). Also I'm assuming that the compounding period is 1 year. The problem states the rate, but not the compounding period. $2,500 earns 9% for 4 years. 2500*1.09^4 = 3528.95 $750 earns 9% for 2 years. 750*1.09^2 = 891.08 1300 earns 9% for 1 year. 1300*1.09 = 1417 Summing to totals gives $5837.03 at then end of 5th year. Dave

Re: Future Value Problem: what about a program to compute it? Message #7 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 25 Jan 2010, 11:01 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin Hi; some years ago I was asked about how to compute the net future value in an HP12C, as the NFV is available in almost all other financial calcs after the HP12C and with more computing power: HP18C, 19B, 17B, 19BII, 17BII, and so. (I am not sure if the HP27S has it). The solution is trivial and already mentioned: compute NPV (net present value) with the given cash flow data and apply compound interest rate to the computed NPV (as PV) given that [n] (number of periods) matches the summation of all Nj. So, after entering all cash flow data and given [i] (interest rate), the program should automatically compute NPV, store the summation of all Nj in [n] then compute [FV], thus NFV. The program computes the summation of all Nj in the stack prior to store it in [n]. Then [PMT] is set to zero prior to compute FV. Here is the listing: f [NPV] RCL [n] 0 RCL g [Nj] + RCL g [CFj] Rv RCL [n] g [x=0] g [GTO] 13 if 12C Platinum: GTO 013 Rv g [GTO] 04 if 12C PLatinum: GTO 004 + STO [n] 0 [PMT] [FV] x<>y [n] Rv CHS g GTO 00 if 12C Platinum: GTO 000 Obs: Rv - roll-down key x<>y - x exchange y key Key the program in starting at step #01, otherwise [GTO] data should be adjusted. If everything is fine, last step is #22. To compute NFV, just follow the cash flow routine to store data, key the interst rate and press [i], then press [GTO] 00 [R/S] The expected NFV should be in the display. Please, let me know if it works as expected. Cheers. Luiz (Brazil) Edited: 25 Jan 2010, 11:30 p.m.

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #8 Posted by cyrille de Brébisson on 26 Jan 2010, 9:23 a.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin hello, this is not a FV, but a NFV (Net Future Value) Problem. you can either move to a calcualtor that suports NFV, may I propose the 20 or 30b? if you are dead set on using the 12c, you can calculate the NPV (Net Present Value). then plug the NPV as PV in the TVM calculation, and use the TVM functions to calcualte FV. regards, cyrille

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #9 Posted by Eddie W. Shore on 26 Jan 2010, 9:45 a.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin I confirm with the others: enter the cash flow, compute the NPV, use the result for PV (I change signs first), then compute the FV. I used the 17BII+ (silver) to verify the results of $5,837.03.

A warning: TVM´s [FV] after entering cash flow data Message #10 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 26 Jan 2010, 1:01 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin Hi, all; just to remind that computing TVM´s [FV] as for NFV right after entering cash flow data with [CFo] and [CFj] and computing [NPV] is only valid when none of the cash flow repeats. If at least one of the cash flows has [Nj] > 1, than [n] must be adjusted prior to compute NFV with [FV]. Cheers. Luiz (Brazil) Edited: 26 Jan 2010, 8:44 p.m.

Re: Future Value Problem, right? Message #11 Posted by tony (nz) on 26 Jan 2010, 3:57 p.m., in response to message #1 by Anthony Baldwin Hi this just worked on my trusty Victor 12c clone: 0 CF0 1300 CFj 750 CFj 0 CFj 2500 CFj 9 ENTER 1.09 / CHS i NPV = 5837.029025 Should work on a genuine 12c The method is general: string the payments out in the past, so the present is future wrt the payments, and use a negative discount rate equivalent to the interest rate. Then NPV becomes NFV. Cheers Tony Edited: 26 Jan 2010, 9:25 p.m.

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