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HP Forum Archive 18

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Elektronika MK-152
Message #1 Posted by Joerg Woerner on 18 Feb 2008, 9:43 p.m.

It is crazy!!!

http://www.datamath.net/Dennis.jpg

http://www.datamath.net/Dennis_1.jpg

Only problem: 220V...

Regards, Joerg

      
Re: Elektronika MK-152
Message #2 Posted by Eric Smith on 18 Feb 2008, 9:59 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joerg Woerner

Quote:
Only problem: 220V...

Converters are easy enough to find.

      
double entendre
Message #3 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 18 Feb 2008, 10:39 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joerg Woerner

or maybe triple.

I just wanna take it out of it's package and run a long program on it.

Look at her, she deserves 220, and i'm gonna give it to her.

            
Re: double entendre
Message #4 Posted by Walter B on 19 Feb 2008, 2:36 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by db (martinez, ca.)

:D

And you may even choose: Russian or Latin (see lower left button) d;)

                  
Re: double entendre
Message #5 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 19 Feb 2008, 6:53 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by Walter B

Yes, that's what I had guessed from RUS/LAT.

Some other keys:

KATALOG, REGISTR, NOP... I would guess GRAD in the display stands for DEGREES angle mode. (I studied Russian alone for two weeks in 1980, but I quit because I had no pronunciation reference. I think that's enough to operate one of those Elektronikas, in case I get one :-)

Regards,

Gerson.

                        
Re: double entendre
Message #6 Posted by Jean-Michel on 19 Feb 2008, 1:04 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Bom dia Gerson,

don't you think that GRAD stands for... GRAD ? You sure know that Pi Radians = 180 degrees = 200 GRAD.

I hope I'm not wrong!

Até,

Jean-Michel.

                              
Re: double entendre
Message #7 Posted by Walter B on 19 Feb 2008, 4:09 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Jean-Michel

Bonsoir Jean-Michel,

in Germany, your unit would be called GON or NEUGRAD (= "new degrees"), while Pi (Radians) = 180 Grad (sic!) = 200 gon. So I'd expect Russian Grad equals German Grad -- but for sure we have a Russian forum member who knows :-)

                                    
"Frivolous" answer to Russian Grad
Message #8 Posted by Karl Schneider on 19 Feb 2008, 6:01 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Walter B

Quote:
in Germany, your unit would be called GON or NEUGRAD (= "new degrees"), while Pi (Radians) = 180 Grad (sic!) = 200 gon. So I'd expect Russian Grad equals German Grad -- but for sure we have a Russian forum member who knows :-)

The Russian Grad, of course, would be Leningrad.. wait, Stalingrad .. nope, Leningrad again... whoops, once again Saint Petersburg!

:-)

Seriously, though, the history behind all those name changes is anything but frivolous.

Hmm, I'd been long aware that "Grad" was the German term for degrees of temperature, but it somehow had never occurred to me that this term would cause ambiguity for measuring angles.

Was there any difference in the annunciators of non-German calc's sold in German-speaking markets? On German typewriter keyboards, the standard positions of "Z" and "Y" are typically interchanged because the frequency of usage of those two letters is reversed between German and English. However, it's easier to move keys and keycaps than to fabricate display units...

-- KS

                                          
Very Old Grad
Message #9 Posted by Walter B on 19 Feb 2008, 7:21 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by Karl Schneider

Karl, your "frivolous" answer reminds me of a time when radical feminists fought for history to be renamed "herstory", neglecting the Greek roots of this word. Not everything sounding similar has the same etymology. I guess you know.

The "grad" in e.g. Leningrad derivates from old Russian "gorod" (= city), which in turn derivates from Scandinavian "gaard" (= fenced dwelling; English "garden" has the same origin). Remember once upon a time Russia was a Scandinavian plantation (well, I don't think these were the *same* people who sailed to America, but a nice idea ;). So, Nowgorod = Nygaard = Neustadt = Newtown -> Newton - here we are back to calcs again :)

AFAIK there were no English calcs "localized" to take care of the different names for angular units. I remember when I became aware "GRAD" on a calc meant something different than I had expected. We took a look to the manual, found out, shook our heads (oh, these Americans, why do they use names which are defined already?!) and learned to live with it. One point more to distinguish us from the plain folks who were unable to use such elaborated tools 8)

Edited for adding Newton.

Edited: 20 Feb 2008, 2:09 a.m.

