The Museum of HP Calculators

HP Forum Archive 19

 41: All that HYPe about...Message #1 Posted by 聲gel Martin on 22 Oct 2009, 8:22 a.m. Much has been written and discussed about keyboard layout and convenience of the different design choices for keystroke selection. In particular referred to the seldom-used hyperbolic functions (some more seldom than others, arguably). Here's a simple, elegant and well-though out solution to the problem: 1. have a HYP "prefix" key that supports direct and inverse functions - like in the SANDMATH module 2. assign it to SHIFT-SHIFT - so it doesn't take any extra key and still maintains the global keyboard logic. Examples: SHIFT, SHIFT, SIN = SINH SHIFT, SHIFT, SHIFT, SIN = ASINH Did I hear too many shifts? You can't have it all - it's rather fast once you get the hung of it. Tag. You're on :)

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #2 Posted by Mark Storkamp on 22 Oct 2009, 10:00 a.m.,in response to message #1 by 聲gel Martin There would have to be very clear annunciators in the display to show what state you're in, particularly with the recent quality of keyboards. Personally, I think it is too counter intuitive to be widely accepted. How about having a second shift key that can be used independently or in combination with the primary shift key. e.g.: ```Primary key [sin] is sin [Shift 1] & [sin} is asin [Shift 2] & [sin] is sinh [Shift 1] & [Shift 2] & [sin] is asinh or Primary key [ln] is ln [Shift 1] & [ln} is e^x [Shift 2] & [ln] is log [Shift 1] & [Shift 2] & [ln] is 10^x ``` Somewhat less intuitive would be grouping 1/x, sqrt, y^x and x^2 on a single key as well

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #3 Posted by Martin Pinckney on 22 Oct 2009, 10:38 a.m.,in response to message #2 by Mark Storkamp There is something to be said for the old TI way of doing things ... with the INV key that worked with any other key sequence where it made sense.

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #4 Posted by Walter B on 22 Oct 2009, 12:24 p.m.,in response to message #3 by Martin Pinckney Quote: There is something to be said for the old TI way of doing things ... with the INV key that worked with any other key sequence where it made sense. HP had f^-1 on the 65 once. But it was dropped in later models. Maybe too challenging? Or a waste of key space? General shift keys are more versatile, since they may be used for inversions, but they don't have to be used for this. See e.g. the 34C.

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #5 Posted by Mark Storkamp on 22 Oct 2009, 3:06 p.m.,in response to message #4 by Walter B My first HP was a 34C and I was amazed at the number of functions it had. My second (and still favorite) was my 41C(x) (and one of the main reasons for getting an iPod). If you would take away the 'h' key on the 34C and use the combination of both 'f' and 'g' to enable the black characters on the bottom edge of the key (the 'h' functions), you would free up one more key, giving you 4 more functions available right on the keyboard. Of course, pressing [user] and having an overlay magically appear (i41CX+) does nearly the same thing.

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #6 Posted by Walter B on 22 Oct 2009, 3:10 p.m.,in response to message #5 by Mark Storkamp Of course, some magic helps a lot in keyboard design. Pull out your wands! <;-)

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #7 Posted by Mike T. on 22 Oct 2009, 4:31 p.m.,in response to message #5 by Mark Storkamp I found the HP34C very very powerful but never quite got to grips with the key layout - you can have too much of a good thing. Interestingly you can accomodate all the HP34's functions with just two function keys using the same keyboard layout as the new HP20B

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #8 Posted by Paul Dale on 22 Oct 2009, 5:41 p.m.,in response to message #7 by Mike T. Quote:I found the HP34C very very powerful but never quite got to grips with the key layout - you can have too much of a good thing. Interesting, my first HP was a 34c in 1979/1980 and that died after a couple of years -- it was the solder less model and I attempted to fix it without really having a clue. Anyway, I just recently got a replacement for this and I find that I still have some finger memory for most of the functions. Amazing after all these years and different models in the meantime. - Pauli

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #9 Posted by 聲gel Martin on 22 Oct 2009, 2:37 p.m.,in response to message #2 by Mark Storkamp Quote: Somewhat less intuitive would be grouping 1/x, sqrt, y^x and x^2 on a single key as well Indeed less intuitive but somehow related, that's true. The hyperbolics have the advantage of being "almost" the same as the circular trigonometry, and thus much simpler to remember. I remember getting all over the THREE shift keys on the HP-67.. until the 41 came out and I marveled at the elegance of its design - to me still unparalelled (sorry, I'm definitely a 41 inconditional). The 35S has a HYP prefix key, akin to the shift2 in your example. Best, AM.

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #10 Posted by 聲gel Martin on 22 Oct 2009, 2:51 p.m.,in response to message #9 by 聲gel Martin that reminds me of this FIVE (no less) SHIFT-key design that, thank goodness, is only an April 1st joke :) http://209.197.117.170/item/product2.htm

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #11 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 23 Oct 2009, 2:52 a.m.,in response to message #1 by 聲gel Martin Quote: SHIFT, SHIFT, SIN = SINH SHIFT, SHIFT, SHIFT, SIN = ASINH Did I hear too many shifts? Not too many, but SHIFT, then SHIFT again simply turns it off;-) Changing that standard behaviour doesn't seem to be the way to go IMHO. Quote:You can't have it all - it's rather fast once you get the hung of it. Why not? There are other ways to get a HYP keyboard. The easiest way is to use a HYP user keyboard. However another approach could be SHIFThold. If you manage to catch multiple key presses, you could assign the HYP fcns to the SHIFThold level;-) HTH Raymond

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #12 Posted by 聲gel Martin on 23 Oct 2009, 6:31 a.m.,in response to message #11 by Raymond Del Tondo Hi Raymond, long time no speak - hope you're doing well. Actually SHIFT SHIFT works like a charm, the second one does not turn the first one off... assigning the function to the "10B" keycode does the trick. Sure there's multiple ways to implement it and everybody has his preferred one :-) Using a HYP user keyboard is good as well but it conflicts with an existing User keyboard (not enough real state). The SHIFT-Hold requires some operator skills, afraid it wouldn't pass the test of easiness for some :-O Best, 簍

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #13 Posted by Gerry Schultz on 23 Oct 2009, 2:57 p.m.,in response to message #12 by 聲gel Martin I remember back in the PPC days a way to assign functions synthetically to the shifted-shift button on a 41C. I used it for the packing command but any function could be assigned. Gerry

 Re: 41: All that HYPe about...Message #14 Posted by 聲gel Martin on 23 Oct 2009, 3:40 p.m.,in response to message #13 by Gerry Schultz Exactly. The SandMath uses a MCODE form of the same technique, no more no less.

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