                                    
Re: double entendre
Message #10 Posted by Chuck on 19 Feb 2008, 8:07 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Walter B

I'm not a Russian, but I do have an MK 61. The different angle settings are P Grd and r (although with the correct russian letters). Here's what happens in each mode with ArcSin[1]:

P mode gives 1.5707963 (pi/2) Radian (or polar) mode

Grd mode gives 100 (good old gradians)

r mode gives 90 (familiar degree mode)

CHUCK

                                          
Re: double entendre
Message #11 Posted by Walter B on 20 Feb 2008, 2:32 a.m.,
in response to message #10 by Chuck

Chuck wrote

Quote:
good old gradians
At the place I live, these "gradians" are hardly used in any field of application nor were they widespread in the last decades. I mean, everybody knows and talks about 90° = 90 Grad = 90 degrees and its multiples and fractions, noone I meet deals with 100 gon. I'd have even forgotten the "gon" (your "gradian") for long without my calcs. Seems these units live overseas. Any observations about their habitat? Maybe I'm totally wrong ...
                                                
Grad-Gon
Message #12 Posted by George Bailey (Bedford Falls) on 20 Feb 2008, 4:25 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Walter B

400 Grad or Gon for a full circle are used in surveying in Germany.

At least it was still taught back in the 80s.

It came down to us from the French revolution with the metric system.

Edited: 20 Feb 2008, 4:50 a.m.

                                                      
Re: Grad-Gon
Message #13 Posted by Walter B on 20 Feb 2008, 6:04 a.m.,
in response to message #12 by George Bailey (Bedford Falls)

Just checked: Gon is a legal unit in Germany, but not part of the SI. To avoid confusion with the different "grad"s as in some previous posts, the unit is named "gon" by ISO -- so our old calcs are all illegal ;)

Looks like a dying unit here, "just used in surveying still" (as claimed in German Wikipedia).

                                                
Re: double entendre
Message #14 Posted by Chuck on 20 Feb 2008, 10:16 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Walter B

Well, I have egg on my face. I should have remembered that 45-degrees is a 100% grade. The brain matter is slowly fading. Thanks Stefan for resparking those cells. My post is now rendered useless.

PLEASE, READ NO FURTHUR!!!!!!!

Old post. It's unfortunate that gradians aren't used more. They actually make a lot more sense than degrees. For instance, if you are driving up a hill at a 10% grade, you're at a 10-grad angle. 50-grad angle means half-way (50%) to vertical, 100-grad is vertical (100%). In some cases they make much more sense than the completely arbitrary degree measurement (thanks to the Babylonian base 60 system I presume). Gradians, like radians, are more "natural" measurements, if you consider percentages natural. However, I don't see us willing to adopt the gradian measure as "standard". And we're called backwards on this side of the big pond for continuing to use the foot-pound-gallon system. Anyone prefering to use degrees should also be called "old school". Bring on the mks-grad system. :)

Edited: 20 Feb 2008, 12:27 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

                                                      
Re: double entendre
Message #15 Posted by Stefan Vorkoetter on 20 Feb 2008, 10:39 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Chuck

Afraid not:

A 10% grade is 5.71 degrees, or 6.35 gradians.

A 50% grade is 26.57 degrees, or 29.52 gradians.

A 100% grade is 45 degrees, or 50 gradians.

Percent grade is just slope (i.e. rise/run, or opposite/adjacent).

Thus, angle equals arctan(percentGrade/100).

Gradians are simply degrees times 10/9. They don't correspond to grades any better than degrees or radians do.

Stefan

                              
Re: double entendre
Message #16 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 19 Feb 2008, 7:57 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Jean-Michel

Bonsoir Jean-Michel,

I think you are right. Actually, 1 GRAD (GON) is equivalent to 0.9 degrees:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%2C_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B0%2C_%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0

(Google translator might be of help :-)

On the other hand, GRAD, as on the display, might be short for GRADUS, that is, DEGREE.

Regards,

Gerson.

                        
Re: double entendre
Message #17 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 19 Feb 2008, 8:15 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Hi Gerson; not sure what youall are referring to but i know that on the MK-61 (which the 152 is based on); P = RADs / rPA = GRADs / r = DEG. I only know that because i have a 61, and a 54 too. I don't even have one week of russian though :-( so i'll take your word on the rest of the language. - d

                              
Re: double entendre
Message #18 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 19 Feb 2008, 8:35 p.m.,
in response to message #17 by db (martinez, ca.)

Thanks, db!

Your post and Chuck's definitely clarify the matter. P (Russian R) stands for Radians; rPA (GRA) stands for gra gradians and r (Russian G) stands for Gradus, that is, degrees. (I guess the Russian word for degrees is gradus, although apparently gradian is also used).

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